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oomis1105- i fully agree with your comments!!
daas yochid- look in “beitzah” ‘bais amud bais” rashi on “koach deheteira odif”
R’feivel Kohn did an unbelievable job job in writing “Badei Hashulchan” (trying to follow the mishne berurah’s example).
apushutayid- The opinion of most rishonim and the shulchan aruch is that most eiruvim today aren’t kosher. Thus, by relying on other rishonim you are relying on a kula. The math is pretty simple. I’ve actually spoke to a rav who is a rav hamachshir on an eiruv and he said the same thing. These rabbonim might tell you that it is a kula that we can use,especially because the minhag has been that way for some time now, but it is a kula nonetheless. As for your koach diheteira adif argument, are you kidding? Of course as rashi points out being makil on something is more impressive than being machmir, but does that mean you can just go lekula anytime you have a shaalah?! On the contrary, rashi’s entire point is that it take so much more knowledge to be makil than to be machmir, so he’s actually saying the opposite.
iyhbyu- “I’m no expert in eruvin, but I’m pretty sure that everyone agrees to the concept, seeing as there is a whole mesechta in shas about it. ” So what you’re saying is I don’t know the facts, but I know I’m right and you’re wrong.
a woman outside bklyn and haifagirl- The poskim only talk about maaris ayin on fake milk with meat, there is no issue with having fake milk after meat.
I think we have to keep in mind that eating a meat sandwich with a vegan/parev cheese or a meat meal then parev ice cream is not a loophole…both the non dairy creamer and vegan cheese have no dairy in it what so ever…so not sure why you would need a loophole…
look in “beitzah” ‘bais amud bais” rashi on “koach deheteira odif”
That has no bearing on our discussion. You are implying that it is better to follow a p’sak which is more lenient; Rash”i is saying that one needs more expertise to issue a lenient p’sak, but that does not mean that any stringent p’sak comes from ignorance, chas v’shalom!
R’feivel Kohn did an unbelievable job job in writing “Badei Hashulchan” (trying to follow the mishne berurah’s example).
I specifically meant in ?”? in the ??????? s.v. ???? ????? ????. He discusses the issue of how common fake dairy is today compared to the times of the ??”? and ?”?.
I think we have to keep in mind that eating a meat sandwich with a vegan/parev cheese or a meat meal then parev ice cream is not a loophole…both the non dairy creamer and vegan cheese have no dairy in it what so ever…so not sure why you would need a loophole…
First of all, I agree that it’s not a “loophole”. But the burger is a serious shailoh of maris ayin. The ice cream is much more lenient because it’s not eaten with the meat.
1: Name the Rav. I can name many “rabbonim”, and even claim to have spoken to them and make claims in their name.
2: R’ Menashe Klein when he issued his psak for eruv in brooklyn, said it is kosher eruv and 100% muttar to carry within it, not “kosher bidieved”. In his opinion, it is a perfectly valid eruv. You are free to disagree.
I am not taking sides on the psak, just taking issue with the free use of the term “kula” and its careless (or subtle) use casting aspersions on poskim.
ROB, the problem with the chumros is when people begin to believe the chumrah IS the halacha, and that the kula is clearly an avoidance loophole to get out of doing the REAL halacha (which I know for a fact is the negative connotation several posters in the CR think, when they hear “kula”).
How do you decide what is a chumra and what is a kula? I categorize it by learning the sugya and determining what the halacha should be according to the normal rules of p’sak. A chumra is when one is more stringent than necessary, a kula is when one follows a (legitimate) lenient opinion which, although not “standard” (I know, that word is much too vague) can be relied on in case of need. Both (IMO) are often abused.
I’m not sure how anyone can know “for a fact” what someone else is thinking, especially if they don’t say it.
There is a MEHADRIN kosher KFC in Yerushalayim.
It’s YUMMY and the Kosher chickens don’t even care at all about Colonel Sanders picture on the sign!
I got a real kick outta eating KFC & Burger King in Israel! it was yumm-o! 🙂
clearly rashi (interpreting the gemoro) ascribes a keener understanding of halacha to the meikel.
The meikel perforce has a keen understanding, but not necessarily more than the machmir. Rash”i that writes the power of the osrim is merely not a proof. But still possible. Would you say that in the many cases that R’ Moshe Zt”l was machmir, he had a less keen understanding? (rhetorical question)
I have to research ??????, off the top of my head, it’s specific to that ????.
See for example, ???? ????? on ??? where he makes it clear that the ?????? went out of their way to find a ???? because of the tremendous difficulty involved.
As far as agunos, ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???!
Yes, I have never seen maris ayin discussed in terms of milk after meat.
And on that topic:
My brother was at a wedding, and when desert was brought out, there was coffee and creamer.
The fellow sitting near him asked if the milk was pareve.
My brother said, “mistama”.
Fellow: Mistama? Mistama?
Brother (to himself): You ate the fish, you ate the meat. Mistama this is also kosher.
Finding a hetter does not necessarily mean digging up a kula.
PBA. Your brother should have told him the milk is chassidishe shechita only.
Admittedly, when I was in Israel, I had to do a bit of mental re-adjusting before I was able to eat in the KFC there. 🙂
The Wolf
@newhere-
How does not being an expert in eruvin= I don’t know the facts, but I know I’m right and you’re wrong.???
Are you saying you are an expert in eruvin? oh I’m sorry, I didn’t realize that one of the few experts in eruvin spends his time in the YWN CR.
Are you saying the whole concept of eruvin is a kula? Because that’s all I’m trying to say. And if you are actually saying that, maybe it’s time to open up any halacho sefer that has to do with eruvin.
And please don’t throw out “most rishonim and “a Rov” without bringing down sources.
apushutayid- I will not name the rov because I would imagine he would not appreciate me doing so. I understand that you have no reason to believe an anonymous poster in yw coffee room. It was not the main point of my argument. Maybe we have a different understanding of the term kula. I am not saying an eruv is only kosher bishaas hadchack (i assume that’s what you meant, an eruv can’t be kosher bideved, that makes no sense). All I am saying is that using standard derech hapsak it would come out that one should not use an eiruv that relies on the 600,000 hetter. That being said, every competent rov can make their own determination whether or not to use the hetter. A rov can say to only use it bishaas hadchack, or he can to say to use it lichatchillah, because the minhag is like the yesh omirim, or whatever other reason he comes up with. The fact of the matter is, that is called relying on a kula, which your rov may tell you there is nothing wrong with.
something tells me if someone was to open a kosher KFC, Burger King, Dominos etc. In Broklyn there would be a lot of paying customers…people like what they can’t or don’t have, giving them a “kosher” access to the forbiden is a good business decesion….
Admittedly, when I was in Israel, I had to do a bit of mental re-adjusting before I was able to eat in the KFC there. 🙂
I actually believe that “the mental re-adjusting” required to eat in a kosher franchisee of a non-kosher chain restaurant is part of the reason that some have hashkafic issues with it. I find it difficult to articulate my personal (hashkafic) issues, which is why I haven’t commented much on it.
newhere,
I think that you and I are using the term “kula” differently than others. Apparently, many feel that the term “kula” implies that the person utilizing it is a “kal”. I certainly do not use it that way, and it seems to me that you don’t either.
rabbiofberlin,
I looked up the rule of ???? ????? ????? ????. It very much seems the exception rather than the rule.
I found an interesting ??? ??? in ?”? ??’ ?”?, who asks why we need the rule of ???? ????? ????? ???? when we have a universal rule of ?????? ??? ??? ????? (according to most ??????, even the first day of ????? is ?????). He answers that since ????? is often at the expense of other ?????, such as ???? ??? or ???? ???, the normal rule of ?????? ???? ???? ???? does not apply; similar to the idea of ??? ????? ????.
something tells me if someone was to open a kosher KFC, Burger King, Dominos etc. In Broklyn there would be a lot of paying customers…people like what they can’t or don’t have, giving them a “kosher” access to the forbiden is a good business decesion….
I agree; I suspect that this also relates to part of the hashkafic issues that some have. If putting a famous name on a restaurant would improve the taste of the food, that would be one thing. I think, though that people are buying into the mass PR campaigns, and the attraction is not the taste, but the fact that now we can have what the rest of the world has. I think that this is unhealthy (besides all the fat!), a kind of collective low self esteem.
When Subway in Brooklyn opened, some people told me that it was no better than any previous kosher deli (which might be why it eventually closed).
As a marketing ploy, it might be great to get people in, but the food’s got to be good at the right price for any place to stay in business.
DY – thats correct about the haskafik issue
real-brisker,
Thank you.
I think we have to understand that these are subtle sensitivities which can be difficult to articulate, and not everyone will have them. If someone does not feel this way, it does not mean that there’s any reason to chas v’sholom look down at them. I don’t mean that you do, just that people seem to be very sensitive to any “stringent” opinion as a put-down, even if it’s only meant to share one’s thoughts.
The name “Subway” is associated with a restaurant chain that sells non kosher Sub sandwiches. This leads to a hashkafic issue among some, when this chain opens a store where the food is under a reliable hechsher. Those who do have this hashkafic issue, do they also have a problem with non kosher clothing made kosher (slits etc. properly repaired)? Do they have an issue with a clothing store known to push the envelope of pritzus that opens a store on 13th Ave in Boro Park that sells “kosher” clothing? (These are 2 different questions).
@daas yochid-
As I said on here previously, they aren’t just putting up a name and it magically tastes better. The franchise prescribes uniform standards for food preparation, along with cleanliness standards, and building design (which just adds to the aesthetic appeal).
A kula is not anytime that there is any sort of machlokes, at least that is not how it’s used by most people.
The name “Subway” is associated with a restaurant chain that sells non kosher Sub sandwiches. This leads to a hashkafic issue among some, when this chain opens a store where the food is under a reliable hechsher. Those who do have this hashkafic issue, do they also have a problem with non kosher clothing made kosher (slits etc. properly repaired)? Do they have an issue with a clothing store known to push the envelope of pritzus that opens a store on 13th Ave in Boro Park that sells “kosher” clothing? (These are 2 different questions).
I can only answer for myself;
1) definitely not
2) I don’t know enough details; how the name brand is really perceived, are people attracted to the brand because of the negative associations or because of the quality, and mostly, whether the clothing sold there pushes the envelope in tzniusdik clothing (I do not wish to discuss the details of that last point for reasons of tznius).
iyhbyu- I am by no means an expert in eiruvin, and I did not mean to imply that. My point was that I and a few others pointed out precisely what the “kula” in eiruv is, and you responded with “I’m pretty sure that everyone agrees to the concept, seeing as there is a whole mesechta in shas about it” You responded to a very specific argument with a generality that i’m sure everyone agrees to the concept. In essence, you were saying I don’t know the sources but I feel confident that I’m right and you’re wrong.
I’m not sure what sources you’re looking for, I think we’ve made pretty clear what we’re trying to say. But I’ll try again. The Mechaber in siman 345 seif 7 says in his first deah that a street which is 16 amos wide makes a city into a reshus harabim. He then brings a yesh omrim that says if there aren’t 600,000 people (in the city or the street; see igros moshe) it is not a reshus harabim. When the mechaber brings down 1 deah and then a yesh omrim he is paskening like the 1st deah. Since most cities in the U.S. have streets wider than 16 amos, I said, and others did as well, that according to the first deah most cities cannot have an eiruv. No one said the whole concept of eiruv doesn’t work. The biur halacha then quotes many rishonim (13 according to one of the posters) who agree with the mechaber, and many who don’t. Since the mechaber and the majority of rishonim hold that a city with a street wider than 16 amos can’t have an eiruv, and considering that we’re dealing with a diooraysa, I said that most eiruvin rely on a kula. Please point out exactly where I have erred and what’s bothering you. Please do not throw some general statement out or resort to personal attacks. What’s funny about this whole argument is that you would think daasyochid, myself, and others, are coming up with this radical chiddush. Speak to any knowledgeable rov, including those that carry, I guarantee they’ll say the same exact thing.
daasyochid- I agree with you that we have a different view of the term “kula” than most people on the site, but I don’t think we see exactly eye to eye on this one. If my rov were to tell me he holds of this kula, then I would carry without feeling guilty and even shelo bishaas hadchack. I don’t view the kula/chumra thing as what I should do vs. what I’m allowed to do.
daas yochid- Look up the sugya in “Keitsad Tsolim” (Pesochim) daf “ayin daled amud bais” (74B) and you will see that the gemoro indeed prefers to pasken lekuloh. There are other sugyos too.
edited
daasyochid- I agree with you that we have a different view of the term “kula” than most people on the site, but I don’t think we see exactly eye to eye on this one.
I agree. (Is that a paradox? 🙂 )
If my rov were to tell me he holds of this kula, then I would carry without feeling guilty and even shelo bishaas hadchack.
Then your rov would be agreeing to your use of the terminology.
@newhere-
Please read what I wrote.
If there is a city which has streets less than 16 amos (and less than 600,000 people) everyone agrees that one can can carry in it with an eruv.
I wrote everyone agrees to the CONCEPT of eruv, and that there are obviously eruvs which everyone agrees to.
(I’d also like to know where you are getting that all streets are 16 amos long, but that has nothing to do with what I was saying)
What’s the difference with all this arguing? If the food is unquestionably kosher, either eat it or don’t. But don’t take the taam away from other people who want to eat in these places. I was ecstatic when dunkin’ Donuts kashered their local franchise. And they are ecstatic, too, because it quadrupled their profits.
(I’d also like to know where you are getting that all streets are 16 amos long, …)
I think you mean wide – if you include the sidewalks (which you should; it’s part of the public thoroughfare) most streets are 16 amos wide.
What’s the difference with all this arguing? If the food is unquestionably kosher, either eat it or don’t. But don’t take the taam away from other people who want to eat in these places. I was ecstatic when dunkin’ Donuts kashered their local franchise. And they are ecstatic, too, because it quadrupled their profits.
So let me get this straight; you think that we should not be able to discuss the halachic and hashkafic issues involved because you won’t have the same taam when you go to DD? (which by the way, was not brought up here, if I recall correctly)
Also, why should you lose your taam if you feel that it is unquestionably kosher?
Daas~ I think you’re being unnecessarily harsh with oomis. I think she was speaking of having sholom here, & ‘live & let live’, of course within the bounds of halacha. IMHO
iyhbyu- Glad to see we agree. So what is the problem with saying almost all eiruvin rely on a kula? Is your argument that not all cities have a street 16 amos wide? Could you name a city that doesn’t have a street 32 feet wide?! (that’s using the most maikel view of an ammah) Of course there are situations where they do not have a street that wide, like a bungalow colony or camp, and that is why we said MOST eiruvin.
@newhere-
Read the posts. Seriously.
Gosh
iyhbyu- I did. Daasyochid said “As far as ???????, most neighborhood ??????? rely on several ?????. The most common ones are the definition of a ???? ????? (less than ???? ????) and ????? ????.” You responded, “The local eruv? Are you saying all eruvs are kulas? that would be too crazy to say, so where is local? Please don’t tell me NYC. Because I don’t want to have to explain that there is a world outside of NY again. ” It seems you had some kind of issue with saying most eiruvin rely on a kula, care to explain?
1) Almond milk is not artificial and can be made at home
This depends on your definition of “artificial.” In terms of “milk,” almond milk is definitely artificial. It doesn’t come from a cow or any other animal.
I’m not sure what being made at home has to do with anything. Could you please explain?
Daas. Why not? I don’t have an opinion either way since I have no hashkafic issue with a Subway that has a hechsher. Does it bother you whenn going up the aisles of a heimishe grocery that you see “stickers” on malt o meal cereals, hersheys twizzlers, mike and ikes candies and dozens of other products?
@newhere-
all ? most
“‘live & let live”
Theres no live and let live in halacha. Kol yisrael arivim zeh lazeh. If someone is doing an aveira it affects me.
mosherose~ selective reading much?!
“‘live & let live’, of course within the bounds of halacha.” please read the WHOLE sentence, duh. this was my comment in relation to people being able to choose whether or not to eat in restaurants with a reliable hashgacha, re: oomis’ post: “If the food is unquestionably kosher, either eat it or don’t.”
Daas~ I think you’re being unnecessarily harsh with oomis. I think she was speaking of having sholom here, & ‘live & let live’, of course within the bounds of halacha. IMHO
I never tried to stop anyone from eating anywhere, nor do I look down at anyone who eats in a Subway. I have my opinions about why it’s not the best thing; if someone agrees with me, fine. If not, also fine. It bothers me, though, that some people seem to feel that I have no right to express my opinions in a public forum such as this one if it’s more stringent than theirs.
Daas. Why not? I don’t have an opinion either way since I have no hashkafic issue with a Subway that has a hechsher.
If you’re asking why I have an issue with Subway and not with fixing clothing, it’s because I get the feeling (and I know I could be wrong) that the main appeal of a kosher Subway, KFC or McDonalds is that now we can “be like the goyim”. We should be happy enough with our own identity as Yidden. Fixing clothing is not related to this.
Does it bother you whenn going up the aisles of a heimishe grocery that you see “stickers” on malt o meal cereals, hersheys twizzlers, mike and ikes candies and dozens of other products?
No
rabbiofberlin,
(If I understand your point correctly) if you’re right, then in every ?????? in ?”?, we should pasken ?????. And in every ?????? in the ???????, we should pasken ?????.
We don’t.
I’m sorry I didn’t address your post earlier; I had missed it.
@daas yochid-
As I said on here previously, they aren’t just putting up a name and it magically tastes better. The franchise prescribes uniform standards for food preparation, along with cleanliness standards, and building design (which just adds to the aesthetic appeal).
As I’ve said, I don’t know for certain what the appeal is, but I have my suspicions; probably, the attraction is different for different people. I’ve also said that these are subtle points, and although I have my opinion, I’m not negatively judging any particular individual who goes to Subway.
A kula is not anytime that there is any sort of machlokes, at least that is not how it’s used by most people.
I agree. I am not suggesting that the term be used anytime there is a more stringent opinion. I am using the term, as well as the term “chumra”, on an individual basis, when an opinion deviates from the halachic “norm” as determined by learning through the “sugya”. Many people use the terms as a deviation from how halacha is practiced by the majority. I have no problem with it; it’s just semantics, I just think that someone should explain how (s)he uses the term so that (s)he is understood; that’s what I am now trying (again) to do.
I’m starting to feel guilty for ever eating there…
Heh. There’s a blog that I know that focuses on kashrus that sometimes makes me feel sorry that I eat or drink anything (including water). He manages to find a fault with just about everything you can imagine.
The Wolf
Hooray, it’s almost lunchtime! This thread is making me hungry too.
Wait a minute? An eruv lets you carry in the subway on Shabbos – or the MTA now offers kosher subway cars? Ich khap nisht…
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