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teenager- let me ask you a question:
why do you feel a need to befriend boys rather than girls? Why cant you just stick to girlfriends- there are thousands of nice girls out there. Why do you have to stick around with boys?
In the large high schools, it’s like a factory, everyone is a number, and alot of girls are lost in the shuffle and competition. Everything is marks and studying. If you are not smart or have LD you feel very different from everyone and look for a way to excell or feel good, so many go OTD. If there are issues the yeshivos do not have social workers or guidance counselors, they just have a mechaneches who is basically one of the teachers, who is not trained and is very harried and over worked and meets with each girl one time and that is it. The bottom line is that the school are way too BIG.
Teenager – I grew up in Monsey so I understand the scene you are talking about. I am 26, but I remember how things were changing when I was in high school. When I told my mother that drugs were prevalent, she was shocked. After a little while (and many details), she spoke to her boss, who was able to start a dialogue with schools and Rabbis. Thanks to my mother, a more proactive approach was taken (albeit not nearly enough and not universal enough, but my mother was instrumental in getting awareness up majorly).
I think one of the biggest problems is that coed socialization is considered such a taboo! It wasnt so taboo 50 years ago – why now? Our parents and grandparents socialized and found their spouses in a much more natural way.
It always irked me that throughout highschool all my teachers would say (in various different ways) “Boys are looking for one thing – so stay away” – and then 12th grade would hit and they would start talking about getting married. Whoa! Slow down – can we really change gears that quickly? Also, what changes from being forbidden to be involved in coed situations in April to graduating in June and being able to start dating. In my opinion, its bizarre.
I agree with cantoresque, that I would rather have my son have some pitfalls of supervised coed situations then out on his own. I know from my own experience, that those who came from yeshivish families and wanted to socialize in coed situations, ended up doing far worse things than those who were allowed to and were supervised. Would you rather you child be able to come to you and say “yes I want to hang out with this boy/girl but I want to do it here so there are less influences”? Do you really want your kid out on the street? Accepting them in your home does not mean you condone everything they do.
Also, when you forbid something, kids naturally want it more. I was much more enticed to drinking before I was 21. My mother allowed me to drink in her home and supervised. It meant that if I really felt like it, on Purim I could get really drunk but I would be home, surrounded by my family and not able to do bad things or get taken advantage of. I did drink but not get drunk.
The problem with NCSY events (I was a member) is that many of the events are highly unsupervised. There are a couple of chapter advisors watching hundreds of kids – if one wants to do something wrong, its easy to.
My advise to parents of teenagers is to supervise coed situations IN YOUR HOUSE or in the house of fellow concerned parents. This way, you have more control. Keep them in a fairly well lit, semi public area. They can have fun, socialize and not get into (much) trouble.
teenager,
I am not a teen but I have a question for you. I am trying to undersand why you and your friends hang out in bad places and do bad stuff. Is it because you are bored and therefore having a kosher hangout will simply get rid of the boredom and completely solve the problem, or is it that you all have other issues (I think you mentioned that you were abused – that is awful and I feel terrible for you) and you feel a need to rebel to let out your pain. If this is the case, then I don’t see how a kosher hangout will solve anything. Suppose there was 3 hours on motzai shabbos of bowling, pizza and interesting shiurim etc. After it ends would kids just go home or would they head straight to 7-11 or wherever else they currently hang out? I am not trying to knock your suggestion, just trying to understand it better.
I think a better solution may be for you individually to find an older adult you can respect and confide in. From your response to smartgal you seem to crave that. Maybe the rebetzin of a shul? Maybe a teacher you once had, whether in elementary school, high school or seminary. Maybe a neighbor or a friend of your mother? Maybe project yes can find you someone? Maybe smartgal?
It would seem to me that this would get to the root of the problem more than just being kept busy for a few hours in a kosher environment. Am I making any sense?
muchcommonsense, it is entirely normal for teenagers to be interested in the opposite sex. Halacha challenges us tro channel that interest into appropriate venues for expressing that interest, but asking a teenager, or any normal person for that matter, to explain/justify their interest in boys/girls is like asking someone to explain why they are interested in food.
Would organizing a coed situation cause people who would otherwise not be involved become involved?
Teenager, I feel for you and I feel for all the kids in this situation. I was recently there and so I know exactly what you are referring to. My suggestion to you is to find yourself a “big sister” or mentor who can help you, guide you, and most important hang out with you.
Starting a kosher hang out is alot of work and, as previous posters stated, many frum communities wont go for it. However, finding a mentor will help you in the short term and maybe you guys can bring oyur idea to fruition. In general, If you have a mentor it might be easier to do the right thing because you know that there is someone who cares about you and believes in you.
When I was growing up my older sister was my mentor- she had gone thru alot and therefore was able to help me. So one summer, when I was 18 and hanging out in the mountains for the summer (lifeguard) I made friends with a whole bunch of guys. When my sister came to visit fo rShabbos I wanted to show her my friends because I knew she wouldnt be judgemental. When we went out to bowling moztai Shabbos ( at 2 in the a.m.)I was busy getting to know some guy when another guy came over to my sister and told her how amazing she is for what she’s doing and how he wishes he would have had someone like that for him when he was in highschool! p.s.- I never spoke to the guy after that and my girlfriends were so impressed and turned on to Judiasm that my kollel wife sister was so cool and non-judgemental and willing to party.
Another mentor that I had brught over some books for me to read when I was under house arrest (by my parents) and suspended from school. She also hung out with me when I needed some support and some good, clean fun.
Without my mentors I dont know where I’d be today- there were so many people that helped me alog those crazy years and I guess this is a good time to say thank you to all those out there who care about Hashems lost and hurt children.
I’m sorry for rambling but I hope this letter can help someone out there. Also does anyone know if there are any mentoring programs in Lakewood – I would like to be a mentor and attempt to give back at least some of what I got.
Muchcommensense if you meant that last question you should really move to san fransico.
Teenager-well its a great thing to be jealous about a person’s sprirtual level 🙂 I’d love to learn with you or something how do we get in touch ?-& thanks I am looking into being a mentor for Project YES Ive heard about it .
tzippi … i am already way past 7th and 8th and therefore do not have much contact with them. I am in 12th and am relying on my experiences as a 7th and 8th grader, where these subjects (which include substance abuse btw, which is just as important as “sex education”)
charlie brown … while kids would still go do that, the desire would be alot less, because the aspect of “rebellion” would be removed. I still do not understand the problem with a relationship between guys and girls, and have not been able to get a concrete answer out of anyone.
SJSinNYC, couldn’t agree with you more … it almost seems to me that the teachers are scared of the subject themselves, and as a result, simply place a taboo on it. I am of the opinion that actually discussing things will lead to more confident and intellectually secure Jewish teenagers, something that unfortunately, we are severely lacking
TOHIGHSCHOOLGUY: “I still do not understand the problem with a relationship between guys and girls, and have not been able to get a concrete answer out of anyone.”
I will give you a concrete answer, It usually (more often than not)
leads to Isurim,(figure it out) & face it, although maybe most girls are looking for
positive attention, understanding, & just to talk, guys are not
(at least straight ones) guys can be manipulative (not talkin bout myself here)
persuasive, to a naive unsuspecting girl who’s just looking for a friend etc.
I’m sure some guys & girls will protest this as untrue but being truly
honest thats just the way it is.
It hurts my heart knowing the true nature of things as teenager has said
& zalmi, & I think (not being closeminded) that the co-ed idea is ultimately
counterproductive, however the seperate events like rabbi wallerstein bowling etc.. has the right idea, although there is not enough of those & it has to be more extensive than bowling & pizza, like baseball/basketball leagues, paintball, clay shooting, etc. (& interesting programs for the girls) so the guys are & girls are really having fun with their peers looking forward to the next fun thing all the while with learning & experienced speakers whom they can ask their question etc. you get it? this is it!!!
Kosher, Educational, & Fun.
this is my solution, teenager, borrowed from yours, slightly altered,
from co-ed to seperate (not less fun i hope).
Hope this happens I know guys who are w/ Rabbi wallerstein prog
& it keeps them entertained & out of trouble.(when they are there)
Hope I was of some help.
May Hashem have mercy on his nation & give them the wisdom to do what
is right in his eyes. Amen!
I do think separate hangouts is a good idea, but I am just not sure if it would work, like why would a kid want to hang out with girls if she can be with guys as well. maybe we can find a reason they would want to.
Again this is a safety issue. More than wanting them frum, I want my kids alive and safe. If I have to tolerate coed socializing to accomplish that, I’ll hold my nose and tolerate it. At the same I’ll make sure to teach my kids appropriate conduct around members of the other gender. I’ll make sure they are supervised, that the lights stay on at all times, that no one wanders off to a secluded area alone. Conversly if it’s the coed situations that presnt risks to my kid’s safety, they won’t go their either. It’s a far more dangerous world than it was 20 or 30 years ago. Parents can no longer assume that a gathering safe simply because it seemingly comports with Halachik strictures. I want my kids safe, healthy, happy and well adjusted and I’m certain G-d will forgive any slight tresspasses I comit along the way to achieving that goal.
cantoresq,
You might be right to an extent, but again, the end does not justify the means. We may not do things against the torah in order to achieve a good outcome. I would consult a Rav if such issues (hopefully not) do come up.
I agree with intellegent we cannot go about doing something wrong to achieve something good, especially making children think that doing what they are doing is ok, which it is not.
Intellegent, coed gatherings do not have to be against halacha. I never had an issue. My mother supervised us and kept us out in the open. Although she never made any rules, it was assumed we would not go into any bedrooms or any rooms with closed doors. We usually hung out in the kitchen or den and were easily visible. We did not violate a single halacha that I am aware of. Maybe if kosher coed hangouts were allowed, less kids would be involved in non kosher ones.
OK everyone, calm down! Of course I understand that pple are attracted to their opposite sex. I’m a human being too.
What I meant is that if you know something is wrong, why dont you keep away? Of course we’re attracted to various things that dont belong to us. But I meant to ask, why, if it’s wrong?
What if I’m attracted to the taste of pork, do I use that as an excuse to eat it? What if I have a crazy pull to watch porn, will I do it?
Of course not, cuz if you’re doing what’s right, you stay away.
This is not to say that making conversation with a girl is like eating pork, but you get my point. When something is not right, no matter how we yearn for it, we stay away!
Too bad!(or too good!) You’re Jewish, you gotta stick to your own gender friends. Whether you are attracted to others or not.
teenager: just a btw- you’re writing that your boyfriends are more caring and trustworthy than girl friends.Of course- bec. they’re boys and you’re a girl! Thats the way pple act when it comes to opposite gender! Many times it’s a beautiful cover up. They dont act so nice to the boys they know, only to the girls.
I work with insurance companies, and who do you think are the nicest phone reps of course? THE MEN! because I’m a female. And it’s only natural for men to act super nice to a girl!
And what you’re writing about me not understanding you as a teenager, BTW- I just came out of teenage land myself! I’m very young and I remember my teenage years all too well. I had the same difficulties to deal with like any other teenager. But I was brought up knowing that boys dont belong to our group of friends. Of course we’re friendly them, but we dont run looking for warmth and love to boys.
This is a big mistake of today’s youth. We think we’ll find love in boys. There are countless stories of girls who didnt find love and warmth until they met that boyfriend. Until they were married a while later and were only abused and ridiculed by their “once upon a time boyfriend”.
You need to find someone to talk to, and I mean a professional. You need to find your affection and attention elsewhere.
SJSinNYC- you’re very lucky and your parents are even luckier! You sound like you grew up hundreds of years ago if your relationships continued kosher! Today we’re not so fortunate, if you dont keep fully away, it’s no good. Kids arent so honest/scared today. There are too many relations that end up in trouble. I wouldnt risk it with my kids.
muchcommonsense – I wouldnt neccesarily say that my mother and I were lucky. We found something that worked for us. My mother believes in open communication and wanted me to come talk to her even if I did something wrong. Because of her unending love and trust I never really did “bad things” because I had no need to.
Once, when I was 17, my friend who only had her permit picked me up. My mother commented “Oh how nice she got her license” and I didnt dispell that notion. A year later I was so overcome with guilt that I confessed to my mother. Thats the worst thing I did as a teenager.
Just and FYI – I’m 26. I still clearly remember the teenage years and what was going on. I always found that the more restricted girls were, the more wild they went when they “let loose.” My modern orthodox friends might have made out with their boyfriends, but my yeshivish friends progressed much farther…(not that all or even most of my friends dated in high school, but of those that did…)
My mother’s rule was no dating in high school. So I didnt. It didnt really bother me because I was more interested in snowboarding and going to Yankee games and playing chess (yes I’m a dork). I met my husband when I was 19 in school and it all worked out from there.
teenager – if you are looking for someone to talk to, you are welcome to contact me. (I’ll post my email address if you want) I’m not perfect (nor yeshivish if thats what you are looking for), but I understand where you are coming from.
muchcommonsense,
Who is not calm? By the way as a general rule, I find that when people are told to
“CALM DOWN”, they tend to get even tenser!
teenager,
As far as I know, there is nothing wrong with me right now. I’ve heard from people a lot smarter than me and you who criticize very big kiruv organizations for doing things that are not so Kosher to bring people closer to yiddishkeit. I am not judging you about what you are going through and hope you will come out of it a lot better than you were to begin with, but just know that as i’ve said before, The end does not justify the means.
It sounds like you are all coming from modern homes – well let me tell you something – coming from the chasidishe world – and a frum ubringing – the torah and gedolim do not allow coed before marriage. I never spoke to any boys ,or even had such desires before marriage – I had 2 sit ins with my chassan – THATS ALL!!! And I am baruch hashem very happily married – couldn’t be better – take a poll – its a fact…. chasidishe ppl always had the divorce rate much lower then the rest of jewish sects. And its not because ppl were afraid of divorce stigmas – it is because we are happily married!!! This is the right torahdige way… there is no question about it. NO COED!!!
SJS- Good for you! Really! But you cant deny that this can only work with strict supervision like you had from your mom. Teenager(the writer) seems to have it a bit wrong, and that’s what I’m trying to prove to her. True love and affection does not come from a boyfriend, even if it seems so at first. It should come from an older, trusted parent or other adult. And if someone’s lacking that, then a boyfriend isn’t such a great idea after all. They dont have real love that way and they dont have the supervision that they need that way. Without supervision, I don’t want to think what this relation can bring to. Kids today arent so strong to do what’s right.
My dating, though much different than S was probably closer to hers than most other people on this post. I met my husband 4 times. Each one was quite a few hours but it was still “just” 4 formal meetings. The fifth time we met was before the L’chaim. I went to see his family (I had already met his parents) and then he drove me home. We went to see his grandmother and then was the L’chaim.
We are B”H very happily married. Our parents both checked each of us out before hand and there was no need for more than that.
FY”I, I just read a book about R’ Shmuel Aharon Yudelevitch (it’s really good, written in story form not like a typical gadol book…) anyway, the girl he married was the daughter of R’ Aryeh Levine. For 3 years he spent a lot of time in their house, basically lived there and when R’ Aryeh Levine suggested his daughter as a shidduch, R’ Shmuel Aharon said yes but he needs to see her first! After spending THREE years in the house, he never NOTICED her!
I am not saying that we can’t have different ways of going about a shidduch but don’t think that it is necessary, natural, or ideal to get to know boys upon boys upon boys (and vice versa) befoer you get married!
Teenager,
I really suggest that you forget about getting help from this blog and either email smartgal or whoever else you think can help you as there really is answers and help for your situation. Don’t give up but don’t keep your hopes on this blog. It’s just for nice discussions and hearing opinions nothing more.
teenager,
You answered my questions about the hangout idea very well, and it now makes a lot of sense to me although as others have said I don’t think co-ed is the way to do it.
As for mentors, I don’t know much about project yes but isn’t the purpose of the organization to find mentors for kids in your situation? Does it not work the way its supposed to?
IMHO, I think that in addition to a mentor you would surely gain from professional help in dealing with the trauma of being molested. Have you ever received any professional help? Do your parents know about it and will they pay for therapy? I hope you don’t mind the personal questions – please don’t feel the need to answer if its too personal or painful to talk about.
Also, never give up no matter how many rejections you’ve gotten. You obviously have a great neshama the way you want to grow and help your friends grow. Keep reaching out and daven hard to have the strength not to give up. You can daven in your own words, Hashem will understand. And our tears and heartfelt tefillos can create amazing results. Big people sometimes get big tests and i’m sure that in the end you’ll pass with flying colors.
And one more thing – if you post an email address here, please be very very careful about who you reveal your identity to and who you actually phsically meet thru that address. Even a person who seems online to be a caring middle-aged choshuva person may just be a manipulative abuser who is out to gain your trust and then take advantage of you. I’m sure you know this well, but a reminder can never hurt.
There already is something for girls -Ohr Nava. There should be something similar for boys. Why does it have to be Co-ed?
S: You had no such desires before you were married? There’s something wrong with you then. Countless gedolim, for thousands of years, have said people have these desires, and need to control them. If you didn’t have them, obviously it’s an issue with you.
Also, don’t think that chassidim have it all nice without any issues. Believe me, I know many chassidim who do improper things also. When I lived in Brooklyn, I was once in a video store renting a movie. The owner told me that he had plenty of chassidish customers, and they didn’t rent the regular videos, if you know what I mean. He even showed me a surveillance photo from the downstairs area of a chassidish couple (in full chassidish levush) checking out his selection.
To add to Charlie Brown’s point, I think you should think twice before posting your email all together! It’s Daaaaangerous.
wow I feel so bad for you teenager for everytime you go on you have to answer so many posts. I do think there is something we can do about it, but it would have to be with the approval of a rav, and no rav would approve (understandably so) co-ed hangouts. But being that we are both teens maybe we can think of ideas to change some things. and S is the third letter of your name I?
Feif Un
FYI, I had NO such desires either. If you never tasted chocolate you can’t have the taava. If you never had a girl-boy relationship or even a “taste” of it you can’t have a taava. You might say that there is no kuntz to not have a taava if you were never exposed but we are not looking for “kuntzin”. We don’t believe in putting ourselves in Nisyanos. Just like we do our best to protect our physical health/safety we need to protect our spiritual especially something that could lead to such terrible ramifications.
teenager,
What you say to S is true. There is definitely a lot of problems in the chassidish world and all over. But there are problems wherever you go! That does not make the whole system bad.
intelligent, your analogy is ridiculous. These desires are a basic human nature, it’s the way Hashem created us. Ask any Rav if it’s normal to not have any urges before marriage, they’ll tell you everyone has them, and something is wrong if you don’t.
Feif Un: You are a boi
intellegent: you are a Girl
You will not agree on the issue of Taava. You are just too different (can it be any more obvious?)
(somewhat serious post)
Teenager’s point is if there is a Mutar way for guys and girls to Hang, they will (possibly) not do so in the back seats of cars or skating rinks (which leads to Baaaad “stuff”).
The worry is if it has a “Hashgacha”, those who would not have anything to do with the opposite gender may think its OK. I would go for supervised, following Halacha, but no “hashgacha”. That way there is “plausable deniability”. 🙂
Also, no-one would fundraise for the program, so you would have to find a sponsor who understands what is going on and is willing to pay for it (also not easy).
Good luck.
getting back to teenager’s suggestion is there anyone in a position to put her ideas into practice in Monsey (in a non co-ed setting, which she was agreeable to)? Unfortunately, I don’t think I can be much help, although I’d love to. I don’t have any cash to put out and I’m also not the outgoing extravert type-A personality that I think would be needed to organize this. Any other takers though? IMHO the s’char for this would be enormous.
I’m in for it in Flatbush if that helps…
lammed hey,
You are 100% right on your point that he is a boy and I am a girl!!!
Taavos are SO different. Of course girls can have taavas. But boys way more! It’s natural and nothing to argue about. Even if everyone has a natural taava, I think for girls it needs to be triggered and even once triggered for boys it’s way more intense.
I never had a taava before I was married and can say the same for all my friends!
BTW,
Just to mention a point that I think fits in here. Camp Sternberg had a policy that they had minimal rules. Their ideology was to have the campers improve based on good influence from staff and not on rules. they had rules but minimal. It did not work! Come to think of it doesn’t Rabbi Greenwald live in Monsey? Maybe he would be willing to be involved! I really don’t know much about him or anything but the little I know, I think he is involved in these things and he is NOT “Yeshivish”!
Rabbi Greenwald has had health issues recently, I don’t think he has strength right now.
intellegent
Member
cantoresq,
You might be right to an extent, but again, the end does not justify the means. We may not do things against the torah in order to achieve a good outcome. I would consult a Rav if such issues (hopefully not) do come up.
Posted 11 hours ago #
bored@work
Member
I agree with intellegent we cannot go about doing something wrong to achieve something good, especially making children think that doing what they are doing is ok, which it is not.
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First off, I don’t think i need to consult a rabbi on something so basic as my chidren’s safety. Second, the precendent is set; it’s called NCSY which is endorsed by rabbis whom I am machshiv.
Dear teenager,
from my (limited) expiriance in dealing with “teenagers” I found the main thing they need is simply someone to show that they “realy care”. Please let me know if I am right, or did I miss the boat.
I was thinking about NCSY too. But. My frame of reference re NCSY is well over 20 years old. NCSY was geared to focused, secular or more assimilated kids, from public schools and yes, Jewish schools, maybe Solomon Schechter types. I don’t know what’s going on now but is NCSY interested in or geared to reaching out to the kids in question? I’m sure that individuals are welcome and maybe the word should get out, but I don’t know if it’s ready to broaden its focus.
was thinking about NCSY too. But. My frame of reference re NCSY is well over 20 years old. NCSY was geared to focused, secular or more assimilated kids, from public schools and yes, Jewish schools, maybe Solomon Schechter types.
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I grew up in Suburban Detroit. NCSY was basically a social outlet for kids who attended the local co-ed day school. There were some non-religious kids who came to the events, and one chapter was located in a Chabad schul so there was an aspect of kiruv rechokim, but it was msot definitely a secondary emphasis, as far as I recall.
cantoresq, Southfield/Oak Park area?
Southfield. My family was one of the founders of the Young Israel of Southfield.
teenager,
thanks for your kind words. I will try to think of ideas, and if you can think of anything I can do to help, please let me know.
One thing to think about I think, is what someone mentioned before – that this hangout should be only for kids who have been doing worse stuff and it therefore will be a step up for them, not for kids who have never done bad stuff and would be heading downhill by coming. Do you agree? if yes, how can that be enforced?
Also, there is a Rabbi Blobstein in Monsey who has a program for boys who are struggling with their yidishkeit and I’ve heard that he is very successful. Maybe he can get this rolling. Do any of the guys you hang out with know him or are part of his program?
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