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reyitzchok2 response: you are correct the microwave issue was at least three years ago if not more. Rabbi Mehlman pulled the hashgacha (avenue j location)and the management team was canned after the owner of the franchise did not make business for three months as Rabbi Mehlman refused to reinstate the hecsher if the current staff would have remained in place. There is not one single dunkin donuts in flatbush that is supervised by the vaad or the ok.
BOOKWORM120 RE the baskin robbins within the store. Rabbi mehlman does not supervise, but requests that only kosher flavors be made available. beware though that the made to order baskin robbin cakes have zero supervision and can have trief filler or decorations. they also sell some premade cakes with StarD or kvh etc..
DY I have a question for you:
suppose talmid B”Sh asks a talmid B”H “Hi I am a talmid B”Sh can I marry a tzaros bitto”
what is the talmid B”H to answer?
To me it seems obvious he is to say “Yes as a Talmid B”Sh you are allowed to” (of course he can add but we hold he’s wrong, I’d play it safe etc etc)
Now, is there a greaer lifnei iver than telling someone they are allowed to do an issur!
Unless of course you maintain that talmid B”H MUST say “No you may not, though your Rebbi allows it, he is wrong and it is absolutly assur”
What do you say the talmid B”H should answer?
“We hold it’s assur” (according to my tzad l’hachmir).
Just to be clear, I do understand your position, that as long as I recognize that you are following a legitimate psak, I hold it’s muttar for you even if assur for me.
Lol at the analysis of the mindset of people who do or don’t eat cholov stam. For my part, that’s not even the discussion; it’s a discussion of lifnei iver.
I will say, though, that if my donut is chocolate glazed, and yours is Boston Creme, my donut is holier than thou’s. 🙂
Interesting discussion.
Agav, the DD by Cedarhurst on Rockaway Turnpike has only Cholov Yisrael whole and nonfat milk (the half and half is not) and its open 24 hours [someone goes even on YK and Pesach to check out – and it always has Jews there- r’l probably even on Shabbos!]. So if you want Dunkin Donuts and cholov yisrael milk – then that’s where you should go. Under the Vaad of 5 Towns and Far Rockaway (as mentioned above). Other places have cholov yisrael milk available – but I heard someone claim that by the fact that there is both at one location, then it upon being open is not cholov yisrael milk (ie the worker can just add from non-CY). I think that having only regular milk that is cholov yisrael that mitigates the issue. But I am not a posek, nor am I sure that one can’t rely on the milk at “mixed” DDs.
Note though that most syrups etc. are dairy (ie not CY) but under reliable hechsherim. The one that is parve upon that last time I checked (early in the summer) was vanilla (the klal is dairy until proven otherwise from having asked to look at a number of syrups – the chocolate syrup is dairy equipment to my recollection). A random klal for coffee stores in general is that vanilla syrup for coffee is usually kosher and pareve. Again I am not a posek. The donuts are made with powder as mentioned. I think few people (though I do know they exist) make exception for powdered – or maybe just for kids for example – either all or nothing. Actual cooked things is more complex as the microwave issue is real ( I know of a 2nd hand story – from the person who called the kashrus agency upon getting word one of the worker’s friend heated up their supper in the microwave) – it was outside of brooklyn/cedarhurst – the kashrus person went down, figured things out, and likely kashered the microwave [not sure exactly what was done but the baal machshir took immediate action to his credit]. Isolated incidents don’t necessarily ruin the kashrus l’halacha to my knowledge.
On the general argument, my two perutahs.
The American velt does not treat Cholov Yisrael as an issur gamur. Many kashrus agencies don’t kasher like it was devar issur for example (I heard this from a reliable source in the industry). Ignoring if milk might be now an issue of treifos, cholov stam is a machlokes rishonim/achronim to my understanding from hearing from those that learned it. There is one view that holds its a lo plug (no exceptions even if we are sure the milk does not have any non-kosher milk in it). There is a view that holds that if one is 100% sure that the milk is cow’s milk – there is no issur on it. Reb Moshe obviously held like one side (and the Chazon Ish agreed al pi sevara), and many others held the other opinion. I personally do not eat cholov stam – and try to be particular but l’maaseh unless you’re Rabbi is one of yichidim – there is general consensus to treat it is as a chumra (- note chumras are not automatically /usually baseless [as many blog convos mislead one to believe], many are halachically quite sound and preferable – think about this: if one finds 100 chumras that are kept by some and not others, when Eliyahu comes – not a few of those 100 will be correct and makelim will have done something wrong – not that it’s wrong in a punishment sense if based on sound logic but in a legal sense).
Assuming the previous paragraph is true (chumra vs kula), I believe the dinim that apply are like other situations where there are two places – one machmir, one makel. When one goes to a place that is machmir, there is (simplistically) a need to be machmir (even if one is from a place that is makel), and if one is machmir goes to one who is makel, one can’t be publicly machmir (they are allowed to follow their chumra privately.) This is of course talking about chumras – not if one felt that it was forbidden m’ikar hadin. But considering that Reb Moshe, , many rabbanim of yesteryear in America, Rav Belsky, Rav Ahron Kotler (see Mishpacha article from a few weeks back) the OU, YU, OK, Star-K etc etc. all say it is ok at least m’ikar hadin – no one really can say otherwise BIKAR HADIN. Maybe it is the right thing not to eat it, but it is not a certain wrong thing to eat. Therefore for a need, one can give to someone else without issue even if they are accustomed to treat it is as not Kosher. This would be though to give it to someone who is not particular. A person who is accustomed to not eat it would be forbidden to be given cholov stam even by a Talmid of Reb Moshe because the recipient they personally hold can’t be eaten (because of the concept that was mentioned in another post that someone who treats permissible as forbidden, makes the permissible forbidden – as long as it is soundly based – see discussion on melacha on Chanukah, gebrokts etc. – which cholov yisrael according to all is soundly based as many Rishonim/Achronim hold that it applies in all circumstances)
As for eruvin, the Brooklyn Eruv is major hock. But l’maaseh when one is machmir to not use an eruv, one CAN ask someone to carry something for them. If one holds there is no eruv/eruv is totally not reliable, then one cannot ask someone to carry – just like one can’t ask someone to do any other melacha on Shabbos. There are many opinions out there that are makel on Eruvin, and though one can’t rely on any and all makelim, I don’t think there is any eruv (unless poorly constructed) that is pasul to all opinions. If so, then fine. But I wonder if practically there is a problem of indirectly telling someone where a parsha sheet is in a place that has an eruv that is kosher to some valid shitta (even though for example l’halacha and to one’s own rav it is not reliable and a potential melacha d’oraissa.)
I would like to see if anyone has sources from contemporary poskim on these issues.
Can I make a coffee for my frum boss who is not machmir on CY? Good q.
My rav holds it is assur to ask someone who “holds of” the brooklyn eruv to carry for you because he holds it is completely passul and therefore no different than asking a non-frum Jew to carry in a place with no eruv at all.
On the other hand, in other places where there are “kosher eruvs”, he recommends being machmir and not carrying but he does allow someone who doesn’t carry to ask someone else to carry for him.
This is a classic case of Chumra vs. Din.
It has been mentioned in this thread that there are those who hold of chalav yisroel as a din rather than chumra. But I believe most people in today’s “yeshivish circles” who “keep cholov yisroel” do so as a chumra and not a din and therefore they can feed it to others. To prove that they are only being machmir, most, if not all, of the cholov yisroel people I know of would be meilkel to feed cholov stam to their kids when out going “out of town”.
Mod-42
2 points I’d like to clarify. My discussion with DY is not about asking someone to do somehting for you, rather limited to “lifnei iver” by telling him in, Lior’s example, say where to find Parsha sheets.
Secondly I’m curious does your Rav hold that ungvarer chasidim (followers of R” Menashe Klien) are allowed to carry i.e not for you? I have heard from R’ Belsky on several occasions that they may not, in which case of course its lifnei iver to direct them to Parsha sheets.
Ubiquitin:
1) Are they different? Even if I benefit, presumably it’s still the issur of lifnei iver, so if we assume that even klapei the machshil, it’s muttar for the nichshol, it should still be muttar.
2) Isn’t it conceivable that someone would hold the same way regarding cholov stam as R’ Belsky holds regarding the eruv?
I will bl”n post mareh m’komos on both sides of the issue if I have time later.
“even Rav Moshe says it should only be eaten in a shas hadchak and that a “baal nefesh” shouldn’t eat cholov stam.”
Rav Moshe would never matir TREIF in a shas hadchak or allow someone who is not a “baal nefesh” to eat TREIF. So certainly Rav Moshe held chalav stam was kosher in all instances.
However, everything else being equal, i.e., there are two containers of milk in front of you; one is cholov yisroel and one is cholav stam, Rav Moshe suggested that you go lifnei m’shuras hadin and drink the cholav yisroel. But if the chalav stam is freash and the cholav yisroel is not, or the cholav yisroel is finished, he permitted to drink the cholav stam…l’chatchila.
However, everything else being equal, i.e., there are two containers of milk in front of you; one is cholov yisroel and one is cholav stam, Rav Moshe suggested that you go lifnei m’shuras hadin and drink the cholav yisroel. But if the chalav stam is freash and the cholav yisroel is not, or the cholav yisroel is finished, he permitted to drink the cholav stam…l’chatchila.
Serious question on this. You are at a table and there is a container of Mehadrin Ice Cream and a container of Haagen Daze. According to this Shee-ta which should you eat
But if the chalav stam is freash and the cholav yisroel is not, or the cholav yisroel is finished, he permitted to drink the cholav stam…l’chatchila.
You’re not using the word “l’chatchila” in the typical way. I can technically say that in a case of pikuach nefesh, it’s muttar to eat chazzir “l’chatchila”, but that’s not the typical usage.
Also, “baal nefesh yachmir l’atzmo” might very well mean even if it’s necessary to forego milk. I know people who are allergic or lactose intolerant and manage okay without it.
DY I dint read your marei mekomos yet but as to your points:
1) I think they are the same but can hear more of a reason when you are essentially appointing a shliach to do somehting you view as an aveira even if him doing it is not an averia for the doer
2) Regarding cs not only is it conveivable I know some people (chasidim) who hold chalav stam treif
1) Ein shliach lidvar aveirah, so I think the issue is only lifnei iver.
2) The discussion started when someone who identifies himself as a chusid from Kiryas Yoel helped someone find a DD.
How about Krispy Kreme?
Now you’re talking major sha’as had’chak.
there is a kosher DD inside Shoprite on Ave I and McDonald. There you can also get cholov yisroel milk in your coffee if you ask for it, although this will not help with your doughnut.
What good is it if the DD offers Cholov Yisroel milk? All the keilim and equipment their using to prepare the drinks are Cholov Stam anyways.
DQB: How can a microwave be kashered? And why wouldn’t a single incident ruin its kashrus? The Chasidish velt (as well as some others) generally treat cholov stam as actual treif (i.e. no different than if you were visiting remote Africa and found milk in some hut.) In which case cholov stam is not simply being meikel on a chumra but rather violating an outright issur m’ikur hadin.
What good is it if the DD offers Cholov Yisroel milk? All the keilim and equipment their using to prepare the drinks are Cholov Stam anyways.
You can buy a coffee. The regular coffee is made in a parve coffeemaker.
How can a microwave be kashered? And why wouldn’t a single incident ruin its kashrus?
Machlokes, but some hold it’s enough to physically clean it, then let a cup of water boil until the oven is filled with steam. A single incident wouldn’t change the halachic rule of achazukei issur lo mechazkinan where it is applicable.
You can buy a coffee. The regular coffee is made in a parve coffeemaker.
Is buying an unflavored black coffee the only time you can avoid cholov stam in DD by using the cholov yisroel milk?
To note Lior, a very reliable source in Kashrus that is no fan of Cholov Stam – says you can buy black coffee from any coffee shop. And for a place that has CY milk, the milk container is not a problem if it only contains CY milk…obviously.
The issue of lattes when milk is steamed would be quite problematic from C”Y perspective when there are both milks. However, it is rare to make a latte with half and half – so I assume if all regular/non-fat milk is C’Y as in the case of Cedarhurst- the milk steamer would also not be a problem. The various syrups that are used that Cholov Stam are not added when using the steamer to my recollection.
I am chassidish leaning individual and a number of actual chasidim I’ve seen buy coffee from the DD in Cedarhurst. Not saying that is a proof.
The chasidish velt has rabbanim that treat cholov stam as treif…but not all. There are many heimish yidden (including Rabbanim) in Kashrus checking facilities that are cholov stam. They would not do the same for treif (Chas V’shalom – just making a point). As an aside, since Cholov Yisrael is d’rabbanan and (usually) a liquid -anyways there is more leniency in regards to kashering etc. ignoring the mekilim.
The real shaila by milk is treifos, which would make it treif mdoraissa. The issues are usually mitigated by Cholov Yisrael dairies that ensure the cows in the herds are ok. Nonetheless, it is such a strongly accepted practice to consume cholov stam in America that I do not think any major Rabbanim seem to be making a big deal about it.
DQB: Not eating a chicken and cheese sandwich is also a d’rabbanan.
I believe that Yeshiva University’s Rabbi Herschel Schachter, who is a Rosh Yeshiva at RIETS, is a das yochid in maintaining that all milk in America, both cholov yisroel and choloc stam, is TRIEF.
Funny that the parents and grandparents of today’s holy chasidim imbibed TREIF milk before cholov yisroel became easily available in first New York City and then the rest of large American cities (late 60’s and early 70’s).
During those years, all yeshivos- both chasidish and litvish- served cholov stam. Thank Noach Dear for bringing prices down in New York City and Rabbi Yoseph Tendler for pushing cholov yisroel in Baltimore.
When traveling, G’dolim in America were known to be machmir and have coffee served to them at rest stops in paper cups but did not forbid coffee served in china cups to others.
Those were the years my friend.
He’s a daas yochid on cholov Yisroel being treif, because they separate the DA cows, but not a daas yochid on the milk products coming from DA cows.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1115&st=&pgnum=291&hilite=
(another mareh makom on whether lifnei iver applies when the machshil holds something is assur but the nichshol holds it’s muttar)
Lior: Chicken and cheese is drabbanan – but no kashrus agencies c’v gives hashgacha 🙂 When there is an issur that has two sides, the issur is still forbidden for the machmir – but it loses it’s status to some degree.
Driving a car on Shabbos makes you not Shomer Shabbos.
Opening a bottle of soda does not – even to one who holds its forbidden (insert any of the 1000’s of machlokes haposkim in Hilchos Shabbos which of course is more strict and important to Yiddishkeit than Cholov Yisrael.)
I am on the Cholov Yisrael side. But creating issurim (the giving of cholov stam to a person who is not particular especially in America) needs reasoning.
“I personally do not eat cholov stam -“
Neither do those who rely on the psak of Rav Moshe z’l. they drink/eat what he called “chalav shel hacompanies”. He paskened that the government oversight and controls satisfied the requirement of chazal as it relates to chalav yisroel. I never asked, bu tI suspect Rav Moshe would never permit anyone to show up at a non jewish owned farm that is not under government regulation and oversight (IE, it is not a commercial establishment) and drink the milk offered by the farmer.
At any rate, as it relates to the question of lifnei iver, has anyone asked a Rav?
apushateyid- that milk would be cholov akum, not chalav stam. There’s a big difference between the two.
The only Dunkin Donuts with a reliable Hashgacha is the ones mentioned above in Queens which is under the Vaad Harabonim of Queens & the one in the Five Towns which is under the Vaad of the Five Townes. the ones in Brooklyn are under Rabbi Mehlman. You can call Rabbi Weiner of the Kashrus Information Center(K.I.C.) to find out if Rabbi Mehlman is a reliable hechsher. I have spoken to reliable sources in the Kashrus business & would be very shocked if his Hashgacha is K.I.C. approved. All the reliable Hashgachas in Brooklyn are K.I.C. approved.
Concerning the Eli51 post above: Whether someone relies on a specific (Orthodox) hashgacha or not is a personal issue and is not a reason to disparage the Rav or hashgacha; especially in public. What is reliable to one person is not necessarily reliable to another.
Many people feel that the large national hashgachos are the best and will not touch the heimeshe ones and others have an opposite view. If it was me who posted above, I would seek mechila from Rabbi Mehlman.
Not that anyone is going to care what I think but I know for a fact that Rabbi Mehlman is good. He is not a triangle K or Rabbi Steinberg. I am fairly certain he is a Lakewood guy
To Zahavasdad I once purchased a Donut from Dunkin Donuts who was under R Magellan & called my Rav who is in charge of a big Hashgacha & he told me not to eat the donut & than I asked an assistant Administrator of another major hashgacha & told me there are problems. Any hashgacha that is not K.I.C. approved is probably not reliable that’s why I said that you should call Rabbi Wiener to ask if the hashgacha is reliable.
I also must say when I found out about the problems with Rabbi England hashgacha was five six years ago so its possible he could have changed. In general if not sure about an Hashgacha people should investigate to find out if its reliable or not. Rabbi Weiner of the K.I.C. is a good person to find out how reliable Hashgacha are.
Did Rabbi Magellan circumnavigate the donut? (Oh, the wonders of auto-correction!)
Aren’t DD’s donuts made in central locations and shipped to the stores? I believe the mixes are under a national hashgacha. Who supervises the commissary? Is the commissary the same for Queens, Five Towns, and Brooklyn? What I’m getting at is this: if you don’t trust the rav hamachshir of the local store but you do trust the hashgacha of the commissary, is there anything wrong with the donut as it’s entering the store? Of course, once they open the box, anything goes.
Nit for Daniel Q: The DD on the corner of Burnside and Rockaway is in Lawrence, not Cedarhurst. (There’s another location with the same ownership and hashgacha on Sunrise Highway in Valley Stream.)
To Yehudayona all I know is about five six years ago I bought a donut from Dunkin Donuts & my Rav who heads a major Kashrus organization told me not to eat it. Now its possible Rabbi M ehlmans Hashgacha could have improved since than but I don’t know. The best thing to do is call Rabbi Weiner to find out. How can it go by a central location when the donuts are warmed up @ each location?
Every legitimate hashgacho that I know of has had unintentional mishaps except for the Triangle K under Rabbi Ralbag; Rabbonim have tried to trip them up but have not been able to.
Can you eat a egg sandwich in DD?
is it considered “bishul nochri”?
Some DD have signs like dont buy egg sandwiches on Saturday Night.
In my local dunkin donuts Ive watched them make an egg sandwich and they dont make the eggs fresh, they make them in batches and put them in some sort of draw. I am guessing here, but they main fryer that makes the eggs is lit by the Masgaich and that is why they are ok
Presumably, if it’s under hashgochah, there’s some sort of policy in place to take care of the bishul akum problem. It comes down to how much you hold of the hashgochah’s standards (there are various opinions as to what a Yisroel has to do to take it out of the category of bishul akum) and how reliably they implement their standards.
How do you avoid the bishul akum issue on food prepared in the shop on Shabbos?
There is a sign saying dont buy egg sandwiches for 2 hours after shabbos
I don’t know why the keilim aren’t a problem.
To all those with kashrus questions, I strongly suggest that you call the Vaad of the Five Towns and Far Rockaway and ask them directly instead of speculating
Or call Rabbi Weiner from the Kosher Information Center (K.I.C.)
YehudahYonah,
You are correct the DD is in Lawrence not Cedarhurst. I thought of that in between posts – but never corrected myself. It is though in the “Cedarhurst” area -as things off or on Central Avenue are sometimes grouped in even though some places are in Woodmere or Lawrence technically.
There is also one right by the Hewlett station – immediately adjacent to the Chabad of Hewlett – that is not under the Vaad and does have CY milk available (see above if that helps). And as you said, one in Valley Stream – that I believe does not have any CY milk available – under the Vaad of the 5 towns.
Eli51: You’re incorrect about the “only” DD with a reliable hechsher. In Teaneck there is a DD under the RCBC, and in Elizabeth there is one under R’ Teitz shlita. Both the RCBC and R’ Teitz are reliable.
As for Joseph’s post about shas hadchak, he’s incorrect. That letter was not printed in the Igros Moshe on purpose (while R’ Moshe zt”l was choosing which tshuvos were published) because it didn’t apply to the general public. It was a letter written to a yeshiva which had been serving only chalav Yisrael, and due to financial hardship, asked about switching to chalav stam. His reply of only b’shas hadchak does not apply to most people.
Rav Forst lives in Far Rockaway where the only Hasgacha is the 5 towns Vaad which gives the Hecher on at least 2 Dunkin Donuts.
How is that relevant? If that is supposed to imply that Rav Forst is perfectly fine with cholov stam, that’s untrue.
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