Kosher Dunkin Donuts in Brooklyn?

There’s one on Flatbush Ave and K I think. Or if not K then somewhere right near there.

There are a few around Flatbush: Flatbush Ave corner AVE L. Nostrand corner Ave I, Ave J between E13 and E14. Plus a few more that are a little further out

If a person doesn’t eat cholov stam because his shitta (per his mora d’asra/posek) is that cholov stam is not kosher, is he allowed to help or facilitate another Jew (who holds cholov stam is kosher) to obtain or eat cholov stam?

It seems to me akin to someone who doesn’t hold from the eruv to suggest or facilitate for another Jew (who does hold from the eruv) to carry on Shabbos.

Lior, if the person asking holds that chalav stamm IS kosher ( and there are many poskim to rely on ) you can tell him.

I believe the question was if there WAS a kosher DD. Enough with the lectures.

“so dunkin donuts franchises now tell us whats kosher.”

There is nothing wrong with them advertising they have kosher supervision. You have picked the right forum for maximum lashon hara and rechilus with your rav hamachshir bashing.

“with no full time supervision and no yehudi at all working on the premises,”

Is there a din of donuts shenisalem min ha’ayin that we are not aware of?

As for the reports of outsiders coming in and heating things in the DD microwaves, even if the food was 1000% kosher beyond any shadow of a doubt, that is a gross violation of DD policy and should be reported to DD. If they are so sure of their information they should a)report it to the Rav hamachsir and b)report it to DD.

Kashrus supervision aside, I do not eat from DD for a number of reasons including Cholov Yisrael, Pas Palter and Pas Cholov. But that is my hangup. Others can feel free eating there because:

1. Cholov Yisrael – Rav Moshe, the posek hador permits Cholov Stam. Further, the Har Tzvi says that one can use regular powder milk (the primary dairy ingredient in the donuts)and it is even less of a kulah than the Rama’s kula for cheese and butter.

2. Pas Palter – Most poskim agree that pas palter is only me-akev during aseres yemai teshuva. Some are more machmir on shabbos but during the week yesh al mi lismoch.

3. Pas Cholov – If you stay away from the croissants and bagels most poskim are not makpid for pas cholov when eating mezonos. (My posek is.)

And while I don’t eat in these places the mashgichim can and do inspect the stores seven days a week including Pesach. If you think that a store owned by a shomer shabbos is not susceptible to employee (or chas veshalom propreitor shaningans)you are fooling yourself.

lc: Lior, if the person asking holds that chalav stamm IS kosher ( and there are many poskim to rely on ) you can tell him.

PP: Others can feel free eating there because:… Rav Moshe…

No. One can’t eat something because there are poskim to rely on when his own posek holds it is treif. And if his own posek holds cholov stam is not kosher (as various big poskim maintain), he can’t suggest, facilitate, direct or feed another Jew cholov stam (even one who holds of the very valid shitta that it is not non-kosher).

Much as someone who holds an eruv is not valid, cannot suggest, direct, ask or facilitate another Jew to carry on Shabbos – even if that other Jew and his posek holds the eruv IS valid.

apy: that is a gross violation of DD policy and should be reported to DD.

It is highly doubtful, and certainly not a given, that DD will do much even if it were reported to them. A single incidence of warming up a personal sandwich in the microwave doesn’t rank on top of the things that the franchise company headquarters in Massachusetts will worry itself with or throw out the microwave because. And certainly not without strong evidence, such as a video.

apy: whose employees are usually non jews.

PP: If you think that a store owned by a shomer shabbos is not susceptible to employee (or chas veshalom propreitor shaningans)you are fooling yourself.

A Jewish owned food establishment is far more likely to care and be responsive to kashrus violations by its non-Jewish employees (who are less likely in the first place to be preparing the food) than a non-Jewish owned food establishment, let alone one open on Shabbos.

zd: Dunkin Donuts like that, the ones that are Kosher have normal Hashshchas (Like the O-k)

DD, at least in NYC, does not have a national hashgacha.

“And if his own posek holds cholov stam is not kosher (as various big poskim maintain), he can’t suggest, facilitate, direct or feed another Jew cholov stam (even one who holds of the very valid shitta that it is not non-kosher).”

Is this your psak or is this the psak of the shulchan aruch, or other recognized posek?

“It is highly doubtful, and certainly not a given, that DD will do much even if it were reported to them.”

You really like to make assumptions that suit your needs, dont you. Have you ever dealt with DD?

“let alone one open on Shabbos.”

Exactly what issur is involved with a non jewish store being open on shabbos? How does it affect the kashrus of the store if you rely on the Rav Hamachshir that he is doing his job properly?

I have never heard a Rov who says someone who eats Chalav Stam is eating TREIF. You rav might have said you cant eat it, but he would never say someone else who eats it is eating treif. He would likely say its ok for him , but not for you.

If that were the case then the O-U , O-K etc would not be considered kosher since they do allow it.

FYI if you have ever been to a dairy farm you would see there is no such thing as Chalav Akum, Chalav Yisroel etc. NOBODY milks cow anymore. Its all done by machines and automation. Some metal pipes are placed under the cows Utters and these pipes are only made to fit a cows utters, no other animals. The Milk is then pumped out and send to this giant vat or bottle and there is no way to add anything to the vat. The Milk is then pumped on a truck to the factory.

Lior

As to your first question why not? Am I missing something? Assuming his posek is working within the framework of Orthodox Judaism, yet holds of the Eruv. Why cant that person carry?

Can I tell a Sefardi where to buy Kitniyos he plans to eat on Pesach?

As to your second question:

Have you ever tried asking a DD franchise if you can use their microwave? I tried this morning and was flat out refused.

Have you tried reporting to DD headqaurters?

BTW your concern regarding DD isnt limited to DD. MAybe the lays potatochip guy fried his bacon along with the potato chips yesterday. There is no mashgiach temidi at Lays and they are open on Shabbos.

DY what would the problem be?

Putting aside the technical details of lifnei iver which probably wopuldnt apply since chalav stam is readily available as are things to carry. Even if it were, or if you want to call it mesayeia. What aveira is there?

Assuming that person is allowed to eat chalav stam/carry on Shabbos. (Obviously if you hold even he cant carry/eat chalav stam that is a sepperate discussion) IT is nto an aveira for that person so what lifnei iver/mesayeha could there be?

After finding out that the eruv was broken, I hope they came back after Shabbos to bring home the baby in the stroller.

After finding out that the eruv was broken, I hope they came back after Shabbos to bring home the baby in the stroller.

Maybe you misunderstood, there were 2 Eruv. The greater Monsey Eruv and the Viznitz Street eruv (Or something around their small area where they lived) It was the smaller Viznitz eruv that was down, not the greater Monsey Eruv.

The people I was with were not chassidish

DY

I see, I never viewed it that way. I always assumed it isnt just that I am legitamete in OTHER aspects of KAshrus/neemanus etc.

To me it seems, as a Talmud of say R’ Belsky I can eat chalav stam even according to You who may hold it is chazer treif.

Of course if you hold nobody can eat it even if you rely on R’ Belsky, then obviously mesayeah would apply.

Is that your (Lior’s) view that nobdoy can eat it?

what about the reverse, according to what you are saying according to those who hold Chalav stam is ok it would seem to be ok for everybody. Can I let you eat Chalav stam, knowig you woudlnt eat it knowingly, becasue my Rav says it is?

Or in a more analagous case. If Lior in a moment of weakness r”chl says He’s chalishing for some hagen daaz where can he get some, according to you there should be no problem in my directing him, since I hold It is ok which, if you are being consistent should extend to everybody.

(To me it seems this would be mesayeha since I know he holds it is assur so it is assur for him, though not for me.)

I don’t see a difference in principle between the two cases, although there are practical differences: more people (at least in the yeshiva crowd) hold the eruv to be passul than hold CS to actually be assur, and not holding of the eruv in some cases has ramifications d’oraisa.

Ubiqitin, a talmid of R’ Belsky, who holds the Brooklyn eruv is absolutely passul, could not be mesayaia someone to use it, but could be mesayaia someone to eat CS. Although he holds it’s a chumra worth keeping, he holds meikar hadin it’s muttar. There would probably be a chumra in lifnei iver not to give him CS, though.

OTOH, it would be lifnei iver to give CS to someone who is makpid, even if you hold it’s muttar. If he holds it’s assur, it’s shavei anafshei even if it’s muttar. Even if it’s just a chumra for him, it would still fall under the category of a bad eitzah, also lifnei iver.

Can you point to the siman which says it’s muttar?

Guys, I appreciate your enthusiasm in debating your topic, but I feel it is sufficiently different from my original topic.

Mod-permitting, I’d like to ask that you continue your discussion in a different thread.

Perhaps Lior has some information but doesn’t know whether it’s permissible to share it or not. Anyways this thread is a lot more interesting than it would have been if the original question had simply been answered.

The question isn’t whether a Talmidei of one of the mattirim can carry, the point we’re discussing is whether a talmidei of one of the osrim can lend a book (good example) to a talmid of a mattir.

If I were trying to make up a new issur, your car analogy would work. I’m not, though; I’m saying what I think is a reasonable sevara that since I hold something is assur, I also hold aiding you to do it is lifnei iver, an issur which certainly exists.

Let’s put our question another way: would a Beis Hillel talmid suggest a tzaras habas as a shidduch for a Bais Shammai talmid?

I think either way is reasonable, so I’d like to see mareh m’komos, not just, “you’re wrong because the Shulchan Aruch doesn’t talk about your case”.

I apologize and ask for mechilla from anyone i offended however in my decade in brooklyn i have never seen a DD the OK or the Vaad of Flatbush which are both EXCELLENT hechshers providing top notch supervision. Chas v shalom i didnt mean to indicate either of these (i wasnt aware they had any DD locations under them, please let me know where they are lovated as I would love to know) FYI a major well respected rabinical authority on kashrus mentioned the DD microwave issue on the radio so it was well known. bottom line everyone make their own choices hopefully involved consulting with your local orthodox rav and do what is right for you within that context. As far as the many shomer shabbat bagel places in brooklyn i am familiar with many and i always see shomrei shabbos and/or owners there at all times. But as far as trusting any restaurant even under the best hashgacha, you are correct, its not so pashut.

After reading all the comments I think I can summarize the discussion this way. Those who don’t eat Chalav Stam are jealous of those that do ( and don’t have to worry that their milk will be spoiled after one day)and feel if they can’t enjoy life as much as those that eat cholov stam the least they can do is try and make them feel guilty. On the other hand those that eat cholov stam feel that they need permission from those that don’t eat so as not to feel as guilty as they do. I myself enjoy cholov Stam and enjoy the drinks at DD ( the food is to fattening) and don’t need any permission from anyone besides My Rov.

p.s the microwave story is an old story and FYI the mashgiach removed the supervision and the Franchise did get in some trouble with the main headquarters.

Glad you didn’t close the thread, Mods, while picturesq was left wondering what to do with that poor baby left out in the stroller. Picturesq, it’s not enough to wait until after Shabbos. Leave the baby there until the Eruv is fixed. Make sure you always have him covered with a good warm blanket before you start your trek.

DY, you say “how can you assist someone do something assur yet not be oiver on lifnei iver?”

Not quite when Talmid B”H helps talmid B”Sh with tzaras bito he is helping him to something muttar! The way I see it even the acording to Talmid B”H, the talmid B”Sh is in fact allowed to marry tzaros bitto. If it was assur it WOULD be lifnei issur.

(As far as the paradox of not being lifnei iver for the machshi to help do somehing assur for the machshei to do himself, there are many such examples, nazir helping regular person drink wine, kohein helping yisroel be metameh. In ALL these cases there is no issur helping the nichshol do something muttar.)

I agree with your summary but with the caveat that I’m only talking about cases where the machshi holds the nichsol is allowed to do “it” (C”S/ carry with Eruv/ marry tzaros bitto) on his own, thus making it mutar for the nichshol, even in the machshi’s opinion.