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“Waste in general is not holy”
Really irrelevant to this debate. It exists, whether it is holy or not.
“One may never see the waste in the ocean, but it can become him. That sounds crazy but it isn’t. Pollutants get absorbed in the muscle fibers of fish.”
I am not a fish, and it is unlikely that a significant amount of that pollution will end up in any fish that I, or anyone else, eat.
“We are not living in a perfect world, nor are we meant to. Nevertheless, that does not exempt us from being socially and environmentally proactive. Does it?”
Well if we were never obligated in the first place, then we are exempt, ipso facto.
Again, most, if not all, of the sources you brought discuss the prohibition of bal tashchis. You haven’t brought any sources extending that prohibition to a prohibition against damaging the environment as a whole.
I would also like to point out that bombarding me with the footnotes from articles that you read is not an effective way of winning this debate. All you need is one solid source supporting your stance.
The bottom line is that we don’t do it just because. And when we go deeper in its significance, it speaks to the sensitivity of the Torah to living beings.
Stop reading your own ideas into the Torah with no basis other than your desire to.
“The bottom line is that we don’t do it just because.”
Actually we do. We do it just because the Torah says so.
Actually we do. We do it just because the Torah says so.
+1
LB, here is my take on these issues: we have mitzvot against wasting our resources, not being cruel to animals. We also have concepts that we should appreciate the greatness of Creation, as well as the things that he provides for us. Yet, we also know that there is a Creator who is constantly recreating His world and taking care of it. So while we should not destroy the world on purpose, it is not our job to make sure that the world does not self-destruct. that was the mistake/sin of the generation of Haflaga (dispersal). they were afraid that every so often, some catastrophic event comes along to destroy the world. So they gathered together to build this fortress to protect the world. Chazal tell us that they were rebelling/fighting against G-d when they did this. They took G-d out of the picture totally, recognizing only their own powers. I think this is why frum people don’t make a big deal about environmental causes. G-d can take care of his Creations.
I guess that I should stop learning about Torah from rabbis then.
Pick better ones.
“See Midrash, Kohelet 7:13 …”
I appreciate that you finally brought a source that seems to support your position.
Though I believe the commentaries on that Midrash say that Hashem was referring to a spiritual destruction through sinning, rather than a physical destruction of the world.
lightbrite,
All the logic in the world is not going to help with your argument if it is not backed by Torah sources.
And that is why you really need to pick new rabbis.
Just the corruption of Yiddishkeit which is promulgated in the name of Chabad, not legitimate Chabad.
LB, how did the Chabad Rabbi explain how environmentalism is connected to the 7 mitzvos bnei noach? The prohibition of ever min hachai (eating an animal alive)? – that isn’t exactly promoting environmentalism. Perhaps he was trying to make his words relevant to a secular audience by focusing on things that he knew was important to them?
One more thing about environmentalism, animal rights activism, etc. When viewpoints and morality are not based on Torah Hashkafa, they are easily warped. So you see that animal rights extremists are so worried about an animal being abused that they will commit violence against people. Or how about EPA rules that destroy people’s livelihoods and homes in order to protect some bird’s habitat. Things need to come from a Torah perspective, and what we do (e.g. dispose of our waste in a proper manner so as not to make our living space impure) or don’t do (e.g. chop down fruit trees) is based on halacha, not on what makes us feel good.
WTP
There is something called the food chain. And its fits the torah . Everything created by hashem has a purpose
Lets take Mosquitoes whom we all hate. What is the purpose of a mosquito. Mosquitos are eaten by other animals , who are eaten by other animals and at some point those animals are eaten by people. If the mosquitoes would died the animals higher up on the food chain would die
Birds eat alot of mosquitoes and they keep the mosquito population in check, if the birds are removed there will be more mosquitoes.
Hashem created the right checks and balances in the animal food kingdom. If we mess it up, we can create havoc.
? ???????????? ?????????? ??????? ??? ????-?????? ??????? ????? ????-???? ??????????? ?????? ?????? ????????? ????????? ???????-?????? ?????? ?????????? ????????. ? ????-?????? ?????? ????-??? ????? ??????? ????????? ???????? ?????? ???????? ????? ???-????.
The Ramchal in Mesillas Yesharim, Perek Alef, says that the Midrash in Koheles is referring to the destruction of the world through physical pleasures.
http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=52042&st=&pgnum=29
(It would help to read a few pages before and after as well. Also see the commentary on the bottom)
Sorry about all my ranting.
Sorry, I just realized what I wrote may have been unclear.
I meant to say:
The Ramchal in Mesillas Yesharim, Perek Alef, says that the Midrash in Koheles is referring to the spiritual destruction of the world through physical pleasures.
Zahavasdad- I am not disagreeing with what you say and I think we do have an obligation to take care of our world. the question is to what extent and from what perspective. Hashem still runs this world, not us, and He gave us permission to rule over it and use it for our benefit. We might mess up, but Hashem sustains this world and can figure out how to keep it going even without our help.
A side point that I never understood- why is it that when a beaver family moves into a new river and builds a dam, thereby flooding the area and creating a new habitat, it is considered an amazing thing, even though the previous habitat was destroyed in the process, but when humans come in and clear land to build a new habitat (a new city) environmentalists consider it destructive?
“why is it that when a beaver family moves into a new river and builds a dam, thereby flooding the area and creating a new habitat, it is considered an amazing thing, even though the previous habitat was destroyed in the process, but when humans come in and clear land to build a new habitat (a new city) environmentalists consider it destructive?”
Why should humans have more rights than animals?
LB – “On the other hand, when we have storehouses of grain in warehouses, it’s not the same. There are actual people who can eat and use that food but it sits there until whatever grain industry it is gets the top price, despite who is going hungry.”
Are you suggesting that people go hungry because farmers store grain?
They should just give away grain to poor people instead of storing it?
I am not an economist, but I assume that there are grain reserves so that prices don’t plummet when the supply goes up. If prices dropped too much, farmers would fail and we would all lose out since our food supply would be threatened. I think that the failed communist experiment has proven that without a profit motivator, people do not produce.
And by the way, when Yosef stored the grain for Pharaoh, he did not give it away to the hungry during the years of famine. They had to pay for it, and when they ran out of money, they traded their cattle and land, and then finally when nothing was left, they sold their own selves to Pharaoh, who then had to feed them since they were his property.
LB you are 100% right about the beauty of the world and how we have to appreciate it. The Ramabam you quoted is one that I have always thought a lot about and it holds very true for me. But when Hashem made the world, He made it for Mankind, particularly for Yisroel who would keep the Torah. We are not merely the top of the food chain. Adam is told “be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and rule over it”. As rulers, we have a responsibility to the earth but we can use the earth’s resources for our own benefit.
Hashem gave the beaver sharp teeth so that he could chop down trees to build his home. Hashem gave humans a brain and the creative ability to make tools and materials so he can build his home. When the beaver builds his dam, he is not thinking about biodiversity, but how he needs a nice home for his beaver family. When we build our cities, we are thinking about how they will benefit humankind. Unlike the beaver, we can think about the consequences of our actions, and can come up with solutions to remedy them. But we cannot lose site of the fact that Hashem did not create the world and then abandon it to its own devices. Without His constant hashgacha the world would not be. So it is presumptuous of us puny humans to think that our physical actions are what is preserving this world.
Other than Torah learning, of course, as we are told that the whole creation was in suspension until “yom Hashishi”, the sixth day of Sivan when the Torah was given. And as the mishne in Avos says, the world stands on 3 things: torah, avoda (service, tefilla) and gemilus chasadim (righteous deeds).
So as a growing Jew who cares about the world he/she lives in, the best way to preserve it is thru learning Torah and doing G-d’s will.
Glad we agree, LB, it’s been fun philosophizing with you.
I didn’t know that the ketubah has the location of the wedding on it.
Yes, it does. Next time you’re by a wedding, listen to the reading of the ketubah. You’ll hear the place name in the first minute of the reading.
The Wolf
LB
Actually City names DO change
Some examples
Lemberg is now called Lviv
Vlina is now called Villinus
Pressberg is now called Bratislava
What happens if the location changes over time? I guess nothing right?
Why would anything happen? City names (and, more frequently country boundaries) change. A kesubah, like any sh’tar, has to have the correct place at the time that it is written and/or goes into effect. It does not have to be correct after that.
Can you imagine what would happen if that were not the case and all the gitten written in a city suddenly became passul because the name and/or country changed?
The Wolf
Byzantium became Constantinople became Istanbul.
St. Petersburg (Russia) became Petrograd became Leningrad became St. Petersburg again.
Tsaritsyn became Stalingrad became Volgograd.
Hanyang became Hanseong became Geyongseong became Seoul.
And, of course, let’s not forget that New Amsterdam became New York.
The Wolf
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