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“So I found the full PDF of this online “How to Get Deeper Into Torah Without Going Off the Deep End,” by Friedman the Tutor.”
Yes. It’s really good! Definitely something you should read.
“By the same token, its probably forbidden to go to almost any hotel, especially a resort hotel.
You might pass the pool area or see someone coming from pool”
Okay, so if hotels are the same as cruise ships, then they are assur too. That doesn’t mean that cruise ships are mutter.
Tachlis, for those of you who have been to both and would know – are hotels as bad as cruise ships?
“I would have thought that a kosher cruise meant the whole ship. It sounds like that’s not the case. Is that correct?”
These ships are generally huge, they hold thousands of people. There’s no way a kosher cruise could fill one up.
How do mashgichim give hashgachos for these cruises if they are treif?
I think they have their own kitchen and dining room.
The ship I was on had an auxillary kitchen that was kashered and supervised during the trip by machgichim. The ship was obviously not partitioned, although we had a separate dining area.
How do so many frum people go to Miami Beach in the winter? Even if you don’t walk on the boardwalk, the streets are filled with women in skimpy outfits ( or so I’m told )
“I think they have their own kitchen and dining room.’
I didn’t mean the food – I meant the cruises are treif in other ways besides the food (according to what people are writing here). When mashgichim give hashgachos, is it only about the food? Do they look at other things as well and refuse to give hashgacha if there are other problems? Also, if there really are pritzus problems, how is it okay for the mashgichim to be on board?
It is the same as when a pesach program is granted limited rooms for a hotel or resort. They are not there to pasken for anything but the food and for Shabbos issues. As someone else stated above, going on a cruise is a choice. If you feel it is not appropriate don’t go.
All cruises offer kosher options (The Airline meals) , they do it to get more customers as long as you tell them in advance and they dont charge you any extra
Doing any aveira is a “choice”.
Joseph: Since I have never wanted to take a cruise, I never asked any questions about it. I can’t say whether there is more of an issue with a cruise, visiting Miami Beach (or Aruba, Puerto Rico, etc), or walking the streets of Manhattan mid-summer. While a person has the bechira to choose to do an aveira, I cannot state outright that going on a cruise is an outright aveira.
But I do have a question for you: You have to fly somewhere for a business meeting. You board the plane and find yourself sitting next to women who are not dressed appropriately. Are you mechuyev to change your seat? Do you get off the plane?
Many years ago, someone told me that I should not learn or say tehillim while on the subway due to women who are not dressed appropriately. I asked a poseik what I should do and he said: “If the choice is looking into a sefer or looking at the women, choose looking into the sefer.
lb: Are there people publicly roaming in their swimwear at the hotels?
Yes. On their way to the pool.
iac: If going for parnassa there might be a heter that doesn’t exist when going for pleasure. And even then it depends on the extent of the situation. Is she dressed in swimwear or how a typical goyta dresses in the street?
In either event, even if there’s a heter if it is possible to switch seats that is surely necessary.
Regarding cruises, multiple participants have confirmed that even on the so-called “kosher” cruises one must bear witness to those roaming around in swimwear or close to that.
“Yes. On their way to the pool.”
Then clearly it is assur to be there.
Going on a cruise is like going to the Las Vegas Strip even the Kosher Cruises. Therefore if you have to go on the cruise for Business there might be an heter if you stay in the kosher Area & your cabin the whole time unless you have to go the other area for business. However I don’t know anyone that went on a Cruise for Business. If people want to go on a cruise how about having a gevir rent out the whole boat & make a real kosher cruise?
“If people want to go on a cruise how about having a gevir rent out the whole boat & make a real kosher cruise?”
Now we’re talking. Anyone in the Coffee Room a gevir?
Iacisrmma – Rav Moshe Feinstein has a teshuva about this. I am not sure if I ever saw it inside or only heard it quoted, and in any case it was a long time ago, so anyone who wants to know exactly what he said should look it up themselves (or ask DY to find it for you – he’s good at that).
But, I am pretty sure that he says that if you need to ride the bus for parnassah, and there is no other way to get to work, and riding the bus involves sitting next to someone untzniusly dressed, then you are allowed to.
I believe this is a clear-cut halacha based on Chazal. If someone has to pass by people who are untzniusly dressed, he is allowed to, but if he could have found another way to go, he is called a rasha.
As far as I know this halacha applies to all of the above situations mentioned – cruises, hotels, walking down the streets of Manhattan, and even entering a bank where the tellers don’t dress tzniusly if one has the option of using the ATM or going to another bank where the tellers wear uniforms.
Every person has to figure out for himself if he really has another option or not. Sometimes he doesn’t and sometimes he does.
Sometimes, there really is another way to go, and the person does not realize it, but if he thought harder about it, he would realize this. I have a story about that, but I don’t have time now. Will try to post later, b”n.
Eli51…..
28YO daughter works in the private luxury Yachting industry. For only $475,000 per week you can charter her Yacht. It sleeps 10 guests. They only charge $10,000 extra per day for kosher food and wine/liquor
The crusie ships are really big, You can sometimes see them in bayonne, NJ or Brooklyn. They hold thousands of people the kosher market isnt big enough for a totally kosher cruise.
There is something called a riverboat crusie many times down the Danube, that are much smaller
Zahavasdad………….
Not all Cruise lines offer airline style kosher food, many do so but not from all ports. Imagine the horror of showing up for your first meal after the ship has left port and finding out the kosher food didn’t make it…it’s not like a flight that lets you off in less than 24 hours.
There are two River cruise companies in the USA, but they do not offer kosher food options, as they cook and serve family style. We happen to be friends with the owners of both lines, one is based in CT and the other in RI.
LB -while it may be okay to pass a place where there are untzniusly dressed women in order to get to work, this sounds like a different type of situation to me.
1. They are not just passing a place where there is pritzus; they are working in a place of pritzus.
2. More importantly, they aren’t just working there; they are creating the place and encouraging others to be there. They are the ones who are making the “kosher cruise” for other Jews.
I and “dan l’kaf zchus” that they must have asked a sheilah. I am just wondering how this works and why it’s okay. Even if it weren’t assur to be judgmental, I certainly don’t know enough to have an opinion on it. I just am curious as to how it works.
I was surprised that there is a hashgacha because it sounds like they are encouraging others to sin. But maybe the reason for it is that they assume that most of these people would be going on the cruise anyhow, so it’s better that it be kosher and have kosher entertainment, and that it is why it is muttar for the musicians and masgichim to be there. In terms of themselves, it is parnassah as you said, and in terms of inciting others, they are actually preventing them from doing worse things.
Also, I think that CT Lawyer said that cruises used to be different, so it’s possible that these things started when they weren’t a problem, and it just takes the oilam a while to realize that things have changed.
CTL, I couldn’t believe that there’s no riverboat cruise company based on the Mississippi, so I googled it. There’s the American Queen Steamboat Company in Memphis. Either this is a subsidiary of one of your friends’ New England based companies, or there are more than two river cruise companies in America.
Ive been to the National Parks and Ive seen other frum people around, they are scattered so minyanim are not really possible. Plenty of frum people go there.
Yellowstone National park is especiually large and difficult to arrange minyanim as people stay all over
Even if you go to a place with a Chabad house and maybe a young Israel. Many of them do not have weekday minyanim as they cant get a Minyan. They can only get Minyanim on Shabbos and if they are able to get Shachris Mincha/Maarriv is still tougher
ZD, that’s what companies like Touring Friends are for. They have great trips to Mount Rushmore, US national parks, New Mexico, California among other places
They’re based in Far Rockaway. A caterer accompanies the tour bus and they have a specially written sefer Torah that is small enough to fit into an overhead compartment on a plane
The problem with Kosher tours like that is that they are too expensive for me.
I can only go to cool and interesting places if I go by myself and use hotel and airline points.
I went to Italy for free (only had to pay for food and other incidentials like museum admissions and souveniers)
Yehudayona…………
The American Queen Co is the latest reincarnation of the old Delta Queen Co. It has closed down and gone bankrupt repeated times under different ownership. Their biggest problem is that their main boat doesn’t meet current Safety requirements and gets temporary certificates to operate.
Since they have cancelled their seasons so often in the past 10 years I didn’t bother to mention them.
The New England owned lines (who operate throughout the US, Canada and Carribean) American Cruise Lines and Blount Small Ship Adventures. Neither can accommodate kosher guests and special meal prep.
Lightbrite
“The issue is that when this ship is at sea, it discharges all their waste into the ocean without restrictions. It’s far enough away from land to disregard any legislative concern for the environment, and so it does.”
When it returns to port and has no waste to be offloaded for legal disposal the captain may find himself under arrest, the shipowner fined and the ship possibly seized.
There are international treaties, laws and agreements for dealing with waste disposal at sea. When a ship docks, the sewage holding tanks are emptied via sewer connections or into tanker trucks. Solid waste is carted away by commercial haulers and disposed of in a legally permitted manner.
“Is it permissible for the talmudim to be on board on such a vessel without the need and for only amusement or the joy of learning in a new setting, when it comes at the expense of such needless pollution?”
So you’re basically asking if we have a halachic obligation to avoid polluting the environment?
A Jew is not allowed to do something for no purpose, so they would only be allowed to board the ship in the first place if there were a purpose – such as attaining the menuchas hanefesh (peace of mind) and simchas hachaim (joy in life) needed to be ovdei Hashem and to be able to learn b’hasmada (with diligence).
If their boarding as a purpose for their avodas Hashem, that would override any pollution concerns (assuming they are doing nothing that is illegal or unusual).
According to Rav Avigdor Miller, Global warming is a liberal Farce and not to be belived
“It’s our responsibility to also be mindful and conscientious about protecting the environment as best we can in this world.”
Source?
There’s a big difference between throwing food in the garbage (which is what most of your sources are referring to), and dumping waste in the middle of the ocean.
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