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MM,
True, all who desire to learn in Kollel SHOULD
But the community should also support only those that it COULD.
Therefore, if you can afford it, learn 24/7 ad meah ve’esrim. If you want the public to suport you, while having to pay tuitions for their own many children, you better prove to it that your learning will amount to something.
Josh31, the amount of benefits taken by the working community illegally is a scandal. People taking benefits they are entitled to is NOT. Every penny they get from the government is another penny they don’t get from other sources. It’s a zeh neheneh zeh lo chaser.
Furthermore, the Igros Moshe (YD 2, 116 and YD 4:36 scattered throughout tha anafim- in middle of 11 right now) says that today, it’s perfectly permissible for a guy in learning to take tzedakah, either because the Rambam quoted above no longer applies due to Eis Laasos (Kesef Mishna, Maharshal, others), or because the Rambam was only talking in a case where someone’s depth of learning would be just as great even if they worked. The Eis laasos sevara is that today, it’s nearly impossible to work and still be osek beTorah to the level that is required, and it’s better for them to take tzedakah money than to work and have Torah forgotten in klal yisroel. This is especially true today, when most jobs are 9-5 or more, and with blackberries making people accessible 24/6. It’s impossible to work and focus on learning and become a Talmid chacham. He does say (YD 4, 34 or 35)that someone whose stay in yeshiva will be a detriment to himself or others (his heart is set on working etc) should work.
B’H I don’t see Kollel’s going out of business. B’H there are a lot of people in Klal Yisroel willingly supporting Kollel yungerleit in a modern day Yissachar-Zevulun relationship. Both the Kollel yungerleit and the baalei batim who enthusiastically pay to share in the schaar of the great mitzvah of Talmud Torah benefit. It’s a great deal for both parties. The public isn’t supporting the Kollel yungerleit anymore than the Kollel yungerleit are supporting the public with their Torah. It’s a business proposition between the two parties. No one is putting a gun to anyone’s head, the baalei batim are more than willing to be partners with the Kollel.
So why all the antagonism towards Kollel?? If you don’t want to participate in this mitzvah, I guess you don’t have to. There are many others more than willing to pick up your slack. I’ve seen the same recycled arguments against Kollel for the past 30 years, yet Kollel is going as strong as ever — in fact stronger than 30 years ago. Obviously it is working out quite well for everyone involved. Everytime there is a bad economy you have people yelling this is it. It happens each time, and the cynics are proven wrong every time. And when the economy is good these same folks are complaining about something else about “the system”. As unyielding as they are, the Torah is as strong as ever.
“it’s perfectly permissible for a guy in learning to take tzedakah”
From who??? Perhaps only from Jewish sources.
Josh31, Something is muttar unless you know it’s assur. I don’t recall you advocating chumros in the past. And you shouldn’t. Chumros inivitably lead to serious failures in other areas, as Rav Dessler ZT”L said. Halacha, however, is not a chumra. Cheating the government to get subsidies is a violation of gezel akum and a serious shanda.
I remember a Gemara warning against taking tzedakah in such situations from non Jews.
The question needs to be asked. I do agree that real gezel is worse.
In my local yeshiva, the question WAS asked to the Rosh Yeshiva ZT”L. the answer was yes, except for the bizyonos like welfare which are only used by the really bad off and gives you a bad feeling by taking it.
The Real Unemployment Rate, which includes people who have given up trying to find jobs, now stands at 17.5%. Nobody will be running stories on people taking money and not looking for jobs.
“the answer was yes, except for the bizyonos like welfare”
These types of questions usually require highly individualistic answers.
For example, a Rov may guide a specific couple to use birth control for a limited time; and then what hits the “street” is that Rov so and so permits birth control.
This was a “klal” answer, for his kolel. The hanhala of the yeshiva gave it out. If you’re looking for real chumros, you might want to try Mogen Avraham zman for krias shema, Rabbeinu Tam zman for Motzai Shabbos, Beis yosef Glatt (with Ashkenaz psakim as well),single-malt scotch, etc. These chumros have a real halachic basis, as opposed to something vague like taking money from the government, which seems to be a chumra designed to do nothing more than make it harder to stay in kolel, and which no rav I know of supports.
Jothar, which government programs were permitted and which forbidden?
How big a Kolel was involved?
Programs which normal working people take like WIC, were permitted. Programs liek welfare and food stamps (at the time, the requirements were much tougher) were jot. Food stamps recently became easier to get than WIC and was renamed SNAP. Now it’s allowed by the rules. Of course, this place isn’t other yeshivas, and evry yeshiva is entitled to make their own gedarim, as it’s a 5th shulchan aruch thing.
The Yeshiva you are describing wants Torah without Bizayon (disgrace).
When someone is forced (G-d forbid) to go begging or on real welfare because he was discouraged from “learning a trade” I see tremendous human suffering and an undermining of Kavod HaTorah.
Every boy needs to be counseled separately, and only those who are not at risk of disgrace should be advised to pursue the Kollel path.
Josh31, Rav Moshe Feinstein in his tshuva (YD 2:116) praises those who suffer the bizyonos of tzedakah to learn Torah. I have yet to hear any rav of stature suggest otherwise.
“I have yet to hear any rav of stature suggest otherwise.”
The Yeshiva you refered to above decided that the bizyonos of real welfare was too much.
The bizyonos of actual begging either door to door or in shul are even greater.
The reason why Arayos (immorality) are so stringent is because of the associated human degradation. The term used in the Gemara regarding such matters is “Kalon” (degradation).
Are you actually comparing learning in kollel to arayos?
Holy delayed reaction, Batman, but to anyone who seems to be saying that sechar is in direct proportion to the action’s facilitating limud Torah, what does “ein hamidrash ha’ikar ela hamaaseh” mean? Isn’t fulfilling any of the 613 our ticket?
I am not so sure that after 120, they’re going to tell me it was better that I sit and learn than be able to do my part to pay for my childrens’ chinuch. Who says that doesn’t come first? Our Yeshivos are struggling enough as it is, and believe me, the next generation is probably going to have it even tougher.
I am comparing the bizyonos of publically begging with the bizayon of the naarah ha-amorasah from which Torah commands us to save her by all means necessary.
Just as we must protect our daughters from the bizyonos of arayos, so must we protect our sons from the bizyonos of a lifetime of publically begging (G-d forbid).
Josh31,
Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L paskened against you in his Igros Moshe (YD 2:116 and YD 4:36), along with the other roshei yeshiva. There is no bizyonos when one is being an eved hamelech. That said, my Rosh Hayeshiva ZT”L felt that one still shouldn’t take the real low-level stuff. I agree 100% that we should all support the benei torah so they don’t have to take it. Being that we are not, the choice is government assistance or stop working. The better of those 2 options is continuing to learn and taking government assistance.
Gregaaron,
there is more than one derech to avodas Hashem, and not everyone is meant to sit and learn in kollel. In fact, my rebbe ZT”L used to believe that for most peole there were diminishing returns after 5 or 6 years, and then tey were better off working (hopefully in klei kodesh) to get to the next level in avodas Hashem. You still have a chiyuv to learn as much as you can before and after work, however. Rashi in parshas Bechukosai says “Bechukosai teileichu” means “tihyu ameilim batorah”- working hard in Torah. That applies to everyone, not just the kollel yungeleit. “Bechukosai tim’asu” means NOT being ameilim in torah, as Rashi says too. Even we baalei battim have to learn. Not everyone is meant to sit and learn in kollel all day. But everyone is meant to learn.
Jothar, your Rosh Yeshiva ZTL was definitly staking out a much more moderate position than the Original Poster of this thread who has since stopped posting.
Gregaaron:
Well said & good point. I often wonder if all those (like the letter writer from the Yated a couple of weeks ago) who brush off their tuition responsibilities will be held accountable after 120.
Tuition breaks are a form of tzedakah. I used to be on the other side of this argument but I’m no longer sure. Paying extra tuition so a kollel yungerman can have his kids attend yeshiva is a form of supporting Torah, and you WILL receive sechar as if you learned, even though you were working. Everyone has their own derech to Avodas Hashem. he schools which have a lower ratio of kollel parents are the MO schools, and their tuition is HIGHER despite the decreased tuition scholarships. Live and let live.
“Tuition breaks are a form of tzedakah.”
The higher the full tuition amount, the less bizayon it is to apply for a scholarship.
Hence, some schools set tuition so high that the bizayon is very minimal, so that no one is inhibited from applying to the school.
Jothar said: “Tuition breaks are a form of tzedakah”
As such one should do anything to stop/reduce the amount of the Tzedaka they are taking. As per the following (Rambam Matnos Aniyim Perek Yud)
?? [??] ???????? ??????? ????? ???????, ??????????????? ????????, ????? ?????????? ????????????, ????? ?????????? ????? ??????? ??? ??????????; ????? ?????? ???????? ?????????, ?????? ?????????? ??????, ????? ??????????? ????????????. ?????????? ????? ????? ??????????, ?????????–??????? ????????????, ?????????? ???????????? ??????????; ????? ?????????? ????????????: ?????? ????????? ??????? ??????????? ?????????, ????? ?????? ?????, ????? ????? ???????? ????? ???????? ?????, ?????????????; ????????? ?????? ????????.
?? ????????? ??????????–????? ????? ???????? ??????, ??????????? ??????????, ??????????? ???????? ??????????, ?????????? ?????????? ?????????????; ????? ???????? ??? ??????????, ????? ???????? ????? ?????????????? ?????.
The only argument I have heard is that there is no way someone in Kollel (with no skills and at best a weak high school education) can make by working what they make in kollel (off the books, MOFES & other government help, as well as discounts from stores), so they may as well stay in Kollel.
Aiyzeh Hu Chacham Haroeh Es Hanolad.
I (personally) have given up on others doing what is right, I can only do what is right myself (and perhaps convince others or at least give them enough doubt to ask a non-nogayah Rav).
BTW MO schools have more frills (gym, band, sports teams, etc.) so their costs are higher. They also pay better (which is not a bad thing, as they can get better rabbaim & teachers).
gavra, Earlier in the thread it was brought that you are allowed to take tzedaka in order to learn, per the Rema and Shach in Hilchos Talmud Torah.
BTW, despite the higher pay I would strongly dispute that MO Yeshiva’s have better Rebbeim.
MM:
That wasn’t the point I was trying to make (to get out of kollel). I assume everyone in kollel who does not pay full tuition has asked their non nogaiyah Rav who then told THEM to stay & take tzedaka, so that is off the table.
I was saying that someone in kollel still has the responsibility to pay tuition, and should work a second/night job (as many in kollel do) to pay some/most tuition, instead of shrugging it off due to the cost being insurmountable. I know someone in kollel who every summer worked in (I believe) Bear Sterns so that he should not have to take tzedaka. Many Rabbaim work in camps, or for their family businesses during Bein Hazmanim. There is no reason why Kollel should equal Tzedaka, it should be a last resort.
The letter writer in the Yated (who I mentioned earlier) felt “bad” that she did not pay tuition, but was still unwilling to work more than part-time to pay it. That was my “point”, not “no one should be in Kollel”.
Lastly, better is a matter of degree to what they would have gotten otherwise, not as compared to a Maggid Shiur in the Mir. 🙂
Check out Igros Moshe YD 2:116 and YD 4:36. If there is no way to work and have the same level of havana it’s permitted to take tzedakah money to learn.
Interesting tidbit from the Yated parshas Vayeira (I’m a bit behind):
The Steipler used to warn parents against going into debt by buying apartments for their sons-in law in Yerushalayim and Bnei Brak. Someone pointed out to him that the “shpitz” bochurim demanded such apartments. he replied, “Klal yisroel has never been built by “Shpitzim”. Only those who learn with humility and without demands will emerge as talmidei chachamim. Nothing will come of those who make excessive demands.”
Jothar:
Does that apply to supporting children in Lakewood as well? 🙁
to GAW: what makes you think it’s just Lakewood?
thank you Jothar! That was a breath of fresh air!!
and just to add two more quotes:
“mi zos oleh min hamidbar” (shir hashirim) – real greatness arises from someone who lives a life of “desert,” meaning without excessive gashmiyus.
“hizaharu m’bnei haaniyim shemehem taitzai torah.”
be careful with the sons of the poor because torah will come out of them.
(sorry about the missing sources)
It applies EVERYWHERE. The midrash says that Torah is compared to water. Just like water sustains all life, so too Torah. And just like water flows from a high point to a low point, Torah only sticks to one who is humble.
Torah is the most important thing. but making DEMANDS spoils it. The kollel yungeleit who DON’T demand a lot will become the next crop of gedolim and manhigei hador.
Torah is dee besteh sechora.
Very True!!!
Bump
One is only able to use the “excuse” of torah kineged kulam when he is really actually learning. If one is just reading pesukim and translating and say their mother asks them to do the dishes, they have to go acc to their mother.
I know a Rav who told me that the only time he ever used torah kineged kulam was when he was learning a deep sugya for 4 hours, then his wife asked him to do the laundry and he said no…..
Yeshivishe kup – Reading Psukim in the Torah even if you don’t understand them is limud Torah and the rule of Talmud Torah kneged kulam applies as far as I know.
However, if it is a Mitzva sheaina yachol leiasos al yidai acheirim (a Mitzvah that no one else can do), you have to do it. I would guess that kibud av v’eim falls in that category.
However, if you are deep in the middle of a sugya and it will disturb your learning, it’s possible that it is different, since it might fall under the category of “chayecha kodmim.” In general, kibud av v’eim is not supposed to be at the expense of your own life, and it makes sense that one would not have to interrupt “real learning” to wash the dishes, especially since it is doubtful that the dishes absolutely have to be washed at that moment and that there is no one else around to do it (just a guess regarding what your Rebbe meant).
I am surprised that your Rav’s wife asked him to do the laundry when he was deep in a sugya. I am guessing that was a rare occurrence, and hence, the reason he only had to decline helping her due to his learning one time in his life.
Based on the way your post is phrased, I am guessing that your Rebbe was trying to be mechanech his students not to try to come up with excuses not to help their parents.
LU- It’s actually a funny thing- my rebbi asked me a stunning question: When we learn torah, are we actually learning torah the way that is meant to be learnt according to chazal? Because as you may know, Rambam has a whole way to learn torah Kihalacha. My Rebbi gave a whole shiur on it in the Providence yeshiva on shavuos and he wrote up a whole mihalech to learn, Using Rambam, the Alshich, and also the Chinuch. If it would get past the moderators (hint hint moderators), I would share the google doc with his source sheet and a chart showing his whole mihalech to learning torah.
Yeshivishe kup
So it really might not be learning torah (even though one would no doubt still get schar)
Yeshivishe kup – first of all, I’m a girl, so I actually don’t know what you’re talking about. Second of all, I don’t think that means that it doesn’t count as learning Torah. The one thing I know about the topic is that Torah Shebichtav counts as learning whether or not you understand it, but for Torah Sheb’al peh, you have to understand it. But I can’t imagine that the mehalech you’re using matters. According to that logic, it would be bitul Torah to learn the way most people learn.
So for you it doesn’t really apply, because women don’t have a mitzva per say to learn torah. Yet it is a very commendable thing to do.
It isn’t bitul torah if one is just reading it because if they were really trying to learn, it would be to their fullest potential and no one can criticize one who is trying their best. its between them and hashem.
Also I forgot to include that the mihalech is to be mikayem the MITZVA of learning torah, not just stam learning.
Isn’t the mitzvah to be “Osek” in words of Torah, as per the first of the Birchos HaTorah (La’asok B’Divrei Sorah) that we say each morning ? That should open up a wide area of acceptable reading/learning/engrossing (if that’s a word) in Torah study.
Osek until what point? The rambam uses the psukim that are mekoros in the torah to say that you really have to be osek to a certain point. I will put the shiur in the next post ( its kinda long)
sorry i had trouble getting it on without a link. cant post it
yeshivishe kup: Osek until what point?
Are you asking in terms of time or accomplishment ? I assume all would agree that there is some Chiyuv to 1) know how to perform mitzvos properly, and 2) spend one’s time not otherwise taken up by earning a living, etc.. in the study of Torah. The latter would seem to serve several purposes, even if one studies those areas that are not “Nogei’ah L’Maaseh”, such as development of Midos Tovos, development of an appreciation for the “wisdom” of the Torah and of Chazal, and last but not least, to keep oneself occupied so he doesn’t do other things, V’HaMaivin Yavin.
Perhaps you are trying to distinguish between those who study Torah as a subject versus those who study Lishmah.
Joseph – are you in kollel?
Joseph – are you in kollel?
I was wondering about the same thing.
by saying osek I mean that learning is more qualitative than quantitative. So by learning it the correct way, one is qualitatively learning exactly how the halacha mandates
mamish my guy has a CHIUV to learn in kollel chasvichalilla that he goes to work.
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