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I think we all agree that the more people learning Torah the better (Maybe I should end the post here? LOL)
Any other ideas on how to keep Kollel flourishing?
Most people do learn and work. It is the holy Kollel yungerleit, a small minority of the frum population, that dedicate themselves FULL-TIME to the Torah.
Joseph:
Hate to argue, but unless FULL-TIME is way more than yeshiva sdorim, then you can learn a parnossah before, after or between sdorim.
Typical Seder is about 9:15 – 1:00, 3-3:300 to 6-6:30 and 8:00 to 10:00 (if they go to night seder). There is plenty of time in there if you are willing to push yourself. If your sdorim look more like 7:00AM – 1:00, 1:30 – 6:30 (mincha in the middle), 7:30 – 11:30PM then I agree with you.
GAW – many people are in the B”M between sedorim every day.
As to SJS’s idea, I cry “Ponzi, Ponzi”
SJS, for years boys would get a degree, to have under their belts for when needed. The problem is, that there are many areas (and this was true 25 years ago too, as technology started to take off) that will get obsolete fast, like computers, so somehow it’s necessary to keep a foot in the door.
I don’t think kollel should be by merit only. OTOH I don’t think kollel is for everyone either. Why not expand the learner/earner concept to other areas besides mortgages and start encouraging our young men to work and learn half day, which will maximize their years in (not quite full time, true) kollel, and being machshiv these boys? I envision a day where this will be a real option for decent learners, not just those who may have had uneven learning histories, like many unmarried guys who are working now. This may be unfair stereotyping but a good number of working boys out there fall under two categories: professionals, whose school history was fine and learn well, and “working boys” whose academic resume was checkered.
Re gavra at work: what are the working options bein hasedarim? Tutoring? Haircutting? Handiwork? Other ideas? Anything besides tutoring will require some level of training and experience – when do these guys get the training?
Mrs. squeak: Agreed, but as I said to Joseph, there are those who are not. For those who have the schedule I lined out they are learning full time.
Mrs. Tzippi: College (on-line or in person). I am sure someone could figure out how to get college (for those who don’t want to go to a regular school) classes given somewhat close to yeshiva and Bein Hasdorim.
i like the sponsorship program, but that can prove to be very limited b/c not every single Jew is wealthy and those that are sometimes dont support the kollel lifestyle.
but whats wrong with the wife going out and earning a living?? were not in the medieval ages anymore, and yes, it IS possible for mothers to juggle their domestic responsibilities and a job. of course, im not gonna be narrow minded and say this is the way that all women should do it. im just saying that if theres a wife/mother out there that can handle it, then why not?? its a perfect option for many (not all!)
Mrs. squeak?
Its always best that a wife/mother stay at home (rather than get a job outside).
i’m female so don’t exactly know what learning entails, but sounds like it’s more strenuous than most other jobs. (i have brothers in kollel and brothers who work and that’s the feedback i get.) how realistic is it to demand 15 hours from a guy! even a the best guys would find that impossible, no?
BYM very often it’s not enough.
i understand that. that may be why its not really an option, unless she gets a great paying job and can balance kids and the hours. thats why its not for e/o.
Jospeh, i agree but i think that girls who really want to be moser nefesh for their husbands to learn pretty much full time for the rest of their lives can accomplish this, b’ezras Hashem, no matter what it takes
“HaBah L’Taher, Misayin Oso.”
joseph you’re right but how often do the wives of working men go out and get another job? it’s definately not ideal, but it’s not like it’s either the husband or the wife.
My point is that it is unfortunate that it may sometimes be a necessity. Ideally, if it is avoidable, it should be avoided. A wife/mothers place is at home.
i have a brother who went to college and graduate school. he has loans that he needs to pay back so he and his wife both need to work to get by. another brother is in kollel and his wife is home taking care of the kids. how does that work? everyone’s situation is different – kollel doesn’t necessarily mean the wife has to work. and working doesn’t mean the wife is always free to be home for the kids.
and just a side point: many wives whose husbands work are STILL not home for the kids. they spend their lives shopping. so maybe they SHOULD go to work. at least they’d be doing something productive.
pple are ignoring the obvious here – often the wife can get a job and its still not enough to support the family! (as obviously some pple here keep posting, how both they & husbands work, and they don’t have enough for themselves forget to support a kollel couple too…) It goes both ways…
I am going to faced with a lot of opposition for this post, but here goes:
I am not sure that kollel is necessarily the ideal. The concept of Torah Im Derech Eretz, although abused by people using to twist it for their own gain (see Torah U’Madda), believes that working is the ideal although it must always be “subserviant” if you will, to Torah study.
It is interesting, but the more one becomes a “lifer,” the less L’shmah his torah becomes. The businessman/lawyer/doctor who drags himself up in the morning to learn, and after a tiring day, drags himself back at night, is on an infinitely higher level than the “Lifer.”
Joseph,
1> If the wife stays hom, and the husband is in kolel, how do they eat and pay tuition?
2> The mother staying home, as mine did, is, I agree the ideal. I have good friends in Flatbush who wanted to the wife to stay home. However, to d oso, they needed a scolarship because the husband is a civil servant . The yeshiva ( not MO ) told them that the should get a job, no tuition assistance.
wow thanks for being brave- because you threw that out I think i’ll just add. we all the famous gemara in k’dushin chuf tes alef in which r’ yehudah states that “anyone who does not teach his son a trade, it is as if he taught him to steal”. Obviously learning a trade is for the purpose of working not for idle knowledge. Yes one should find as much time as possible to learn but the healthy way of living perscribed by this gemara is to have a trade.
Another point is back in europe, the percentages of boys in yeshiva was absolutly minuscule. Only the very elite of the bochrim got an oppotunity to learn in yeshiva. Yes there must be learning going on in klal yisroel in order for us to stay alive, but does every third rate bochur need to stay in yeshiva instead of being productive by helping klal yisroel in other ways?
my post was in regards to TOHIGHSCHOOLGUY
Learning full time is the absolute ideal, if money is not an issue, as the Rambam says in the end of Shmittah Vyovel…
?? [??] ????? ?????? ????? ????????, ????? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ???????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ??????????
???????? ?????????? ??????? ??????? ?’ ?????????? ??????????? ??????? ??? ?’, ???????? ?????? ?????? ??????????? ??????????, ??????? ????? ????????? ???? ??????????????? ????????? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ???????–????? ??? ??????????? ?????? ?????????, ????????? ?’ ??????? ??????????? ???????? ???????????? ?????????; ?????????? ??? ????????? ?????? ?????? ???????????? ???, ?????? ?????????? ???????????? ??????????????. ????? ??????? ?????? “?’, ?????-??????? ????????–??????, ????????? ?????????
”
Granted this means not worrying at all about money, which requires an unbelievable amount of Emunah and Bitachon, and the willingness to literally place your life in Hashem’s hands (not modern Kollel Bochrim!), but this is the ideal.
I don’t think anyone has to (nor should they) do an analysis of the viability of a frum institution/community/common practice. There are always other factors involved on the macro level that we cannot possibly assess, i.e. zechusim.
I’ve heard people saying XYZ cannot last – and they’ve been saying it for over 40 years – but it is still around.
If you want to decide on a micro level (e.g. I cannot stay in kollel anymore or I can only give this amount of money right now), that is something everyone should think about for themselves. But to evaluate the institution of widespread kollel learning as a whole? Don’t bother.
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