Kollel life with no parental support

We never had so many people in yeshivas and kollelim as we had now. Maybe in the midbar. This is welcome change from 100 years ago, when Chofetz Chaim was calling on Yidden in Poland to teach their kids chumash with Rashi without skipping prokim, form learning groups in shuls, women who can read to read several pages of niddah halochos to those who can’t, and not send kids to anti-religious Jewish schools where they teach stories from Tanach, and suffer being working poor instead of going to far-away countries where they can earn more money.

Still, we are obviously not producing proportional number of Chazon Ishes and Chofetz Chaims, as the small yeshivos of 100 years ago. So, these are obviously different institutions with different goals. Maybe using same name creates confusion in the discussions. Our communities found/decided that it takes 15 years minimum (from pre-K to post-HS yeshiva) or more (with kollel) to make sure our kids are not going OTD and keep enthusiasm for learning, and send their children into the same direction.

Not sure what all this talk is about…
I think the topic of this thread is about giving support or tips to those who are struggling/giving it all they have to continue their dedication to Torah growth between the walls of the Beis Medrash.
Any good words or eitzos?

there is nothing wrong with going to work to supporrt your family, its actually a mitzvah. in shulchan aruch hilchos talmud torah it says someone who is able to work and instead learns torah and gets supprted from tzedaks is בזיון התורה. then there are those who stay in kolel just to look good and fit in, and dont even learn, just talk and talk, and hak a tzinik about politics, (i hope not worse). this idea is ridiculous.

for those who want to check it up, its in shulchan aruch יורה דעה סימן רמו סעיף כא
it would be a good idea for the guys in bmg to learn hllchos talmud torah to see the way torah is meant to be studied in order that it shouldn’t be forgotten. many are able to learn כל התורה כולה before they get married like it says in shulchan aruch, or at least in the next few yrs but instead they spend a month on one blat gemarah learning every acharon, they hacking on every word, which even gedolim in the past generations like r’ shach spoke against.
sadly with this way of learning – torah is already forgotten.

but the bigger problem is the culture that people feel pressured to stay in kolel even when they are just wasting their time

To put chumros and kulos together: what if one can learn more by eating cholov hacompanies – cheaper and healthier? would you rather be machmir/meikel on the milk from a factory or on limud Torah? Maybe your answer would be – stay on bread & water, respect.

And, as we discussed before, “tzedoka” here may not include using non-Jewish programs to support poor, or taking money from unwilling public. I am sure there are kulos to support (pardon the pun) these positions, but, as we established in other threats, you could expect others to consider this treif. And the value of learning that general public might see as treif may not be kashered (what is crooked …)

avaira, just learn the whole hilchos talmud torah with the noseh kelim, youre goint to point out every line, no need to explain, you seem to claim yourself as a ben torah.
to learn and live חיי צער is a great thing, its midas chassidus, there are many other things that are midas chassidus
i always wondered why some people are so machmir in some mitzvos, but such a basic easy mitzvah like not shaving, which many (almost all) poskim say is asur even with an electric shaver, they disregared?

mr avirah, learn the whole sugya – to point out 1) read the worlds you posted again – its referring to rabonim and people who teach torah 2) learn the shach on what you quoted. lean the whole sugya finished.
litvaks hold learning halacha is שלא לשמה only לשם כבוד is לשמה

learn the sefer והדרת פני זקן, im pointing out that even though there are matirim, there are many many (robom) that hold it asur,
as apposed to no one hold its an oblogation to sit in kolel at all! you can go to work and learn perek ched shachris and arvis, even just krias shma is mikayem והגית בו יומם ולילה (sh”u hilchos masa umatan, and hilchos talmud torah)

Dear Sechel,

That sefer is an embarrassment. Full of misunderstandings. Shaving was a common practice before the rise of the Catholic Church. The Gemara and Rishonim discuss it in multiple places. There never was a point in time that all Jews had beards. It’s a straight forward sugya until we get to using one sharp blade on specific points of the face. So please don’t use Harry’s.

This is why limud hatorah is a never ending task. It simply won’t do for Jews to make up halacha.

nom, I’ll take the words of the chofetz chaim over your wikipedia information – he writes in tiferes odom that it was most definitely the practice of klal yisroel to have beards, and that it is part of the tzurah of a Jew.

it’s the opposite…it wasn’t until Italian Jews began removing their beards that such a thing ever existed.

while it was not assur (and still is not assur) to use things aside from a razor, that doesnt mean that Jews removed their beards…the rishonim also say that “megalchin” used in the mishnah doesn’t mean to remove a beard, but rather trimming.

From razors back to learning. We went through this sugya before and I fully admit that modern poskim are ok with taking funds. Aveira inference from “rav of the city” to anyone with a desire not to work is unfortunate, probably just an accident, he used to give better sources. I can’t say to what degree poskim accept funds – nobody quoted Moshe Feinstein allowing using welfare and such, if I recall, but given wide acceptance of the practice, I presume someone paskens this way privately.

for people looking for chumros – why not do chumros in this issues?

If you are not currently able to fully avoid being supported, try to minimize relying on kulos. Say, return part of government subsidy back to the government. Even a small part, just as a statement of intent. Then see if you can increase that. Consider all your expenses with a fresh eye as Alter from Novordok did – if I live at someone else’ expense, how can I reduce my spending and return the money?

It is not just tannaim and amoraim who paid their own way, pretty of modern T’Chachamim did that (including not working as a Rav). Chofet Chaim sold his books and had a story. R Salanter refused Rabbinical position. R Yitzele Peterburger served as a Rav but then went back to having a pub with his wife, if I am not mistaken. Someone asked him whether pouring mashke was better than being a Rav?! He said – of course. I can think of Torah while filling glasses, but I can not while dealing with balabosim.

Dear Always,

That Mishna is the clear source that Derech Eretz does not mean sustenance.

So we can infer from that, that one who has just a career and learns Torah does not have Derech Eretz.

Dear Always,

Derech Eretz means the way the natural world is viewed throughout time by the human intellect and involvement in worldly affairs.

Dear Always,

So clearly form this Mishna Derech Eretz is not Melacha because then we have a contradiction of two00 statements for the same concept.

The definition I gave is the very reverse of Torah. Which means revealed insight and instruction.

Sq Root, where does he not get the credit? Sure in the eyes of Hashem and probably his friends also.

And how is it different from a regular FFB person who goes to the yeshiva after high school?
Is it that he (a) pays and loses money v. kids whose parents pay? (b) he chose himself rather than under parental and social pressure?

Square, is right.

BTs get very little accolades for a sacrifice that would is considered extraordinary for their BF peers.

Sechel, the meshech chochma holds that לעולם יעסוק applies even to a person who is not keeping the mitzvos, as long as he’s learning as a Mitzvah, and not just to enjoy chochma etc..

The main point of the what Sechel quoted is that the student is actually learning Torah and not just amassing knowledge to serve his own designs. Kollel is a step down from that. It’s not so simple to even apply the Rambam to Kollel.

Aaq, because the rema says “yes omrim afilu bbari” and says that that’s the minhag. His example is a rov, but it’s not limited to it; lefikach means that it’s an example of that din. The nosei keilim are clear that we follow those who argued on the rambam.

Others, including the ohr hachaim, say that in our time(450 years ago!) People are less spiritual and thus cannot learn and work in an ideal way, so it’s better to drop the work if possible

The idea of a choleh isn’t that he’s ill, it’s that he can’t practically do both. We cannot practically do both in our time, be successful in learning and make a living at the same time. Yes we can go to talmud readings at night, but this is, for most people, not the same as serious learning.

n0, a fair point. It was more popular to get by in older time by doing simpler things. I don’t think it was completely easy – there are many gemoras discussing details of farming, and it is clear that even what we consider the most boring job of a farmer (which maybe 80% of people were engaged in) has a lot of things to think about. If you think, when we talk about “Creative” jobs (emulating the Creator), the farmer is literally the one who creates new plants from seeds. Maybe that is the reason we have so many mitzvos for the farmers – from bikurim to hamotzi – so that we don’t get carried away by our own creativity. There is a reverse joke also: a farmer shows his field and is reminded – you did this with G-d’s help. He says – sure, sure – and then shows uncultivated land – and this is what He did without me. But back to your main argument:

so, first, it is still possible to earn money while keeping your mind on the Gemora – gas station, store attendant … there is nothing embarrassing here. See R Yitzele Peterburger above. Maybe moral hazard is in play – people can get more in terms of money and insurance from social program and other support than from earning a living. This is a well-documented problem in black community.

2nd, not everyone earned their living in simple jobs. Merchants (not every socher is smart, pirkei avos). Proper ones would limit their activity to what is needed. I heard a story about Persian Jews who would travel for 2 weeks to get some rare carpets, then come back, sell them, and learn the rest of the year. Can this be done in modern professions? For sure, accountants can work tax season only. Maybe lawyers and real estate agents can.

3rd, in our times, it is possible to choose a kosher profession, where you are not wasting time to earn livelihood but actually doing something that Hashem wants you to (in fact, even a farmer does, but you can always argue that a goy next door can do that). How about being a surgeon, a pediatrician, invent something in medical technology [reportedly, when someone in Slobodka made fun of Einstein, Alter called him (a student, not Albert) an idiot]. I asked a Rav whether a surgeon deserves recognition for chesed, he said – if his motivation is for chesed, not for money (he can still get paid). So, it is possible.

Now, is any of the above easy? Not, of course. Ok, so these are harder mitzvos.

Aaq, you’re not reading the words. He says the yesh omrim, then he says that that’s the halacha. Then he says lefikach – therefore, since the halacha is that way(which includes anyone), the rav of the city etc…

Rav moshe writes that someone who wants to follow the shitah of not being supported in our time is a baal gaavah. Clear in igros moshe; I’ll get it when i have s chance.

On the rambam itself, the radvaz writes that if we folllwed this shitah, “kvar nishtakach torah myisroel,,” torah would have already been forgotten from yisroel.

It’s not about idealism, it’s about protecting the Torah. And those like you who say to stop supporting Torah are attempting to minimize kovod shomayim, minimize Torah and the development of its chachamim. Why? Gadol hasinah shel amei haaretz…

or IM YD 4:36?

Avira, again, it is a problem – you quote YD 246 stopping in a middle of the sentence skipping – justification (so that people not see chacham working and disregard Torah) and asur for rich ones. And another _kulah_ (Rema’s words, sic!) for the ashirim to take willing donations to support Torah, etc, etc.

I agree that others disagree and the R Moshe and others recommend (to whom? to what degree?) the opposite, but we can’t even have a discussion if you can’t quote Sh’A straight. I am not ready for CNN style discussion where every side digs up their best arguments without overall concern for truth.

Not sure why you think I am suggesting to stop support Torah learning. To the opposite. Same as R Moshe writes 50-70 years ago that without full-time learners we will have no Torah left, I am among those who think that there will be no Torah left if we will not abandon extreme measures that might have been necessary and teach people derech eretz in all senses, wonderfully illustrated by your last words.

Avira, I was concerned that you misuse Rema with an emphasis that Torah debates presumes striving for Emes rather than showing off sources for your side. And the more you know, the more is your responsibility to stay with emes. This is not controversial, this is throughout mesora.

On Igros Moshe, there are several teshuvos. I looked just at one, I think he is suggesting several possible shitos – whether we accept that Rambam, and your conclusion is only under one of them.

I personally have no questions on R Moshe’s shita at the time & place he was. It is hard to put oneself into a different circumstance or to prove that to others, but I was, for about a year, part of a remote community that had no leadership and learning, and I spent a year running a school’s Jewish dept, leaving math to others, even as I was more qualified to run the math dept. I don’t even remember who was running the math dept, I had my priorities straight.

todays hayom yom:
מס”נ [מסירות נפש] הראויה לבני תורה הוא כדרז”ל [כדרשת רבותינו זכרונם לברכה] אדם כי ימות באהל, להמית את כל התענוגים בעניני עולם. כי אפילו דברים קלי הערך בתענוגי עולם, מונעים המה מלהיות מסור ונתון באהלה של תורה.
a simple example: someone could go to extreme and have a 2 room apt, like they did yrs ago, and save maybe 35k a year.
another point: its interesting to me, when i was growing up 20 yrs ago, the conmen practice was for the husband to work, and the wife to stay home, and people were fine with one salary, what exactly happened today? i did notice that today people indulge much more in physical things, big houses, vacations at least compared to where i grew up