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DY: Just because someone works doesn’t mean they don’t learn! I work full time. I also have a chavrusah every night, and attend other shiurim throughout the week. I don’t consider myself an ama’aretz.
You have to admit, learning 12 hours a day is more than learning 2 hours a day.
(FTR, I wasn’t calling you an am ha’eretz, ch”v.)
Zahavasdad – Someone once asked R’Matishyohu Salomon shlita the same mathematical question that you just raised.
I don’t remember the details exactly, but it was definitely to the gist of that the same way previous people have managed, is how future doros will manage as well. As in – it is sometimes unexplainable how people have managaged, but they have and will continue to do so (with Hashem’s help – No one has thought of bringing Him into the equation in this thread.)
It seems like the posters here don’t know many happy kollel families. I happen to be acquainted with plenty of them, and yes plenty people are doing it without parental support.
There are also plenty people who have a side income whilst in Kollel so I’m not sure why everyone here is painting such a black picture for an ideal life.
If one is not able to do this, there is the middle way of appreciating those who do it, rather than trying to make it sound wrong to do the ratzon Hashem (yes you can’t refute that Hashem is happy when people learn).
DY- Just because someone learns for longer doesn’t mean its “more”. Chronolgically it is more, yes they are taking more words of Torah in. But someone who is working to make a parnassa to raise Jewish children is living Torah “more” than someone who sits and learns it.
This shouldn’t be a compare-compare situation. You can’t say someone who learns for 12 hours learns more than someone who learns for 2. Hashem deosn;t work on hours a day. Hashem works with intentions of a person. Hashem works with how much a person wants to serve him, and how a person serves him. It isnt for us to say someone who learns for 12 hours learns more than someone who learns for 2. that could easily balance out with someone who makes a kiddush Hashem daily in his workplace, doing honest buisness dealings in a Kippa etc.
Just to clarify, I am chas veshalom not agaisnt someone who learns in Kollel. In fact I am in university now to get a good degree and I hope that maybe I will be able to support my own husband in Kollel. But I think it is unfair to say one life is better than another. That produces winners and losers. Some boys can’t learn all day with kovea itim (if my husband can’t, that is totally fine as long as he is kovea itim leTorah)
I happen to know many Kollel Families, They actually happen to be family members. However it is not place to to ask the real questions so one must guess what the real situation is. They would never admit the real situation
You can tell by their overall appearence , things like being emaciated. Going to their houses , seeing their clothes etc are hints what the real sitatuation is.
A few had admitted to me that “Programming” (Meaning government Programs) was one of things they did.
FYI It is averiah to rely soley on hashem’s miracles for help. One is not allowed to go in the middle of the BQE and ask Hashem to save you.
One cannot rely on a miracle for Parnassah, One cannot buy a lottery ticket and expect hashem to give you the winner so you learn all day. Relying on Hashem means send out job resumes, Go to Work and then Hashem will help provide you
Ummmm… A jew who cares…have you not noticed the financial crisis that is happening now in Israel, mainly in the sector where men learn in kollel? They are NOT managing.
Enough of these miracle-promises. People need to choose their lifestlye based on facts and reality.
DY: It’s not about numbers. They don’t give you a Bechina in Shamayim and the one who is most holding wins. Chagigah 5b is a very important Gemara.
How many kollel families in America are starving? In Eretz Yisrael it’s much too common. We have to do something. How can we go on with or peaceful(ish) lives while our brothers starve?
I’m giving up. I’m not interested in going back and forth about how it is possible to be in kollel since you don’t seem to be interested in hearing that, though I think you are all just way way way off base. (and I think it’s sad that that’s the main opinion to be found on something which is called Yehiva World News).
If the couple is committed it is possible.
In fact I am in university now to get a good degree and I hope that maybe I will be able to support my own husband in Kollel.
Why? If it’s all the same anyhow…
A few had admitted to me that “Programming” (Meaning government Programs) was one of things they did.
And why is this a problem? If the government is willing to pay able-bodied people to sit and study religion, why should you have any qualms with it (as long as it is done legally?)
As Yayin Yashan says, in EY it is a much bigger issue. From a recent Adopt-A-Kollel e-mail:
RABBOSAI, A FIRE IS BURNING IN ERETZ YISROEL. THAT FIRE THREATENS TO CONSUME THE OLAM HATORAH. LITERALLY.
I thought I knew whatever there is to know about Kollelim and yungeleit in Eretz Yisroel. After all, I speak to them on a daily basis. Nothing could have prepared me, though, for these face to face meetings, where words spoken over the phone take on a whole different meaning when said in person. One Rosh Kollel after another came to us depicting what his yungeleit are going through. People do not have food. Children go hungry. What can you tell a Rosh Kollel who tells you a yungerman in his kollel owns ONE shirt?! Yes, ONE shirt! Weekdays, Shabbos, Yom Tov…the same single, solitary, threadbare shirt.
How can you turn away a Rosh Kollel who says that in his kollel there are yungeleit who own one suit and who have not bought themselves a brand new suit since the chasunah?! How can you look someone in the eye, when he says, he has not been able to buy his wife an outfit in 15 years??!! How can you turn away a person who does not have milk for his children? How can you turn away a person who gives ONE formula bottle to his baby each day, because he cannot afford sufficient formula?
DY, any thoughts?
DY: It’s not about numbers.
You missed my point, unless you think it’s not better to learn more. Sure, ????? ???? ???, but what is the ?? striving and yearning for?
You don’t by any chance have a different ????? which takes out the words
?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????, do you?
And why is this a problem? If the government is willing to pay able-bodied people to sit and study religion, why should you have any qualms with it (as long as it is done legally?)
This is the united States not Israel. There is no Stipend for Kollel in Lakewood from the US Government.
People do things that might be legal, but are sketchy and do leave a bad taste in peoples mouths. Like In-laws buying a house and then renting to children and the government pays the rent to the parents via section 8. This might be legal, but its not something people would like.
Or people simply getting paid off the books so they are eligible for more government subisidies
Gavra, my thoughts are that Eretz Yisroel and chu”l are two entirely different worlds. You know my thoughts regarding the military service; I wish it were optional. If it became optional, you would see the situation there more closely resemble the one here. It wouldn’t happen right away, because there’s a certain culture ingrained, but it would happen (quicker than it’s already happening).
The appeal is heartrending, I hope exaggerated, but I don’t know. If someone were in that matzav here, I would say, “get a job, fulfill your kesuvah!”, and in fact, I haven’t seen any who don’t try. I really can’t cast blame on yungerleit there, though, because I really don’t know what the options are.
What you’re also neglecting to mention is the upside. A friend of mine was recently in E.Y. for a family event, and he was astounded by the way you can find people (not necessarily kollel people) in the batei midrash learning b’hasmadah at all times of day and night. Even the “sichas chulin” is on a different plane – people who we might consider ordinary baalei battim are quoting Gemaras, Midrashim, Rishonim, Acharonim, etc. back and forth in ordinary conversation.
I have heard from people like Berel Wein that people in Israel are DISCOURAGED from working.
I heard of a story from a Rav here whose daughter married someone from Bnei Brak. Since she was from the US she spoke perfect english and a few places wanted to hire her since she spoke perfect english. She was discouraged from taking these jobs.
People do things that might be legal, but are sketchy and do leave a bad taste in peoples mouths. Like In-laws buying a house and then renting to children and the government pays the rent to the parents via section 8. This might be legal, but its not something people would like.
Either it is legal or not. Plenty of things “leave a bad taste” (such as inversions, defaulting on loans, structured investment vehicles, and incorporating in Ireland), but companies do them all the time. There is no reason why individuals can’t take advantage.
DaasYochid – Fair enough, assuming the absolute issur of military service (which is very debatable, but that is their shittah and almost Yeharg V’al Yaavor). I will add though that after a certain age, I believe the government will no longer draft you (it may be 35, perhaps someone in Israel can help?). At that point, they should be able to get a job stocking shelves or in construction to earn something to feed their families.
AS for the Sichas Chulin, I believe you are underestimating the Yeshivish Olam in America.
I’m talking about someone who is familiar with the yeshiva olam in America, and was still impressed with the difference.
I have heard from people like Berel Wein that people in Israel are DISCOURAGED from working.
I heard of a story from a Rav here whose daughter married someone from Bnei Brak. Since she was from the US she spoke perfect english and a few places wanted to hire her since she spoke perfect english. She was discouraged from taking these jobs.
BS”D
With all due respect, you are dealing with a separate issue. The Charaidi shittah in EY is that they have to be separated from the rest of the population in order to maintain their Kedusha (right or wrong is not the issue here). (This is one reason why no one wants to hire Charaidim, as they impose work conditions of either their own isolation or Charaidism on the entire office.) In your example, where an English speaking position would have to deal in-person with non-Charaidim, one certainly L’shitasam would be discouraged from taking such a position. This has nothing to do with the general idea of working for women, where in EY there are many Charaidi Woman Only call centers and other jobs that do not require such exposure.
zahavasdad, who was discouraging her?
I’m talking about someone who is familiar with the yeshiva olam in America, and was still impressed with the difference.
Of course there should be a difference between those who spend 2-3 years in Kollel vs those who spend 20, but is that worth it?
Maybe I am mistaken, but a Frum person should behave properly like Hashem wants us too and not teeter on the ledge of things that are sketchy.
I cant say Hashem would be too proud if someone did something that people would frown upon in the name of torah like giving the section 8 rent money to the parents.
but is that worth it?
I suppose that depends on one’s priorities, doesn’t it?
“Either it is legal or not.”
Is it really so black and white? May I suggest any number of works written by Rav Ahron Levine Z’l.
Econimics and Jewish Law, or perhaps Business Ethics in Jewish Law or perhaps Economic Morality and Jewish Law (among many other books he wrote).
I am not here to pasken, but you will see that it is not so simple. Where does “hin tzedek” (your “yes” should be sacred) come in to play. What about Vihyisem Nikeyim? Geneivas Daas? These are not abstract concepts.
I suppose that depends on one’s priorities, doesn’t it?
It is difficult to think of our religion as one that prioritizes individual learning over feeding one’s children. To take the other side, it is offen a Gemorah (that I quoted earlier) in Eiruvin.
?????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???
?????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????? ????? ?????
The final arbiter would have to be Halacha, in which we Pasken against the Gemorah in Eruvin. From the Rambam Ishus 12:14
?? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ????, ?? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ??????? ??????, ?? ????? ??? ?? ????. ???? ?????, ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ?????; ??? ?? ???–?????? ??, ???????? ????, ??????? ??. ?? ?? ???–??????? ???? ?????? ???????, ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????, ???? ??? ???? ???? ???, ???? ?? ?? ???????. ???? ????? ???? ?????, ??? ??.
So Halacha says the priority should be the children. Unless you have another read on it?
Maybe I am mistaken, but a Frum person should behave properly like Hashem wants us too and not teeter on the ledge of things that are sketchy.
I cant say Hashem would be too proud if someone did something that people would frown upon in the name of torah like giving the section 8 rent money to the parents.
I am certain that Rabbis Kotler, Neuman, Shustal and Olshin would disagree.
I’m not really disagreeing with you, but there are two perspectives on this – the individual and the society.
DY: It’s actually funny because the old printings have a slightly different line in that Gemara that was censored due to the Christians. But yes, I have your line 🙂 . The point is acknowledgement of who you are.
The Rav’s Daughter was discouraged from taking the job from her husbands Rav . The Rav in the US wanted his daughter to take the job and was disapointed she did not take it.
I cant say Hashem would be too proud if someone did something that people would frown upon in the name of torah like giving the section 8 rent money to the parents.
I am certain that Rabbis Kotler, Neuman, Shustal and Olshin would disagree.
🙁 And Yes I do expect frum people to behave above the law. Why do you thnk there are gedarim for things that arent assur.
I’m not really disagreeing with you, but there are two perspectives on this – the individual and the society.
Would you mind elaborating? I’m not understanding your point.
You can have a society which lives in poverty, but not to the extent that children literally don’t have what to eat. The individuals who do r”l reach that point do not have to define or reflect on the society as a whole.
You can have a society which lives in poverty, but not to the extent that children literally don’t have what to eat. The individuals who do r”l reach that point do not have to define or reflect on the society as a whole.
1: They do reflect on the society if it holds them up as a paragon of sacrifices made for societal (NOT religious) goals.
2: Why has no one told this family to get out of Kollel ASAP and feed their family, as Halacha requires?
3: If this is an isolated incident, then why is this Adopt A Kollel’s example, and furthermore, why do the richer kollel people (who can afford their needs) not help in their support? Methinks that the problem is not isolated to a few, but rather spreads across a wide swath of the kollel population in EY.
Finally, if the “poverty” expectations were to live in a tent and forage for food, then this derech would certainly be feasible. Since each couple expects an apartment, store-bought food and heat, they should expect that the derech will not work.
In israel its customry for students to go to the Kotel on Shabbos and get invited for meals. A couple of seminary girls went and were invited to someone and they seemed kinda poor and the piece of chicken leg seemed of poorer quality. They were guests and did not want to say anything
The family had a 3 or 4 year old daughter and while they were eating the kid somehow said that mommy would reward her for giving up her chicken leg so the orchim could eat (Or something similar basically saying the shabbos food went to the guests and not the children). The girls felt terrible they had eaten food from a hungry little girl.
Chullin 91a, I believe.
Rachmana Litzlan if, after a century of living far from such a precipice of poverty, we have intentionally brought ourselves back there again.
Poverty has probably been the #1 reason people went OTD
Many people converted to Chrisitianity because there were no economic opportunties as jews.
As jews became emaciapated in Europe people left the Shtetels for better economic opportunties and left the shtel. People emigrated to the US because of economic opportunity.
People were starving and needed to feed their families. Many jews became communists because people were starving and needed economic opportunities.
The gloryfing Poverty failed miserably in the past. For every jew who stayed alot more left
As Reb Moshe used to say: Among the people that were moser nefesh to keep shabbos in America, some of the families children remained frum and some didn’t. The ones that used to say “It’s so hard to keep shabbos. We have to give up our jobs for it.”, had their kids go off. The ones that said “Shabbos is so special, we even give up our jobs for it”, had their kids remain frum. I’m seeing both sentiments in this thread regarding kollel.
Weve gone s long way from the original commenter. Regarding the original comment and to answer the question if it us a reality the answer is simple. The couple look at themselves and ask. Is the husband suited to learning in a kollel all day. Does he have the desire and ability to do so. Yes, no? What about half a day? Is she ready, willing and able to shoulder much of the financial responsibility? What expectations do they have if their spouse in terms of “help” and are they ready willing and able to commit? Have they spoken individually and as a couple to their rebbe or madricha regarding their goals and do they agree that those goals ate suited to them? Stop looking at e everone else, get hadracha fpe yourself ad an individual and as a couple.
i really think that kollel and learning is the proper path for a yid, but, when it means starving families, no clothing,no heating ect. its time to end the free-for all- opinion of kollel. kollel shouldn’t equal poverty, but yet since we encourage almost every single bachur(in these types of circles) to live a kollel lifestyle, we end up with many poverty stricken families. every single boy/man should learn, but not full day. only a select should be learning full day. kollel communities should be encouraging halfday work-halfday learn, and only boys who really desire to spend their whole day learning/ a select type of bachurim should be siting in kollel. if their are more people working a few hours a day, their is less money needed to support these families, and their wont be whole communities at poverty level. also, the money raised/miney the yeshiva has for the kollel will only need to be split amongst (ex.)500 families rarher than 100 families. in addition I think rabbanim should strongly encourage a equal(or close to equal) Issachar-zevulan trade rather than thousands of men learning and only tens of people actually supporting(financially)
I really think that (for example) the major rabbanim of Lakewood should really get together and dicuss a more practical plan for the kollel learning lifestyle. yungerman should be able to learn while not allowing these families to hit poverty level(and just live a simple lifestyle)
Health crazy: I don’t think it makes a difference to Hashem to sustain 100 families or 500. I also think there is nothing wrong with supporting yourself with government programs. I don’t want to sound like a racist, do I won’t give examples, but does anyone really think the other people taking advantage deserve it more? In response to the person who said a hundred years if progress have been undone; that is correct,a hundred years ago kollel was also looked down upon as foolish.
YYBC – we haven’t heard both sentiments here. There has been no firsthand account from a kollel man against his way of life.
The only people against here are outsiders who feel a need to paint a black picture of others affairs. I think people should follow their own daas torah rather than listening to the warped hashfkafos that people are bringing.
Whoever is doing as well as they are making out should perhaps start supporting those who are learning. They are upholding the world, and there is no way for a G-d fearing Jew to refute that.
Whoever is doing as well as they are making out should perhaps start supporting those who are learning. They are upholding the world, and there is no way for a G-d fearing Jew to refute that.
Since you made such a bold assumption that only Limud by those in Kollel uphold the world, I feel the need to ask you for a source.
I have quite close family members who are Kollel families. They are not close enough to me to reveal the finances, generally that is a taboo subject even when Kollel is not an issue.
Because they are quite close I do get information in bits and pieces and you can piece together a puzzle with a pretty good guess
Torah learning is only one of three things which uphold the world. It’s straight out in a Mishna.
Everyone knows the joke – Torah, avodah, and gemillas chassadim. The husband learns, the wife works, and the parents give gemillas chassadim.
As someone who learned in kollel for 14 years, and still allocates part of my daily schedule to learning (not enough!), I would just tell everyone, just like I told my own kids, ?? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???’. What’s good for this one is not necessarily good for the other. It depends on their situation. We have no idea of a family’s true inner workings. I have heard of cases where the wife might be displaying unmitigated support for her husband’s kollel learning, and it could really be so. But if her parents (“the mechutanim”) disapprove, there is a way to drop subtle and not so subtle remarks about wishing “your husband would do something already with his life,” etc. Ve’die le’chakimin be’remizah. After a while, the wife might find it difficult to resist such blandishments. This kind of situation unchecked, could and often does lead chas ve’shalom to serious problems down the road.
Bottom line, and this is the thrust of my posting: ASK SHEILOS!! ASK YOUR RAV/ROSH YESHIVA/MASHGIACH, someone who knows you and your family situation what you should do.
I would suggest you all take a look at Nefesh Hachaim Shaar Daled, which goes into depth about the importance of being immersed in Limud Hatorah, before posting further comments and personal views on this subject.
AJWC: Why? I read the first few pages, sounds like a Kol Koreh against the Musser movement and not relevant at all to our discussion. The second perek discusses that learning should be to understand Torah, not to degrade others who may not be in Kollel. 🙂 After that I realized you had a specific line you wanted me to see; which one?
I still wait for a source from you that only the learning of those in Kollel upholds the world, and not those who are not in Kollel.
Once that happens, I expect that you will begin to support me in Kollel and I’ll get to retire. 🙂
P.S. What happened to giving up? Do you still believe you will convince others, or are you subconsciously thinking that you may be convinced?
a jew who cares: Suggesting someone study Nefesh Hachaim is a personal view, because it likely follows your outlook. That also qualifies as a comment.
So in that spirit I suggest studying as well Chovos Halevavos in depth, especially Shar Bitachon for his views on working. Study also the sefer of Rabbeinu Avraham the son of the RMBM. Also study RMBM in Yad and in Avos where he takes a very harsh stance against studying and teaching Torah for money as well as not working at all. Notel chayav min haolam means losing your share in the afterlife.
You can take a quick peek at R’ Avigdor Millers opinion on only learning vs working (very pro the latter). Once your learning Avos, take a peek at the mishna in the second perek which says that any Torah without work causes sin. Torah im derech eretz is strongly encouraged, which is where the phrase comes from – which means work. See Rabbeinu Yonah there (very harsh – you become a thief etc etc). Check out Rashi. Avos is full of encouragement to learn Torah lishmah, but also about making a living. Hevai mimaet baysek does not mean none at all (like RMBM’s example of 3 hours a day working and the rest learning. That is the IDEAL. Today that is pretty much impossible to make a sustainable living)
And there is more, I need to jog my memory…It is an interesting note how everyone loves the RMBM especially “right wing” ideology, while anyone who studies his seforom like Moreh Nevuchim, Avos, etc etc sees right away that he was very into the rationalistic approach “left wing”. This is kind of a different topic, but they do have some overlap.
Keep this in mind: Everyone comes with mamarai chazal, gemorahs etc to support their opinion (like myself). Obviously they are all true, so that fact that you can spit one out does not prove anything because your hiding the other statement. What does prove something is if you can MAKE THEM ALL WORK. Which by the way, is not hard if you are honest with yourself and strip away your negios. RMBM does that when he talks about how those who immerse themselves into Torah and throw away the vanities of this world (like making a side income through shtick) become Hashem’s heritage, but he is clear that this only works for those who make it their sole occupation with all their heart and soul.
But they are the EXCEPTION TO THE RULE. Like Shevet Levi. If you want to join them, if you give it all you got – your the best. The truth is that most do not make the grade and there is a lot of wasted time in Kollel (by most, not all people) – quoted from Rabbi Miller and easily observable by any non biased individual.
Bottom line, study ALL Torah sources for an honest opinion not just the one you like.
Found it in Perek Yud Alef (11) as a Zohar in Vayikra.
???? ????? >??? ??? ???< ???? ????? ?? ?????
??? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ??????
???????? ???? ???????.
The perek quotes a whole bunch of Zohars regarding learning, for example how it is being Mekayim the world, and how anyone who learn Torah every day is Zoche to Olam Haba:
?????? ?????? >??? ??< ?? ??? ????? ?
???????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?
????? ????. ??????? ??? ???? ???? ?????
Shockingly, the Zohars do not limit the Kiyum to those in Kollel, but rather expands the right of Kiyum to all Jews (even MO, OO and Zionists, Chas V’Shalom!!!)
I know, it’s probably a modern-day addition and a forgery :-), so you will have to find me a different source that only Kollel learning (and none other) is mekayem the world.
Gavra – I’m not sure what you mean by mussar movement, the points he mentions are extremely relevant to our discussion. The whole shaar speaks about chasivus Limud HaTorah and the importance of using all ones time to learn Torah. Therefore the more time people spend on it and the more time they make available for it, obviously the more they are fulfilling this obligation. In Chapter 13 he quotes from chazal that Hashem created the world only for the purpose of learning Torah.
All Torah learning upholds the world and I never said otherwise, every single person which spends time learning is doing the ratzon Hashem, but since those in Kollel are immersed full day in learning Torah they are upholding the world the entire day.
I’m not telling you that everyone can be in Kollel, all I’m saying is that one has to appreciate and respect those who are living the ideal life of being fully immersed in Torah study.
I’m not trying to convince anyone to do anything – as I’ve said numerous times, that’s for each person to discuss with their own Rav. The reason I started posting again is since I feel it is wrong to sit back when no one is sticking up for the Torah, especially after comments to the effect that learning Torah causes people to go off the derech and emaciated kids.
In extreme cases of poverty where the family is suffering (though it’s up do them to decide whether they can cope with it, not outsiders or guests who don’t feel comfortable with their host’s financial situation), I agree with you that one can try find a way to bring in some extra money, the Chofetz Chaim also worked in a shop though he only had it open for the minimum time necessary and then went back to learning. It doesn’t have to be a contradiction to being in Kollel or learning full day/as much as one can.
Kol hakovod to everyone who is being moser nefesh for Torah and we should be mobilizing all forces to ensure that people can continue to do so easily rather than trying to stop the system.
Sorry for the long post, all that has been bottled up the past few days inside me whilst I have tried to keep silent, must be coming out…
Jewishness – I agree that it isn’t in my (or your) place to debate whether or not each individual is suited for kollel. I think that should be left for those that are more learned than I, you or Gavra.
The point I was trying to bring out was the chashivus of those who are able to do it and who are sometimes even moser nefesh for it, which hasn’t been echoed in this thread.
What I can say for certain is that everyone would agree that it is a terrible thing for people to paint a black picture of those that are doing the ideal ultimate way of living.
The least we can all do is to back and support them, each to his ability – and I’m sure that even your sources would agree to that. What better tzedaka can there be than helping people fulfill the purpose of this world’s creation.
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