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I don’t get how people who learn in kollel(presumabley follow halachah) take money from the government? How is this Mutar? You choose not to work yet get government assistance; food stamps and the like. Since when did our nation sink so low as to steal from a government who gives us so much opportunity to thrive in this country? Does their learning even count??
Dont be such an anti-semite. Would you rather the welfare dollars go to single welfare queens living in the hood?
It is 100% legal for Kollel families to accept food stamps, etc. And I hope EVERY qualified kollel family signs up for it. THAT’S where I want MY tax dollars to go to.
Why do you call that stealing, if they are following the rules?
Is it stealing when you take the Earned Income Tax Credit? It is just money for free from the government. No, you follow the rules, and the government does the stealing.
If you want to allege they don’t follow the rules, that would be another story. But you seem to have a problem even if they are following the rules, which makes no sense.
so low as to steal from a government
While I find it disturbing to find individuals who receive welfare and willingly don’t work, I am likewise disturbed by your choice of words. If it is legal, it is not theft, and you should not call the act “stealing.”
The Wolf
Touche
nope. your right. you win. go away.
It IS LEGAL for people to buy a house and rent the house to their children and collect Section 8 as rent.
Just because something is legal, doesnt mean its right
I always assumed the rules were that to accept food stamps or welfare you have to be actively looking for work, and you have to prove to the government that you are trying but failing. If you aren’t even looking for work, then you don’t qualify for food stamps. If that’s the case, then kollel members on food stamps are most likely lying to the government and stealing which wouldn’t be okay. However, if the rules is that anyone under a certain income level can accept food stamps, even if they aren’t looking for work, then lichorah there is nothing wrong with what they are doing. It’s probably stupid for the government to just give out free money without putting pressure on those people to actually contribute to society, but it’s their choice to give out free money, what’s wrong with taking it?
As we all know, while in halacha there are many things which while you can technically find a loop hole and get around a sin, you are, nonetheless, bringing yourself to a very low madrega and mida.
For instance, you may not have to return the change overage to a ben neichar, but you should, for the reason just mentioned.
Same thing with entitlements; it used to be a shanda to take, and for good reason. Now, we are just like all the chalerias. Whatever happened to making your shabbos meal like a weekday’s to prevent taking a handout and creating a chillul Hashem?
kfb,
You mean stealing halachicly? Because by US laws they aren’t doing anything wrong.
Also, even halachicly I don’t think its called stealing but…
Can’t rely in money of others.
If you put yourself into situation where you have to accept money from others then there will be a time when you will actually need it, meaning you’ll be poor.
If you learn and don’t work you’ll end up stealing (and I think forgetting your learning).
But if anyone has an opportunity to learn they for sure should take it or help someone else who is more capable.
pba and the wolf answered you quite well.
There is no law that requires one to work and be self sufficient.
Hey I’m not trying to start a big arguement…I just want to know what justifies finding a loophole in something and exploiting it.
Contrast that with your first post:
Since when did our nation sink so low as to steal from a government who gives us so much opportunity to thrive in this country? Does their learning even count??
Go jump in a lake.
I always assumed the rules were that to accept food stamps or welfare you have to be actively looking for work
Are you a lawyer? Did you even google the statutes to look at them?
Assumptions make a donkey out of you and umption.
I know someone on food stamps for works but is paid off the books, and the government is actively trying to find her a job because as far as they are concerned she is unemployed. She keeps turning down their offers but that in my opinion should be considered illegal.
I always assumed the rules were that to accept food stamps or welfare you have to be actively looking for work
The Rules for Food Stamps and Welfare are different.
You can get Food Stamps even when working its based on income.
Welfare has special rules like you cant own any property. Cant have a bank account and things like only 1 TV (I know Kollel people dont have a TV…But there are rules like that for household items)
Also there is a maximum of a lifetime of 5 years on welfare , there is not maximum for Food Stamps, Heap Section 8
Although the tone of the original thread is most certainly out of line and demeans those that are holding up Klal Yisroel worldwide, the larger question is – Is this what Hashem really wants?
In times past, those that were learning were supported by Yidden, and most often lived lives of severe poverty, and showed enormous Mesiras Nefesh to continue learning. A far cry from the majority of those learning in Kollel today who get free rent from the government, free food from the government, free medical care from the government, etc.
I’ve always been a believer that B’Zayas Apecha Tochal Lechem applied to ALL men – even those in learning. But lately my faith has been shaken after observing those that are learning living what seems to be much easier, less stressful lives, and actually living better than me. I, too, learned in Kollel, but when we had our third child and my familial support wasn’t enough to live on, I went out into the working world. I was not going to support my family on government programs.
I work an average of 10 to 11 hours a day (as do most of the working people I know), I have to count my measly two weeks of vacation and use them up all on Yom Tov, (and work Chol Hamoed – like today!) – and then use up sick and personal time – and then I see the learners get off a whole month for Pesach, almost a month for Succos, a whole month in the summer… seems a bit leisurely. I just don’t see the B’Zayas Apecha..
Maybe it’s just sour grapes. I’m venting.
Legal or not the question should be is it morally acceptable. I work full time as does my husband who also has to save up his sick and personal days for the many yom tovim. We both pay taxes along with everything else we pay for, and it is just disheartening when so many other people have it so easy without really trying. My friends whose husbands are in kollel are fully supported by their parents, yet they are on Medicaid , WIC etc. I pay a very high price for my health care bH I have healthcare, but many friends living in nicer apartments than I are on Medicaid and have no co-pays etc. I just think everyone needs to do the right thing. If you want to learn on kollel then do it but don’t expect the government to provide your entire livlihood and means of living.
Don’t be jealous. Be very happy Kollel Yungerleit and their families can lead easy lives while upholding the world and us with their learning Torah.
I beleive this is a Shaila for the Gedolim to Pasken and it seems to me that the Gedolim seem to endorse and encourage the current Kollel system. (The system was started by R’ Aharon Kotler who was certainly a Gadol big enough to Pasken such a Shaila).
eliezer- You are entitled to vent. But dont think that a kolel couple with 4 kids is living larger than you are. While they may have most or all of their rent paid by section 8, and be on welfare, foodstamps etc.. that does not pay for tuition, clothing, car, summer camp, or vacation. regardless of how much time “off” they have, they are not exactly vacationing.
Although the tone of the original thread is most certainly out of line and demeans those that are holding up Klal Yisroel worldwide, the larger question is – Is this what Hashem really wants?
That certainly is the real concern, and some of your concerns are valid.
When I have a question and want to know what Hashem wants, and I think I am not qualified to answer the question, I ask people who know more torah than do I.
And I’m assuming that is what the people in question are doing.
My brother in law is in kollel in Passaic where you can not be on any government funded assistance. He is supported by his parents and wife. Good for him though. This is America the government should not have to support countless people who are bH able bodies and able to work. Don’t get me wrong we need people spending the day learning but that is not the gov problem.
Assumptions make a donkey out of you and umption.
Love it!!
What about the fact that our tax dollars go to pay for public education, something which I cannot take advantage of.
What about the fact that our tax dollars go to pay for public education, something which I cannot take advantage of.
Not exactly true in many cases
tax Dollars pay for some Special Ed in Yeshivas, they pay for Books in yeshivas, they pay for Computers in Yeshivas, they pay for busing to Yeshivas. Sometimes they even pay for pools or Gyms in Yeshivas
There is more as well
I agree with that too it stinks that we can’t partake in the public school system but it’s the way America is run.
Great point Nechama. Tax dollars go to all sorts of things, good and bad, helpful and wasteful.
Government money towards Kollel families is one of the best, wisest, and most helpful of all government dollars spent.
oznayim Lekosel
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