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I was considering not commenting about this topic at all, partly because it’s so obvious it doesn’t need to be said, and partly because I know that most, if not all, Gedolei Torah will not take too kindly to what I will say. Nevertheless I will speak, without paying attention to anyone else, past or present.
R. Tzadok said “Do not make the Torah a spade to dig with,” meaning don’t use it as a tool for livelihood. He goes on and explains that anyone who abuses K’vod Hatorah in this world, has cut himself off from life in the next.
Never do we find that Chazal collected from people or raised donations for the Yeshivos or for the Gedolim or for the Dayonim or for the Marbitzei Torah or for any position of Torah leadership or for anyone else. Instead we find חכמים who lived in extreme poverty but still didn’t beg for donations, although they most certainly would’ve been amply provided for had they chosen to do so. Instead they engaged in some form of work in order to make a living, be it a poor living or a comfortable one. They didn’t ask for handouts because they knew the Torah forbids it. They understood that to do so would be a Chilul Hashem in the eyes of the masses, who would think that the Torah is just another job from which to make a livelihood
But people blind themselves from and ignore the above Mishna, choosing instead to hang their hat on other Ma’amorei Chazal that they don’t understand, giving certain people and certain communities extra rights, fooling and tricking people into thinking that it is obligatory and necessary to assist Talmidei Chachom, Talmidim, and full-time learners. All of this is a טעות which has no basis in the Torah or out of it.
If you are quoting a Rambam, why don’t you say so?
Hi. I would respond that we are living in an era of unprecedented prosperity. In the past poverty and famine, insufficient food and shelter, were mankind’s primary problems. Now in the first world, neither is a meaningful problem (in the absence of drug addiction and mental illness). Obesity is America’s greatest social problem probably which would have been inconceivable to our grandparents. 2000 years ago when the world could not produce enough calories to keep soul attached to body it would have been difficult to support Torah study as we can today. The prosperity in the world is unimaginable 40 years ago much less 2000 years ago. The idea that a successful businessman can support Torah is I think the purpose G-d sent him such prosperity. I would say the prosperity we see in the world today obligates the financially successful to support Torah. And I bet few Kollel families are driving BMW and Mercedes and going out to eat. They are still I bet mosir nefesh for Torah. And the businessman gets to share the Torah of the Kollel man.
Blah blah blah.
You are a bit late to the party if youre trying to base your position on a mishnah.
Try learning a little more than a mishnah and you might learn something.“But people blind themselves from and ignore the above Mishna, choosing instead to hang their hat on other Ma’amorei Chazal that they don’t understand … All of this is a טעות which has no basis in the Torah or out of it.”
So everyone from Rav Aharon Kotler through all of today’s Roshei Yeshiva and Roshei Kollel across the globe somehow missed that the entire system to which they’ve devoted their lives has no basis? ALL of them simply ignore a Mishna, and erroneously “hang their hats on Ma’amorei Chazal that they don’t understand?”
Tough sell, to say the least.
The Rambam famously takes the approach you support, but Rov Minyan and Rov Binyan of Gedolei Yisrael for hundreds of years have clearly not paskened like the Rambam.
It’s fine for you to prefer the Rambam’s shita, but there’s obviously more to the sugya than just your opinion based on a Mishna.
If what you really mean is to undermine their credibility, their objectivity, or their sincerity, well, that’s very dangerous territory.
I was considering not commenting on what you said partly because it’s so obvious it doesn’t need to be said, and partly because I doubt my words will make an impression. Nevertheless I will speak hoping that maybe you are mature enough to consider the words of others.
I commend you on using your brain and thinking for yourself. Following the crowd without thought is a plague that affects many people. However, I’m pretty sure that if, by your own admission, the Gedolim wouldn’t like what you have to say (meaning they disagree with you), then you basically said it all yourself.
You have every right to ask a question looking for an answer, but to have the brazenness to disagree with such confidence that you must know better based off of one Mishna you learned, just screams that you should re-evaluate how you look at the leaders of Klal Yisroel. Are they just regular people like you and me playing politics, or are they wise scholars who truly understand the will of Hashem based on years of study and spiritual growth. I’m not saying turn off your brain. I’m saying have the recognition that there are people more educated and wiser than you that probably have a real answer to your question. Do you write off a Tosafos as silly because you think there’s an obvious flaw in his logic? I certainly hope not.
I could argue about math with a Mathematician who has spent years researching the topic, but I would just look like a fool doing so.
I would suggest that if you actually care about getting an answer, you should take the minimal effort necessary to ask one of the Gedolim or a real Talmid Chochom, Gadol or not, what is the justification for Kollel learning in light of the Mishna that you use to attack the lifestyle of people dedicated to doing the will of Hashem. If you truly can’t find one, please let me know. I can put you in touch with a few very easily. Unfortunately, I suspect that you’re not interested in an answer based on the tone of your writing. I hope I am wrong.
So you know better than all the Gedolim?
Obviously if you think so (which is outright kefira), than you’ll find “no basis in the Torah or out of it.”, as the Torah that was given on Mount Sinai is obviously not the same one that you follow….
Sorry but not sorry to be so strong but facts are facts.
I am not someone that sits and learns “all day”, nor am I in a kollel framework, but to say what you write here is way past any boundary. Kefira full stop.This was discussed before, but I think posters here misunderstand the OP – he is not talking about a particular mishna or a Rambam that others disagree with. I think he is talking about overall sense coming from Gemora about desirable lifestyle, it is multiple multiple examples and stories, not just narrow halachik decisions. Yes, over centuries there is a list of decisions allowing asking community for funds for various services – as a way to deal with the situation. Probably, someone justifies even taking non-Jewish welfare funds too, maybe not publicly. But currently so many ignore all those gemoras and don’t even try to minimize the undesired behaviors. Why, then, bother learning gemora at all if you are not interested in their approach to life, just read the aharonim. Not all, of course – only those who support your lifestyle.
@catch-yourself,
Actually, they do pasken like the Rambam, however they interpret the Rambam differently than what the Smak describes as “Da’as Ba’al Habatim Hepech Da’as Torah”.
They are Gedolim, and specifically BECAUSE they learn all day, and know and have a right to give their de’ah, they interpret the Rambam differently than a ba’al habayit would.
Your point stands, what I want to understand how YWN allows such a thing on their site, it is the diametric opposite to the very core foundations of the Yeshiva World.I don’t think anyone’s chapped yet – the OP is a direct quote from Peirush Hamishnayos of the Rambam to Avos 4:5. So all those who are commenting about the writer’s style – be careful! It’s the Rambam’s style you’re talking about! And those who say the OP is kefirah full stop – better take it back quickly! And the reference about, ‘hanging their hats on maamorei Chazal they don’t understand,’ is the Rambam’s attack on Geonim and Rishonim, not an attack by the OP on Rav Aharon Kotler.
@Gedol Hador,
You’ll notice that I wasn’t referring to the Rambam itself i was referring to the attitude in which the OP was disregarding all the Gedolim that hold otherwise to the OP.
For them to do that is open kefira, as intrinsic to the Emuna is believing in our Chachamim (btw this is from the Rambam himself so the OP shouldn’t pick and choose Rambams).Besides, you’ll see as well from my previous message that I myself work and am not in “full time” learning.
That doesn’t change anything though….Gedol, why are you ruining the party? People were just warming up! As I conjectured in another thread, Rambam would not be allowed into some of the modern yeshivos, so he would have to stick to medical schools and astronomy.
pure somethingkeit> I wasn’t referring to the Rambam itself i was referring to the attitude
could you explain what lines in OP are not from Rambam so that we can review?
>>>Never do we find that Chazal collected from people or raised donations for the Yeshivos or for the Gedolim or for the Dayonim or for the Marbitzei Torah or for any position of Torah leadership or for anyone else.
Firstly I don’t think this statement is true. Who do you think was supporting the educational system set in place by Yehoshua ben Gamla? Certainly not the parents. It was made because those who had no father to teach them Torah weren’t learning anything.
Yissocher and Zevulan predate even that.
But we will put that aside and ask the oppisite. From the community that claims to oppose supporting Lomdey Torah and claims to believe that Talmidey Chachomim should have their own source of income, why has that community been such an abject failure when it come to living up to it’s own ideals? Where are the respected Talmidey Chachomim in that community who are self supporting TODAY? Why do laymen of that very community with all their talk about the value for being self supporting and not taking from others also contact elder planning lawyers to make sure it isn’t their assets that are drained if they end up in nursing homes?
Are there ANY members of that community who actually follow the Rambam of working only three hours a day and learning the rest? How about even even the oppisite? LEARNING three hours a day and working the rest? I do agree that if someone could make a living in three hours a day and learn the rest it would be better than learning and being supported or taking government assistance for most people. But as the early Achronim point out on the Rambam , in real life almost no one actually does or has the realistic theoretical ability to do so?
> Who do you think was supporting the educational system set in place by Yehoshua ben Gamla?
Community funds supported teachers for little children with prescribed maximums of students per teacher. These teachers were, ideally, not doing anything except caring for the children. There is one example in Bava Basra of a teacher who went to look at his garden after 13 years and was still thinking of students. Another in Bava Mtz, I think, of a teacher who skipped teaching another rav’s kids because he had a fantastic crop of fruits – and is reprimanded for that. More importantly, this discussion in Bava Basra depicts several methods that were tried. Clearly, the preference was for the method that worked, not for some preconceived idea. And it took seemingly a number of generations to figure it out. So, we should also be open to experimentation.
> Yissocher and Zevulan predate even that.
I am not sure what is historical here, but it is a volunteer contract between two people. Not a request for charity (difference explain in SA and by R Moshe). Often, between relatives or brothers. Vayikra Rabbah 25:2. Hillel was not supported by his brother Shavna … Mechaber seems to be explaining in a teshuva that this is allowed in extreme poverty.It seems that some version of Midrash and Rambam understand Y/Z as the earner (active partner) using assets of the learner (passive partner) in his business, not just working on his behalf.
I agree that we lack people who work half day and learn half day. I do know, though, a number of full-time employed engineers and professors who are clearly T’Ch. I did not have a chance to ask them how many hours a day they learn. Some of them may not know everything that a F/T learner of the same intellect does, but, at the same time, they know some things that the F/T learners do not.
There is also something that works in both directions: a T’Ch when he engages in business is able to earn quick and easy money and go back to learning. Similar,y someone who has good professional skills, can understand a sugya much faster. I agree that we do not have enough people in the “golden middle” that Rambam seems to suggest – as in other middos. Maybe someone got to be like Rambam to reach that.
a better question would be – what are we doing to support T’Ch the proper way – by giving them a priority in business and partnering with them in business. I used to buy esrogim from talmidei chachamim, some were old, others were young, but this practice seems to end in our locality. Any financial advisors that would take T’Ch’ money with no fee? Any real estate agents that will rent out their apartments?
I had a question on Rambam that, turns out, others had to – was not Rambam supported by his brother David? So, a close reading of a letter from Rambam describing his feelings after his brother disappeared in Indian ocean shows that:
1) David was trading on the property that partly belonged to Rambam
2) David himself was Rabmab’s sharp student in TorahSo, their arrangement was a joint venture between two T’Ch, not a Z/Y.
What an outright Chutzpah to suggest that you know more than the Gedolim who have devoted all of their time to studying the words the Torah and Chazal in order to understand what Hashem wants from us and then do it.\
You should seriously work on your Kavod Hatorah! Which starts by respecting its Learners!
Baki, if you are addressing someone in particular with this generic statement, maybe you should refer to that statement. I am sure you are pointing at a line on your screen, but we do not see that.
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