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How do we define kol kevuda bas melech penima?
maybe you could translate it for those of us who dont know what your talking about.
That part of the posuk is up for discussion among the women in my family , but boy, have I had the 2nd part explained to me in detail!
‘the beauty of a princess is within’ (Artscroll’s translation)
The Rambam follows the Gemara in Kesubos,that a woman should not leave her home for more then once a month,quoting that phrase from Tehillim.
Rabbi Yossi Chazan says that due to sociological changes this does not occur now in Halacha.
However the principle remains the same, a wife is only meant attract her husband, not other men, her ‘beauty’ is ‘within’, i.e. within the house-for the husband.
People usually refer it to women that they should be tzinus – not just clothing wise.
“maybe you could translate it”
(from Google) All glorious is the king’s daughter within the palace.
Which is usually translated as “The honor of the princess (Hashem’s daughter / Bas Yisroel)is in the fact that she remains discrete. (its used most often in reference to tznius).
I’d explain my post, but that would kill the joke. Wait till more replies come thru, and it should become more clear.
Bass King Cole Koooda insider
From: Google Translate
It means that women are not allowed to drive cars or sit in the front section of the bus.
See what I mean, Goq? The replies (the funny ones and the serious ones) will tell you all you need to know.
Bass King Cole.. Funny!
so are you saying Rosa Parks was not tzniusdik?
My thoughts; Are you sure that that’s what it means? I have my doubts???
One could try to explain it as simply another way of saying ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?’ ??? ????? – that is, ????? is more figurative and not referring to a physical place.
But as MichaelC pointed out, the Gemara seems to understand it differently.
Does the Mechaber pasken like the Rambam that follows the Gemara in Kesubos? If so, what changed?
the heavy voice of the daughter of a sailor is inside her.
OR
the heavy voice of the daughter of salt is inside her.
The most important component in achieving this ideal has to come from the man in supplying all the needs that the Bas Melech does not need to venture forth.
This concept was seen by the family of the Kohain Gadol, who was required to be wealthy.
To impose this on a woman who does not have such a husband or the prospect of having such a husband can be cruel.
The reality is that presently the supply of men able to fully support their families is limited.
Josh, surely you are not suggesting that only a wealthy wife and daughters can be kol kevuda bas melech penima?
The ideal of not having to venture forth out to work or shop for bargains does require a fully supporting husband / family.
The wife of the Kohain Gadol will not be running from Walmart to Costco for the latest bargain.
For those in lesser circumstances getting a Shabbos / tznius friendly job will be the goal.
I heard a psak than a woman shouldn’t work in a male only (i.e. just the boss) office.
Never a good idea for a man and woman to work together alone. (Aside from the yichud issues.)
Women can sing loudly inside. or to themselves.
gigglegirl: cute!
I have been the Executive Assistant for two men, one Jewish one non-Yehudi. Trust me, there was nothing going on with these two individuals and myself. I not only enjoyed working for them, I respected them even more because they did NOT hit on me. Unfortunately, due to the economy, (1990 and 2010)I lost both jobs.
In theory and idealisiclly, Kol Kevuda Bas Melech Penima is a beutiful concept. But the reality is that most (Jewish) women today must work outside the home and be seen by the general public. Between the cost of yeshiva and camp tuitions, kosher food and rent/mortgage, heat, electricity, gas, bar/bat mitzvah costs, etc. women don’t have a choice but to work outside the home.
walton, Thank G-d for that. But that isn’t always the case, and we cant let our guard down.
the Rambam says that a women should not leave her house more than once a month.
I have never heard of anyone who keeps this, whether alive or dead.
Someone mentioned earlier that it could be that this would not apply nowadays, for some reason.
I hardly think it’s appropriate to mock/ make light of a passuk from Tanach – whether or not we feel ourselves to be on the level of fully keeping it.
I have never heard of anyone who keeps this, whether alive or dead.”
Well if they are dead, I certainly would not WANT to see them leave their “house.”
Just to throw in my two cents, the targum in tehillim explains it entirely different. “All the coveted belongings of a princess are kept within”. with ‘kvudah’ meaning belongings (in modern Hebrew luggage is called ?????.)
quark: Even if we don’t follow the quantification of the principle mentioned in Rambam, we still follow the premise and principle that women should be in the house as much as possible. It is also so stated in Shulchan Aruch itself.
Quark: I think most of the dead ones are mekayem it! 🙂
person3 – i’m sorry, you’re right. it happens to be this passuk is one of my favorite. i guess i wasn’t thinking.
midwesterner they aren’t in their houses, are they? They again, they don’t leave their houses either. Hmmm.
Anyway what i meant, is that when they were alive they didn’t keep this. But i think that you realized this 🙂
shlishi what is stated in shulchan aruch? What you said, or what the Rambam said?
so are you saying Rosa Parks was not tzniusdik?
If you take into account societies morals and values being a lot lower nowadays, she was probably a lot more tznius than the average woman on the street today (one with good tznius).
shlishi
“quark: Even if we don’t follow the quantification of the principle mentioned in Rambam, we still follow the premise and principle that women should be in the house as much as possible. It is also so stated in Shulchan Aruch itself.”
shlishi if you would provide a mekor for what you are saying (in halacha, not aggada), that would be nice. Because min hasvera, one can certainly argue and say a different pshat in the rambam.
quark2: Shulchan Aruch 73:1. (It says a woman should not go outside much. The beauty of a woman is to stay inside – Kol Kevudah)
shlishi, fine. i don’t think my family’s minhag is to be makpid on this.
what do you mean? are there women nowadays who leave their homes only once a month? Know lot of real ultra ultra orthodox chassidic women but never heard of this one? Avoid attracting men when outside by modest dress and behavior, yes, but not leave house at all?
quark2: How does someone have a “minhag not to be makpid” on a part of Shulchan Aruch?
Women shouldn’t walk long distances. Instead they should drive so they are inside a vehicle.
I still like my translation the best 🙂
Joseph – As HaLevi said in the Daas Torah thread, I don’t need a Rov to tell me Shulchan Aruch, that an Am HaAaretz can do. What you need a Rov for is to interpret and advise/Pasken what you should do.
So yes, after he discusses what to to with his Rov, he can have a Minhag not like the Shulchan Aruch.
Wait, am I understanding this correctly?
From what I understand, the people on this tread are saying that in a utopian society, women would be restricted to leaving the house once a month. That means that when Mashiach comes, that Halacha will be in place.
That’s the halacha in the Rambam. The Shulchan Aruch paskens with this Rambam but when quoting it says she shouldn’t leave the house too much but leaves out the Rambam’s stated quantification of once or twice a month is okay.
Where can we find this psak of the Rambam and where does the shulchan aruch bring this down?
And why the sudden resurrection of threads that are 2,3 even 4 years old?
wow,
6 josephs in one thread
apy: Rambam Hilchos Ishus 13:11 and Shulchan Aruch EH 73:1.
Apushata, the resurrection of threads can be quite enjoyable.
For example, in this old thread from 3 years ago, we find a brilliant comment from oomis.
As the CR’s Best Bubby, her comments are often wise, always caring; however, they rarely make me laugh.
But when they DO make me laugh…
Just great, oomis!
“That means that when Mashiach comes, that Halacha will be in place.”
For this what is needed is a good supply of men able and willing to fully support their families.
That means such that their wives do not need to work or chase bargains at Walmart or Costco to make ends meet.
We can now argue whether Mashiach is needed to prod the men to fully support their families.
Hopefully, all 6 Josephs in this thread will step up to the plate and allow their wives to achieve kol kevuda bas melech penima.
Joseph: I’m going to try and find out the answer to your question on a minhag to not be makpid on something in the Shulchan Aruch. I’ll start by asking a Chassidishe Rebbe about ignoring zman krias shema.
DM: Just ask an mo rabbi about their mixed swimming. It’s closer to your neck of the woods.
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