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Will I have a hard time getting into a place like Columbia if my LSAT score is in the high 170s but I only have a BTL?
Yes, you are not guaranteed to get in. I know of a someone with a 176 who did not get in to any of the top 6 with a BTL.
You should hire a admissions consultant.
I scored in the lower 170s and was not admitted to Columbia. i was told only afterwards that the Dean at Columbia does not like BTL’s and they won’t accept anyone there with a BTL. You will probably have an easier time with NYU. I did get into some top schools (albeit only the lower ranked schools offered scholarships) and one of my friends is in a top 10 with a full scholarship and a BTL.
I wouldn’t recommend hiring an admissions consultant, the whole process is one whole scam where you are going to be charged large fees every step of the way. I would maybe recommend hiring a professional to edit your personal statement. I know of a frum woman who edits graduate school application essays professionally, and I was quite pleased with the job she did on mine.
Congrats on your score, and much Hatzlacha.
No guarantees with Columbia but you can definitely get into Fordham and they’ll probably offer you a nice scholarship to boot. There are tons on frum guys with BTLs at Fordham.
It’s very unfortunate that you have to rely on only a BTL in getting into a school. If you had a degree from Touro, YU, Brooklyn, or Queens, Columbia would be a sure thing and you’d likely be in at Harvard.
However, assuming that you want to stay in New York and the best school that you will get into is Fordham (I know Columbia is reluctant to accept BTLs and NYU does not accept them), you should think twice before enrolling. While it is true that you will likely get a very generous scholarship, it is very improbable that you will get a typical ‘biglaw’ job that pays the standard $160,000/year salary for first-year associates. From what I have heard from friends at Fordham, less than 10% of frum people have gotten that type of job this year. There is no reason to think that you will be the one that beats the odds.
If you are fine with working for a firm that pays $50-80k or a governmental agency paying $40-60k, then law school is a fine choice, but DO NOT go in expecting to earn the big bucks.
A23 has it about right. I ahve a friend of mine that got into Columbia this past year with a BTL, but this is definitely the exception, and it is becoming more and more uncommon.
Word on the street is that Fordham did not accept any BTLs for the Class of 2013. As a rule (though there are definitely major exceptions) BTLs have serious difficulties in the research, writing, and public speaking aspects of the law school curriculum. Be prepared.
Again, I think you should pay for a consultant.
Also, if you are thinking about next year- forget it, you’re too late.
Also, you should really expand your horizon beyond NY.
Think Chicago (x2), Philadelphia, Detroit, D.C. (Besides for Boston and New Haven)
RSRH
I thought BTL’s have somewhat of an advantage in law school because they learn to analyze from Gemara.
dunno,
I think this is largely a myth. There is definitely an advantage in some respects, especially when it comes to analyzing a piece of legislative or constitutional text, or when trying to really pick apart the text of a court decision to support your arguments.
However, the way we learn gemara is in many ways antithetical to how we study and practice law in America. In learning gemara, there is of course a stress on understanding the CORRECT LAW. In law school, we study not so much to understand what the law really is, but more to see how we can use the existing state of the law to support a particular position. The secular-law idea that there isnt really an objectively correct law, but that there is a body of rules, standards, and precedents that we try to analyze and use to our advantage in practice is very foreign to most yeshiva students who have learned God’s law for the sake of simply knowing the right thing to do.
Even to the extent that genera learning helps for general skills needed to study law, american law study and practice is more and more dependent on excellent writing skills – command of the language, preciseness, clarity, ect. Sadly, many BTL guys lack these skills and have a hard time managing both legal writing classes and writing exams.
This isn’t to say there aren’t exceptions – there are, and I have seen them; and I am not speaking based on empirical evidence – just my personal observations. Learning gemara definitely helps develop many of the raw mental qualities that serve a law student well, but often they are just that – raw qualities. Many college students are better prepared in other essential areas (again, I am generalizing). I think both College and BTL students have advantages – each one has different ones, though – and I don’t think it is accurate to say that BTLs have any overall advantage. I think the opposite is true in most cases.
I agree with RSRH. While there are some frum people who do exceptionally well in law school, from my own experience, I know that a lot of frum people (maybe even most) do worse than the average law student.
yitayningwut, I can’t emphasize this enough: you should really think about whether this is something you really need to do in life. Financially, it is not a great move.
RSRH is basically correct. Moreover, no matter how good one might be at Gemara, the lack of oral and written presentation skills will be extremely detrimental in law school, not to mention the legal profession.
Very interesting RSRH and yitayningwut. Thanks for your responses.
As an aside, at least as of when I went there (five years ago), Fordham did not offer academic scholarships to anyone. Financial aid was only need based. Otherwise, I pretty much agree with everything that’s been said above.
Out of curiosity how many of you are speaking from experience (are lawyers or in law school), and how many you are just saying what you expect/heard?
Anyways as someone who is currently in law school and has been through the admissions process, I would first of all like to say that if anything you have a slight advantage because of your analysis skills (and this was told to me by a frum professor), and you should not worry about any lack of writing skills because the style of writing that is taught in undergrad is much, much different from what is required in a legal setting. You need not use fancy words,rather that is discouraged. You’ll be starting off from scratch but so will everyone else. In fact, you may have an advantage in this area as well, because a big part of legal writing is to eliminate unnecessary words, just like Gemara’s “writing style.” Furthermore, in a lot of schools, Legal Writing is a pass/fail course which won’t effect your GPA, (assuming you’ll pass and you will).
Be happy that you didn’t go to a “real” college because a lot of your classmates will be going in with a ton of debt, while you got to learn and still end up in the same place.
I can also assure you that what anyone heard about Fordham not accepting BTLs is not true.
I also don’t know what you are talking about as to what the focus in gemara is. The emphasis isn’t on knowing the exact Halacha, otherwise we would just be learning Mishna Berura.
As for the “biglaw” jobs, do you really want to be working 14 hour days including Sundays? Sure you get a nice paycheck, but I personally don’t think it’s worth it. Furthermore, we all believe in the Ribbono Shel Olam and should realize this is all Hishtadlus, and if Hashem wants you to get such a job, he will make sure you get it, whether you went to Harvard or Touro Law School.
IYH,
gut gezukt!
iyhbyu, I’m sorry, but as a 1L you should most definitely not be giving advice to people regarding life choices, especially not in the preparation for a career as an attorney.
I would first of all like to say that if anything you have a slight advantage because of your analysis skills (and this was told to me by a frum professor), and you should not worry about any lack of writing skills because the style of writing that is taught in undergrad is much, much different from what is required in a legal setting.
Nonsense! Or if you prefer, naarishkeit!
Why this professor told you this, I have no idea. Maybe he wanted to give you encouragement, in which case, all props to him.
Not having good writing skills will show up when the first “blue book” (or the electronic equivalent) is handed in. I can just see it now, “it’s mamish a breach of contract.” Oh my!
Good written and oral communications skills are essential in the legal profession and the notion that “the style of writing that is taught in undergrad is much, much different from what is required in a legal setting” is nothing short of presposterous.
Tell me, how do you know this? Did you take any writing courses in college? How many and what kind?
I won an undergraduate award from my college’s English department based on newswriting. I would say this has served me very well throughout life. Being able to write clear expository paragraphs is a great skill to have. And, by the way, I heard this from dozens of my law professors.
Why not seek out some stars of the legal profession who went to yeshiva and see if they agree with you? How about former US Attorney General and former US District Judge Michael Mukasey, now a BigLaw partner (Ramaz graduate) or Harvard Law professor Alan Dershowitz (BTA graduate) to start? Dershowitz, by the way, likes to mention that he was on the debating team at Brooklyn College.
I am very sorry if any of this embarrasses you; this is not my intention. If YWN allowed, I would send you a private message. I think it is quite important, however, that no one make a mistake in planning his or her future.
–Homeowner, Esq.
Seems a lot of great advice above. If you have the time, how about transfer BTL credits and get a second undergrad from a good school? should be approx 1 year, and that will open many doors.
I would think its a good investment with many years of fruit iyh
Discolsure: I did same before entering a graduate program, and was happy I did.
The same person I referred to before with the BTL who didn’t get into a top 6, is doing really well in his top 14 school. His professors seem to be fine with “mamish no contract”.
It’s not so rosy after law school. I just met a guy who told me his brother -in -law graduated and couldn’t find a job, so he’s getting a masters’ by NYU, I think. Homeowner -how is a master’s going to help and is there a masters’ in legal studies?
Health, depends. Do you by any chance mean a Master of Laws (LLM) degree?
I dunno. Does NYU give such a degree? Also, do you think he has a better chance of finding a job, since he doesn’t want to work for himself?
Many people get an LLM in Tax from a “good” school to beef up their creds after earning a JD from a weaker school.
This second degree is commonly earned from NYU.
Legal market is currently depressed. So are many other areas. Worth evaluating market options. Good name schools does pay, especially during such times…
Professional: Instead of “Good name schools does pay,” you’d be better apt to advise that “schools that pay are better.” No school is a sure thing ITE. Not having to pay for a legal education is the safest route.
Homeowner-
Trust me, I am not embarrassed in the slightest. As for career advice, maybe I am no more qualified than any non-lawyer. But as for the topic of the question, getting into law school, I believe I am just as qualified as anyone, if not more so. The fact that you still refer to a bluebook when those are basically extinct shows that law school may have changed a bit since you have been there.
While taking undergraduate English courses may be a slight advantage, it is most definitely not enough to waste your time and money on it.
As for when exam time comes, it came and went, and B”H, either I shockingly was smart enough not to write “mamash a contract,” or the professor surely appreciated it, because my grades are in very good shape. ( and I’d imagine someone who scored in the upper 170s would as well.)
I have spoken to my classmates who have majored in Literature, Journalism, etc. and they all have said that the style of writing that they were taught was very different from what is expected in a legal writing course.
I also fail to see what Alan Dershowitz and his opinion has anything to do with our topic.
And I lost sight of this numerous times unfortunately, so I am speaking to myself as well, but I just want to stress yet again that this is all HISHTADLUS. Whether we actually get a job is up to Hashem.
As a student in a top-tier law school, I can tell you the following:
you probably will not get in to Columbia or NYU. NYU actually has more stringent application standards than any other school in New York. As far as Fordham is concerned, you also will have a very hard time with a BTL. Fordham no longer favors BTL’s after conducting a study in which they found that the people that possessed a BTL finished in the bottom half most of the time. Also, if you do not take a writing course, or at least know how to write, going to Law School is a moot point. It is not about dissecting “Sugya’s.” It is more about putting your ideas in an effective matter on paper and analyzing them in a clear and concise manner.
I don’t think you need to worry about the writing part.
you have to know how to write for everything! everything involves reaction papers, term papers and that is the majority of teh grade.
Also,
It is commonly held that NYU (almost?) never takes BTL’s.
If you have high 170s, you will definitely get into Fordham with money, but you will be selling yourself short by doing so.
Really, don’t let these guys scare you about the writing. I know plenty of yeshiva guys with no college who went to law school. I never heard one complaining about lacking writing skills.
If Fordham did a study that most BTL’s are in the bottom half of the class, I would want to know what the numbers were. The bottom half of the class is 50% of the class. If 60% of BTL’s were in the bottom half, that is not so shocking as to make it a very big deal.
you have to know how to write for everything! everything involves reaction papers, term papers and that is the majority of teh grade.
Why would you say that?
Most law school classes are graded solely on a single final exam with no papers.
I assume Fordham did their due diligence upon conducting this study. They do not merely make these numbers up for fun. Please do not be ridiculous.
Of course. But the numbers only say as much as they say.
So, what do they say? What percentage falls into what percentage?
“Good written and oral communications skills are essential in the legal profession”. OK popa you are right about the final mark being the final test but you NEED good writing skills for everything up till that test. you dont need to be a crazy great writer but it is common knowledge that you need writing skills. and if youre going to law school, oral skills is an obvious need. what exactly do you think a lawyer does??
I don’t know what lawyers do, but I imagine over 3 years you could pick something up.
Again, have you ever heard someone bemoan not having gotten a real degree so that he would have had better writing skills going in to law school?
Wow, I see we have a lot of lawyers or lawyer wannabes on YWN. Besides me, a wannabe med prof., and Dr.(Mod) 80, how come there aren’t more med prof on this site. There used to be an eye doc here. What was his name -Feivel?
i have heard plenty of people complain that they did not gain sufficient writing skills in high school or earlier because it affected their writings in college. so i guess, popa, my answer is yes.
obvious:
I am asking about Law school in particular.
iyhbyu, Look son, we have this thing called an alumni association where graduates gather and wisdom and experience is passed down. Some of the people I mentor are even current students. None, I am pleased to say, is as chutzpahdik as you.
Obviously I know that most exams are done on laptops these days. That’s why I said “blue book” (or the electronic equivalent).” I am well aware that many of you “millenials” have lost the ability to use pen and paper which is why some of us were howling with laughter a couple of years ago when the Board of Law Examiners lost the electronic answers to the essay portion of the bar exam. Indeed some answers have never been found. Tell me, what do you do when a judge asks you to draft an order on a lined form and hand it up? Oh, wait, you’ve never represented anyone. Yet you’re so wise.
The reason Prof. Dershowitz’s opinion is valid is because he is a) a professor at Harvard Law School; b) from a frum background (BTA, Young Israel of Borough Park); and c)went to college. Those are the same reasons I cited Mukasey (Ramaz, Kehilath Jeshurin).
I repeat that your statements:
I would first of all like to say that if anything you have a slight advantage because of your analysis skills (and this was told to me by a frum professor), and you should not worry about any lack of writing skills because the style of writing that is taught in undergrad is much, much different from what is required in a legal setting.
are utter and complete nonsense. I say this from the background of being a practicing attorney.
I am very happy you did well your first term. You have five more left. Don’t take anything for granted.
Health, An LLM is very helpful in the practice of tax law but in other fields is generally is not necessary for anyone other than law professors and is even optional for them. Contrary to some of the tipshus posted here, an LLM does not rehabilitate a JD from a low-ranked law school. You can find numerous columns stating this by Ann Israel who writes the job hunting advice column in the New York Law Journal.
Popa, so far the best thing you have said here is “I don’t know what lawyers do.” On that, you are absolutely correct. And that’s the only thing.
Obviously a top law student needs a rudimentary understanding of the English language. But that the OP scored in the upper 170s on the LSAT and that he wants to go to law school, points towards him having such an understanding
Popa- While it is true that most law school grades (not Legal Writing) consist of just one final exam, that exam is in essay form and not multiple choice. However it depends on the professor if they care about style at all.
And I haven’t heard of anyone complain about a lack of previous education. The Ivy’s in my class are not doing better than anyone else.
I can’t tell you if Fordham “favors” BTL’s, just that the blanket statement that they take no BTLs isn’t true.
Homeowner-
Yikes, I never meant for this to get personal. I’m sure you are aware that blue books are rarely used, but that you referred to it at all led me to believe that you were not in touch with what law school is like nowadays. I guess I was wrong. I’m not going to answer for my generation’s aversion to pen and paper because I didn’t exactly create this culture, and also I believe that the courtroom will adapt to computers and ipads etc.
As for Dershowitz, I’m assuming he wasn’t too into learning a sugya b’iyun and for some reason I doubt he will endorse a yeshiva education.
I believe what I said was poorly phrased. I don’t mean that you shouldn’t worry about a lack of writing skills in the future, rather you shouldn’t worry about a lack of previous formal education in undergrad.
I believe you are taking my advice as a slight on you undergraduate education. I mean no such thing. Was there even yeshivas offering BTLs when you went to law school? It is quite possible that it was absolutely necessary for you.
And you’re right, I don’t know everything,and I could be wrong. But this is simply L’aniyas daati my advice, that for the OP to go to an undergraduate school would be a waste of time and money nowadays.
Hatzlacha
As a recent Fordham graduate I believe I have my two sense to add. Both homeowner and iyhbyu have made valid points. First off, it is definitely true that undergraduate writing is very very different than law writing, and for homeowner to suggest otherwise is either dishonest or things have really changed since his days in law school. That being said, there are many yeshiva guys that lack even the basic high school writing skills. They don’t know any english, have no idea where to put a comma, etc. It is those yeshiva guys that are in for a big surprise when they get to law school. A yeshiva guy who had a decent secular education in high school, and learned how to write properly, will not be too far behind an english major. In fact, many of my more intelligent classmates expressed frustration at the “dumbing down” of legal writing from the writing they were used to. Another issue is that some people just dont have the knack for expressing their ideas in writing, and a yeshiva guy who never went to college will have no idea if he falls into that category. ihybyu- I don’t know how you could be so confident after one semester, at this point, you probably have gotten one, maybe two papers graded, you’ve got a lot ahead of you.
In Fordham, the writing course is not pass/fail, and I don’t know of any school that does it that way. However, it is only a 2 credit course. That being said, prospective employers care more about your grade in legal writing than any other course. Someone in the top 3rd, who got a B in legal writing, will be at a tremendous disadvantage.
Fordham took a lot of BTLs for the class of 2013. I would say around 10-15. However, almost all of them had trouble getting in. As far as the study that was done, they determined that yeshiva guys almost always finish in the bottom 5 percent OR THE TOP 5 PERCENT. If you don’t believe me call Dean Brown, the dean of admission. I heard this directly from him.
IMO, the reason many yeshiva guys don’t do well is because everyone works hard in law school. The only exception, in my experience, is some yeshiva guys. This is due to a variety of reasons including that many have wives, families, or their lack of discipline in their yeshiva years. If you have any questions that I could help with, feel free to ask.
homeowner- Relax, it’s the yw coffee room, don’t take everything so personally.
newhere -Do you have a job? Did you have an easy time getting it? What is the general salary for newbie lawyers? Also, that guy I know -what’s your opinion on getting a masters from NYU- will it help employment? I shouldn’t be asking these questions, but I’m just curious how your field compares to mine (in medicine).
What are the top 6 law schools? Top 10?
Never heard of the Top 6 being used a a criteria.
Top 10: Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, University of Chicago, NYU, Berkley, Penn, Michigan, Virginia.
Top 14: Add on Duke, Northwestern, Cornell, and Georgetown.
health- I’d rather not discuss my personal situation. The goal used to be to get into the top third of the class. This way you’d get a summer internship in your 2nd year, which pays around $25,000, and then they would hire you after you graduate. A starting salary for such a job is around $160,000. Now, it is not enough to get in the top third. There really is no magic number anymore. Only a select few have gotten the 160k jobs and of those even less have 2L summer internships. Most graduates are looking for any job, some may work for the DA and make approx. 55k. Some get jobs at small firms. Many have no jobs. I would advise anyone looking into going to law school to do as much research into post law school life as they do into their law school.
Newhere-
I agree with everything you said. Also, I would echo your call for anyone looking into law school to really research it and think hard before they go, with the cost of tuition nowadays.
and I’m really not that confident. I know I’ve got a long way to go. B”H I got all my first semester grades and I did well. Hopefully I will continue to do well. But I was just pointing out that I did take exams and I wasn’t fumbling with “this is mamesh a contract,” and it’s possible for one to do well without going to Columbia for undergrad and majoring in Literature.
One more point.
Fordham has a different experience with BTLs than other law schools because it is the next best school in NY after the two really good schools.
Since yeshiva guys often want to stay in NY, they benefit from getting BTL guys who barely were not accepted into CLS who would have otherwise gone to PBMV if not for needing to stay in NY.
yitayningwut: Congratulations on your score. I wouldn’t rule out getting accepted to Columbia, but it is by no means a given. Rumor has it that they are accepting fewer BTLs these days, but no one knows if this is really the case. There is not enough statistical evidence proving one way or the other. If you are serious about going I strongly advise that you find someone who has a connection to Prof. Stone and have that someone put in a good word for you with Prof. Stone.
As for job prospects, the frum Columbia guys from the Class of ’10 did not fare very well. Only 2 out of the 6 received offers from big law firms. A few of them are now in the NYU Tax LL.M. program hoping to get a second chance at Big Law.
Do not go to a top law school expecting to get a job in Big Law. The rules have changed since the economy crashed.
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