Klerr about Kavua

I think it means that if you were there youi can easily ascertain it, and yidden and goyim is an excellent example, as are meat stores. However kvarim (underground and out of sight) or if this was used as a nachal eisan etc. cannot be ascertained by a site visit. So thats why they are not kavua. So no, no need for it to be speaking of women

I believe R Chaim al hashas (stencilach) deals with this. Don’t remember exactly but he talks about the case of shabbos of mifakchin. im suyou can find it in the mafteach there.

yitay: 1) I don’t think that is what he means. I understood his intent that there is something intrinsically and spiritually different about Jews that makes them stand out to those perceptive enough to these things.

2&3) sorry, I didn’t read your question carefully enough to realize you only wanted to answer Tosafos l’Shitaso.

4) it IS Nogea but I was too brief. They continue that people and Karka which are intrinsically not Batel, are Kavua even when not Nikar.

Because the ???? is not ???? between different types of Jews or non-Jews; the ???? talks about yidden and ovdei kochavim. The ???? (or at least the ???????) would have to tell us that if for one reason or another (either ?????? or even ????? e.g. brothers died from ???? – there is no ???? ????, or if the ???”? is for some reason circumised, this ??? doesn’t apply! It is ???? enough for the ???? to say something.

???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? <????? ??????> {??????} ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? <????? ??????> {??????} ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? <????? ??????> {?????} ???’ (?????? ?) ?? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? (????? ? ??) ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? (????? ? ?) ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ???? ??????

Nedarim 31B

gavra_at_work – I’m not sure what you are trying to bring with this. If you are finding me a ???? that the ???? is ???? between ???? of a ??? and a ?????, I think you may have misunderstood me.

The OP decided that there needs to be a physically recognizeable difference between the things we are discussing [no comment; I haven’t learnt the ?????]. He says also that ???? is the only physical difference between a yid and a goy.

All I was saying is that physically, that is no difference, because there are plenty of cases where you will have the ???? where all both the yidden and the goyim may or may not have had ????. We could even be talking before 8 days. There is no end to exceptions. Therefore if the OPs diyukim in ??? are correct, he will not be able to answer his question from ????.

yekke2: There are examples where the Gemorah talks about non-jews that have a Bris Milah, this is one of them.

If I were cheeky, I would say Pashut (Al Pi Rav Chaim (which probably isn’t true anyway)) that one could tell by the extra tooth that Yidden have and non-Jews don’t. Even if the teeth fall out, the root holes are still there. 🙂

How can you say that you can tell which meat store it is? We apply Kal Kavua by Teisha Chanuyos. If you can tell which one it is then there is no Shayla about which one you are in, if you can’t tell then according to your reading in Tosafos you go after Rov stores anyhow.

I’m not saying what sam2 said, that people are never Battul just because they are people. The main point is that when it turns into an Iruv then we say Chad Bitrei. It’s pretty self evident that we don’t think of people in a crowd to be just a particle of a mix (even though we often do use such terms), while in terms of the human race it is a unit in which its members are individually indiscernible.

Truthfully, is there no difference in your eyes between a man in a crowd and man in the world, or are you just searching for a good Lomdishe term that can define it?

This is a mistake. The classic case of kol kavua is where you have a piece of meat in your hand and are not sure which store you bought it from; not that you do not know which store is kosher.

You are right; it was a mistake. Now, having looked over that Tosafos and looking up Tosafos in Zvachim I see that he definitely says that the Issur and the Heter should be discernible. That is what makes the Issur Kavua.

As to your original question, I think the point is simply that if you had been close up you would know who is the Jew, in whatever way — perhaps by asking him or by his clothing, or by knowing him.

A good way to understand what Kavua is, is to compare it to Asham, were we are Mechalek between two pieces of meat, on of which is Cheilev, and one piece of meat that is a Safek if it is Cheilev. We use the term Ischazek Issura. The point is that were there are two pieces, the Issur is a reality, but when there is one piece the Issur is a Tzad in your Safek.

The same can be applied to Teisha Chanuyos. If you find a piece of meat it has nine Tzidadim of Kashrus and one Tzad of Tarfus. If your Shayla is on the stores, they are ISchazek — the Issur store is a reality sitting right there.

So, Tosafos is saying that when there is one big mix, of animals, people, or rings, the Issur — being merely a Tzad — is Battul. On the other hand, when the Issur is “right there” it is Is’chazek, or in our terms, Kavua.

I didn’t mean your Chiluk of Be’etzem or external. I drew a parallel to the concept of Ischazek Issura. You are pointing out that they are not altogether the same, since by two pieces of meat you have Ischazek Issura and they are still Battul.

The main difference is that if you would be up close you would instantly know which is Muttar and which is Assur.

It seems like you were assuming in Tosafos that you have to be able to see the factor that makes it Assur or Muttar, which led you to wonder if that means Bris. What I’m saying is that in whatever way it might be, you would recognize the Jew from the others if you would be up close. That gives the Issur a steady existence and it is not swallowed up in the mix.

If I recall correctly, Reb Shimon Shkopp explains Parish and Kavua in a similar vein.

If you were in the crowd you would know which is the Yid.

It’s pretty clear from Tosafos and the Sugya in general that the only reason you don’t know is because you didn’t see.

It can be beard, Peyos, clothing, shoe straps, simple recognition, or perhaps even a five minute conversation. This is the issue, that had you been there close up you would know who is whom.

In the case of Keddushin the Krovim aren’t aware, and more importantly, there is no place to go to see the Issur and the Hetter.

And I don’t think we are talking here about a Safek Yehudi. That is a whole different Shaala. The issue is that you know who is who, it’s just that you don’t know which one you hit.

In the case of the Mekudeshes the problem is actually the Krovim, since the Mekudeshes will tell you that she is MEkudeshes. As Tosafos says, otherwise nobody would be able to marry anyone since she might be an Eishes Ish. The Kerovim aren’t aware, so asking wouldn’t help.

Besides, it is easily discernible who is the Yid, even if it would take asking him who his uncle is. The Mekudeshes is out there and can’t be found; she is mixed into the world.

(What would you say about a group of non-Jewish Nimolim dressed as Yidden, and all it would take is saying, “Good Yom Tov. Du Hast Vu Tzu Esen”, to find out who is and who isn’t, wouldn’t you say that’s Kavua?)