Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › kiruv krovim and the cause of social stigma
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September 6, 2011 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #599217bombmaniacParticipant
Earlier this week I was discussing an article I had written concerning internet addiction with my friend, and the conversation took an interesting turn. As we were discussing the problem we started delving deeper and deeper into the core of the issue, and we reached an interesting conclusion. In my article I had said that the reason why internet bans are so unsuccessful is because they fail to address the reasons behind internet addiction. My article was merely an observation; the interesting part happened when we started looking for a solution. How to solve the problem of internet addiction. Many have tried, always using cookie cutter, one-size-fits-all solutions which attempt to move people away from the internet, while overlooking the reasons behind internet addiction. My friend and I came to an eye opening and terrifying conclusion.
In that article I mentioned that people tend to become addicted to the internet for specific reasons; the internet fills a very specific void in their lives. Be it problems with parents, marriages, self-identity, mental illness etc. I said that in order to marginalize the internet, those core problems would have to be dealt with. Which begs the question: why have they not yet been dealt with? Why are they so prevalent yet unaddressed? How have so many issues been allowed to slip through the cracks? More to the point, why are so many people unaware that these problems even exist?
Every one of us has been lecture by our parents and rebbeim about peer pressure and the damage it can cause, and every one of us nods our head and agrees. What is social stigma if not peer pressure to the millionth power? But social stigma is just another symptom, a layer upon a million other layers concealing the core of the issue. Do you know where these issues are freely and openly discussed? Not at the countless symposia held by the various outreach and charity organizations. Not in shuls. Not at the dinner table. The only place that I have ever heard mental illness, anorexia, self-identity, religious identity, bad marriages and living arrangements and the like discussed is at a kiruv yeshiva I used to attend. It was an eye opening experience. I started going there because it suited my busy schedule, but it opened my mind to both the problems which yiddishkeit truly faces and the true power of the human spirit to rise above it all.
Back on point. So why do these social stigmas exist?
Why is it that everyone and their uncle is opening up kiruv organizations, however there are so few organizations to help people in abusive situations, mental illness and the like? Why is it that no one ever wants to answer emuna and hashkafa questions in frum high schools, but once a kid goes off the derech those same people bend over backwards to answer any and every question that a kid may have?
September 6, 2011 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #807010mytakeMemberRegarding the Kiruv Krovim issue:
I do not think that this stems from “our need to be seen as the epitome of perfection”. I think that the frum community is uncomfortable and unaccustomed to dealing with these issues. I think they don’t know how to. I think there aren’t enough people stepping up to educate the parents and fight to implement Yiddishkeit 101 studies into the school system.
Ever wonder how come Kiruv is so successful these days? Ever think about what might happen if yiddishkeit is presented to the FFB’s similar to how it’s taught in Kiruv Seminaries/yeshivos?
They teach you the why’s not just the how’s about yiddishkeit. They teach you the ABC’s of hashkafa; instead of expecting you to magically know it at birth. They focus on developing a meaningful, PERSONAL connection with Hashem and His Mitzvos. They encourage you to ask and understand and wonder.
And nobody wants to go there.
September 6, 2011 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #807011ToiParticipanti stopped reading yor post in middle it was too long. but i hear the issue. when i was 21 i debated my mashgiach as to whether Hashem created the world. not that i doubted it; rather, that arguments being raised for were uncompelling. i did so because i wanted to but i did have to quiet a voice inside me saying not to cuz he might kick me out.
September 6, 2011 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #807012Raphael KaufmanMemberOkay, here is a hashkafa question.
Does one who is orthoprax (I believe that’s the word used to describe the folks you are talking about)receive any sachar for the mitzvos that he is performing, albeit by rote and not by conviction?
September 7, 2011 3:32 am at 3:32 am #807013EzratHashemMemberBomb. OK, not only Kiruv but a voice representing the masses. Maybe you can develop a program and take it to schools, similar to Chazon.
Truthfully, your post went through me like an arrow, having watched a teen who asked questions not only be unanswered, but scorned and rejected until he finally left.
September 7, 2011 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #807014bombmaniacParticipantRK: I assume that you meant someone who doesnt actually believe in anything…i would imagine that the answer is no…
EH: im not starting any organizations…
i was in yeshiva X for ninth grade and then switched to yeshiva Y.
in yeshiva X you couldnt ask the top bachurim questions. i was mid-high level in shiur, not the best but i was up there. every time it came time for a test or a farher, all the best bochurim would team up with each other, and the weaker guys were left to fend for themselves. so i basically had a chabura of 9 guys who i would teach 2 months of material to in 2 weeks. once in a while i would have a question myself seeing as i didnt have a proper chavrusa of my own. so i go up to one of the best bachurim and i ask him if he has time to answer a really quick question. he says “i’m sorry, im busy learning”
i wanted to punch the little brat square in the jaw. what did you just say?! YOURE LEARNING?! you little piece of trash…WHAT DO YOU THINK IM DOING?! no. apparently my learning was worthless compared to his.
or when it came to hashkafa questions. none of the rebbeim wanted to answer anyone;s questions.
when i switched yeshivos everything changed. the best bachurim were more than happy to answer anyone;s questions (within reason) and the rebbeim encouraged discussions about emuna and hashkafah. in both places there were people i knew would go off the derech. in yeshiva X a lot of those people DID go off the derech. in yeshiva Y NONE of them went off the derech. nuff said?
Mytake: and why do you suppose that is. because these problems were invented in the year 2000? ive encountered a lot of stigma in my short 19 years in this world, and i cant remember how many times ive heard some idiot say “nisht bay inzerer”
REALLY?! really?! no, of course nisht bay inzerer…THEYRE ALREADY OFF THE DERECH!
September 7, 2011 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #807015minyan galMemberbomb: What a wonderful and very thought-provoking article. I learned a lot from it. Children of all religions have questions – that is what children do. If they aren’t given appropriate answers, troubles can begin. You are so correct when you say how can you expect a child to blindly believe in Hashem without explaining the reasons. If you don’t explain properly (for their age) and then also tell them that Yidden are better than everyone else, they grow up still questioning if there is a Hashem but with a “superiority” complex because they haven’t been told why we are “better”. To me, it really means that Hashem expects better from us, not that we are to think that other human beings are beneath us. You have such a wonderful “kop” on your shoulders. I wish you were the one doing lectures and teaching our youngsters what is right and what is wrong.
September 7, 2011 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #807016EzratHashemMemberYou’re right, it’s too early now to think of starting an org, but maybe in the future. Chazon is doing a great job, but I think it would be more helpful if their sort of presentation was ongoing instead of a one-time only, and if more groups were doing the same kind of education within the yeshivas.
September 7, 2011 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #807017bombmaniacParticipanthehe…dont make me out to be be more than i am…if i were telling kids what was right and wrong…*shudders*
by the way, just a side point to all those advocates of emuna peshuta out there. emuna peshuta is not “i dont know why anything happens, i just know it does and i dont need to know anything for my emuna…just being told by my parents that hashem exists is enough for me”
THAT is potentially damaging because if someone with a stronger will comes up to you and starts forcing his ideas on you, you become the perfect because you have no idea what to say. bari v’shema, bari adif.
the way ive always understood emuna peshuta is that you can delve into the deepest philosophical levels of theology and theory of emuna and hashkafa…but at the end of the day none of use can prove emperically that hashem exists. THAT always has to be purely based on faith and THAT is emuna peshuta. the more ive looked into it…because i used to be insecure in my emuna…the more i understood that i can look to theory all i want for answers about hashem…but unless i was willing to let go of logic eventually and just believe in hashem without feeling teh need to prove his existence emperically i would never have true emuna. and teh more i learned teh more i understood that.
September 7, 2011 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #807018MiddlePathParticipantBomb, this is yet another wonderful and informative article! Everything you’ve said here is absolutely true. Especially the fact that parents sometimes refuse to see their child as anything less than perfect until it is clear to everyone that the child is clearly problematic. I’ve seen it happen many times, as I’m quite close with someone who deals with these kids, as well as their parents, every day. Perhaps it could partly be due to the parents valuing their own, and their family’s, self-image, rather than their child’s real needs. And they only “choose” to start seeing their child’s needs once everyone knows this child is problematic, because at that point, they are maintaining their self-image by seeking help.
September 7, 2011 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #807019EzratHashemMemberbomb: are you in science? (metastatize)
September 7, 2011 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #807020Jonathan BMemberWhen I was younger and the plane would go into violent turbulence I would silently say Shema Yisrael. Now so many years later I just prepare myself do die. This may be the end and hopefully it won’t hurt too much. Has is ever ocurred to the writer of the very long article that ther are people out there who THINK and do not beleive or practice superstition and folklore!
September 7, 2011 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #807021bombmaniacParticipant“bomb: are you in science? (metastatize)”
I read that as “are you insane” the answer to which would be an emphatic YES! 😀
nope im not in science…ive only ever went to high school and have no intention of ever walking into a college…
MP: yup.
by the way…Chazon is a very ironic program. rabbi mechanic shows up and jumps around yelling about atheists and hashem and the universe and evolution and whatever else he yaps about…and when hes finished around an hour later everyone is shaking their heads saying “why on earth did i just sit through that…im not OTD” but the next day…you hear them discussing every hashkafic and emuna related topic mentioned in the lecture for teh next week and a half. and i think thats the greatest success of Chazon. that they get bochurim and rebbeim talking about these things.
September 7, 2011 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #807022bombmaniacParticipant“When I was younger and the plane would go into violent turbulence I would silently say Shema Yisrael. Now so many years later I just prepare myself do die. This may be the end and hopefully it won’t hurt too much. Has is ever ocurred to the writer of the very long article that ther are people out there who THINK and do not beleive or practice superstition and folklore!”
speak plainly…what exactly is your point?
September 7, 2011 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #807023mytakeMemberAnd regarding the Yiddishkeit questions, there are those with the Emunah Peshuta line.
The mechanchim in our school system are not used to addressing these issues. As you pointed out, these topics are only out in the open in the Kiruv world, and most teachers/rebbeim wouldn’t have a clue how to answer many of the questions that their students may ask. Many of them are parents themselves who belong to one of the catagories that I mentioned.
I really don’t think we can explain the social stigmas you describe with one underlying cause. I believe it is a combination of the above mentioned issues.
September 7, 2011 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #807024HolyMoeParticipantThis is one very powerful essay.
This is MUCH bigger than our coffee room.
Bombmaniac I don’t know who you are but you have articulated many feelings I had over the years.
This essay of yours should be required reading by anyone and everyone giving advise and guidance to our people (of any age).
September 7, 2011 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #807025oomisParticipantVery powerful words.
“Does one who is orthoprax (I believe that’s the word used to describe the folks you are talking about)receive any sachar for the mitzvos that he is performing, albeit by rote and not by conviction? “
Yes. You get sachar for every mitzvah you do, even if you HATE doing it (unless, I suppose the actual mitzvah involves love, such as V’ahavta l’rayacha), and in fact, lifum tz’ara agra – the harder it might be to do the mitzvah, the more sachar you may earn for still doing it. Who cares (well I do, actually) if you give tzedaka by rote? At least you are giving it! So what if you fasted on Yom Kippur because you ALWAYS fast on YK? You still fasted. Is it better do feel the conviction rather than do things by rote? Absolutely. But is it still better to do it by rote than not at all? Absolutely. Having no kavanah but still following the Torah, will always be better than not following the Torah. And we DO believe that m’toch shelo lishma, ba lishma. And do not forget that even when you do not see the positive ramifgications upon yourself, doing those mitzvos impacts other people’s lives also.
September 7, 2011 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #807026bombmaniacParticipantyeah well…tell that to ami magazine when they send me what will probably be a rejection email…they dont like my stuff anymore
mytake: i think it started with reform and haskala…we felt a need to completely isolate ourselves from that way of thinking and from anything which might be considered secular. granted at the time most of teh problems listed above werent recognized by ANYONE as problems, but lets focus on hashkafa and emuna questions. such questions were seen as unacceptable at the time because refrom and haskala were gaining traction (each in their own time obviously) and in order to combat those movements, we couldnt allow a pischon peh for any kind of minus or apikorsus. i understand that. what i THINK happened is that mentality carried over the years until today and hashkafa and emuna are still off limits.
the other problems too…as far as i can tell this need for perfection stems from teh same place. we needed to be absolutely perfect because we had to be head and shoulders above reform and haskala. we couldnt be imperfect. idk…thats the way i see it…now im not saying that that must be the reason for stigma for every person, i just think thats the subconscious undercurrent that fuels it.
September 7, 2011 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #807027bombmaniacParticipantalso oomis as i undertood the question he was talking about closet apikorsim…if not then what you said stands.
September 7, 2011 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #807028MDGParticipant“Does one who is orthoprax (I believe that’s the word used to describe the folks you are talking about)receive any sachar for the mitzvos that he is performing, albeit by rote and not by conviction? “
I don’t think so, based on the Ramabm’s Hilchot Teshuva. There he writes that if one regrets one’s past then it is negated. I beleive that he says that a sinful past is negated, as well as R”L a good past. If by rote but no animus, then it seems to me that there is reward.
September 8, 2011 7:08 am at 7:08 am #807029dandelionMemberSeptember 8, 2011 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #807030bombmaniacParticipantyeah i hope the print it to…my gaavah needs to see my name in print and my taavah needs the money in the bank 😀
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