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mentsch1,
first, those were not “our founding fathers”, unless your ancestors were accountants on the Mayflower. For the rest of us – we were accepted by this country when we ran away from other, less welcoming, places. So, some of our fathers made a heshbon that this country is worth it.I do agree with you that early America was full of wild and unsavory characters. No reason to contrast with Britain, where most of those future rebels either ran away from or were sent from for their crimes.
But this makes it even more interesting to see how those rebels were able to envision a better place … if you disagree with their vision, maybe you can start with the running criticism of the federalist papers rather than snarky remarks.
Hashem provided a place to escape from the inquisition of Ferdinand and Isabella, who themselves hired Columbus to discover America.
Always
The only thing snarky is your founding fathers statement
I am simply presenting an alternative understanding of the founding fathers (happy now?) actions through, what I believe, to be the lens of the torah
It is very easy to buy into the idea that somehow america was founded by people rising up against a brutal regime (an idea expressed by a poster)
but it simply isn’t true
In some respects the “brutal ” monarchy we were fighting against was certainly more humane than the govt we created. Slavery, trail of tears, Jim crow. We could be a very brutal country. On the slavery subject we were many years behind the more civilized monarchy.
It was certainly a haven of sorts for the yidden but only to an extent. We all can agree the closed borders in 1939 where catastrophic. And those yidden that arrived before the war were decimated by assimilation. I stand by what I said.Assimilation was their choice. They did not have to assimilate as the chassidim in Europe dressed differently to avoid it.
mentsch1: Slavery is a supported Torah value.
We should always keep in mind that we are strangers in a strange place. Moshe Rabbenu called his first son Gershom and the second Eliezer. Hashem helps if the above is kept constantly in mind.
mentch > I am simply presenting an alternative understanding of the founding fathers
I am not objecting to alternative theories, I am proposing that you show how your theory applies to what those people actually proposed. They left lots of writings and you are showing no sign of addressing their arguments. As they were successful at building a reasonable society, we should certainly inquire at how they were able to do it. This is not to deny the negative sides of American then and later.
Ujm
Nothing about American slavery was a Jewish value. We both know that.
Besides for the examples that I already stated, it is estimated that 2 million people, about 20% died on slave ships. As I said that was the cost of doing business.
Slavers were evil men they weren’t doing G-ds work.Always
First. Whether or not their political theories were of value it doesn’t change the fact that they were mored bmalchus and started a war that killed thousands for political reasons.
Two their written reasons (federalists papers) aren’t going to be intellectually honest and say “hey we want to keep slavery”
I found this nice quote about the fathers complaining they were “slaves” because of a lack of representation
The irony in using this sort of language was not lost on many British Tories, who called out these rebel hypocrites. “We are told, that the subjection of Americans may tend to the diminution of our own liberties; an event, which none but very perspicacious politicians are able to foresee. If slavery be thus fatally contagious, how is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of negroes?” wrote Dr. Samuel Johnson in 1775. Indeed, these sentiments not only labeled many of the American leaders as hypocrites, but it also took a swipe at the very notion that America was founded on principles that were universal for all humansMentsch1: if the South had fully enforced all Torah requirements for the institution of slavery, you’d be commending them now for having been righteous in the matter?
Mentch,
out of all modern political experiments, American one seems to be most successful, stable, and least bloody. Compare with French, Russian, Chinese experiences. It may be in part due to relatively benign British rule (that evolved over time to a very similar democracy, after all, without any revolutions) and to remoteness from the centers of violence. Still, given the success, you can’t dismiss their theories as simple hypocrisy to cover up slavery.I suspect people who dismiss American thinkers not only are trying to build up their own theories, but are also covering up their own lack of education. I measured readability level of various authors last year with kids: recent Presidents come up at 6 to 10th grade level, James Madison – as 38th grade … So, maybe people who refuse to read and engage with those arguments simply may not be able to read them.
Ujm
Avadah
We would be having a whole different discussion
But we would also need to have a discussion about how those people became slaves to begin with
I’m reasonably sure the raiding of African villages to kidnap and supply the slave ships is a violation of “lo signav “Always
Or America is really a failed experiment as indicated by our ignorance and values
We did have a brief moment. But we seem to be in quick decline
In either case
My point has always been that the Brit’s were ahead of us as a social /political “enlightenment “. I do not dismiss British evils. They continued expansion into the early 1990’s. But they where still ahead of us. They weren’t a Wild West Country all they way through the 1800,s. They didn’t fight a civil war that killed half a million (their civil war was in the 1600’s) had we stayed as colonies in all likelihood many of the early evils of America would either not have happened or came to an end earlier. In stead it was their example that was a light unto the nations and forced the reckoning that caused the war to finally end evil.
And you can’t dismiss that the founding fathers were hypocritesAlways
I’ve been to China on business
You will see /hear more cops in a day in the us than a month in china
Their homicide rate is a fraction of ours
So yes, you don’t have the same freedoms but is being able to say and do anything the true Torah value of success?Mentch1
Your cherry picking. Is Russia crime free?
Besides, democracy and freedom of choice has consequences, people will make bad choices. But having a few decide for the many is bad.
Communism resulted in the death of millions.
“ is being able to say and do anything the true Torah value of success?”
Why not?
Is placing severe restrictions that are not from Hashem or have anything to do with religion, a true Torah value?
You know where else there is little crime? In prisons. Does that mean society should be placed in prison?
Re AAQ’s comment of 10/2/22, 7:59 pm: Your comment overlooks the fact that there were substantial numbers of Jews in Britain’s American colonies in the 1770’s. They were mostly from Spain and Portugal. Your comment also contains what I consider an anti-Semitic stereotype, i.e., that Jews are accountants. Jews are plenty of things (including accountants), but your comment buys into the notion that very many of us are accountants. (I do like Jackie Mason’s joke that the Jews who become accountants are not smart enough to be doctors or lawyers, but, of course, I am a lawyer.)
Take 2 — Trivia: When did England have three Queens simultaneously?
huju, I accept your addition, unless your ancestors were Sephardim in the colonies or were possible illegitimate father of Hamilton.
FYI, R Arye Lebowitz YU says that his smarter brother was supposed to be a doctor and he only a lawyer and then he switched to Rabbanut. By free association – Saul Lieberman offered Elie Wiesel a smicha so that he could get a job if journalism does not work out, to which EW answered “I am not suited to be a Rabbi”. SL replied “me too”.
Liz Truss resigns after 44 days fearing a kakistocracy, the worst people will rule.
Women in power is not a good thing.
ujm, lol. Meanwhile, both English Queen Elizabeths were great queens ( relatively speaking; I’m not a fan of “royalty”) while most kings of England were murderers and cheaters having tons of illegitimate children.
I am not so sure that Queens have advantage over Kings. There were way more Kings in history and so there are more memorable Kings famous for their misadventures. In Jewish history, there was were good Queens during Chashmonaim times, but then there was Jezebel…
Her official title, in full, is now: Her Majesty Queen Camilla. She is receiving equal billing on the official invitations to the coronation of herself and the King. No more queen “consort” as part of her title.
ujm, where did you get that no more consort? The Wikipedia does not say that.
Reb Eliezer, Google: coronation title queen camilla
The official website of the Royal Family (which, I think, is as good a source as one gets on British royalty) has her listed as “The Queen Consort.”
If her title is officially changed after the coronation, I’m sure they’ll update the website accordingly.
The Wolf
The official royal invitation to the coronation states:
“The Coronation of Their Majesties King Charles III & Queen Camilla …
Queen Camilla is given equal billing to King Charles. This is also in line with tradition in how recent previous British Kings titled and referred to their wife simply as Her Majesty and Queen (generally without any reference to Consort).
My invitation did not have consort, but had basad. They are so much into etiquette and inclusion.
“I am not so sure that Queens have advantage over Kings.”
Actually, Queens have the advantage over Kings. A Queen can move as many spaces as she wants, in any direction. A King can only move one space at a time.
Because the queen had to protect the king who rarely left the palace.
To the (openly) nazis ‘king’ of the UK (where the sun never rise for a reason), his former mistress, now spouse and “Queen” of the same place,
The world will never forget nor forgive your plan to exterminate the population of Ukraine, and for having caused Russians and Ukrainians to be in this current situation. We strongly comdemn your last shipment (those weapons that you call “aids) of depleted uranium (DU) shells to Ukraine, the move marking an “all-out escalation” after the British Defence Ministry confirmed the radioactive weapons were already in Kiev’s hands.
DU munitions are a terrible thing… for the agriculture and for the people of Ukraine, radioactive residue could contaminate the country’s water and soil “for at least six generations.
Knowing that Ukraine exports many essentials things, you are therefore pushing for a world wide genocide. There are stricts laws regarding the possession and the use of this type of weapons.
For those who died in Ukraine, or Russia because of your evil agenda and the lethal weapons sent to Kiev, I only have one thing tto say to those nazis from UK: השם יקום דמם.
When I hear or read “King Charles”, the next thought that comes to my mind is “Spaniel.” When I hear or read the world “Queen”, I think of that guy who sings “We are the champions”. And when I hear the word “Royal”, the next thing I think of is, “Flush”.
The one excellent outcome, certainly, is that the adulteress Diana never got the undeserved title of Queen that she strongly coveted.
Why are mods allowing repeated blaming of free countries for Russia’s ongoing murders?
for those who are not aware, most of online unmoderated and lightly-moderated forums in various papers and in multiple languages are full of similarly-looking posts combining pro-Russian and anti-West posts. I would expect moderated forums to filter that out – at least check that this is a genuine Yid rather than someone logging from a bunker in Siberia via Amazon cloud or something.
@ujm adulteress Camilla : 100% , cannot and will never be a queen of any kind
Always ask question, are you a troll hired by the CDC or Nuland? Why do you feel the need to offense anyone you can, whenever you can, if you don’t like YWN, feel free to go on vogue.com
I’m with huju and as an American I have zero concern on how Camilla is titled.
The best thing that happened to Charlie is when he was told by Macron, sorry “her majesty”, I have to postpone your visit in France, there is too much violence here, at this time XD
“100% , cannot and will never be a queen of any kind”
And yet, she *is* the Queen.
The Wolf
BTW, even under the original plan when she got married the Palace announced that Camilla “intended” to use the title Duchess rather than Queen upon Charles ascension, when had they stuck to that intention Camilla would still have legally been Queen. The announced intention was only that Camilla would only publicly advertise herself as duchess even though she*was* Queen. After the ascension she immediately advertised herself with her higher title of Queen Consort, per Queen Elizabeth’s “fervent desire” that she announced about a year before her passing. And now with the coronation the Palace is simply calling her Queen Camilla, without reference to Consort. Which is in line with how traditionally the British Queen Consorts have not used Consort as part of their title as Queen.
> Camilla “intended” to use the title Duchess
that is why constitutions help in limiting human ambitions.
Z > postpone your visit in France, there is too much violence here,
funny, I think, historically, most visits of an English King to France were accompanied by violence.
You wanna know what is nothing but a tragedy happening right now in Uk: “rabanim” asking children from jewish schools to sing ‘Adon Olam” for Charlie. Those who are planning this event will be exposed, those children are innocent and don’t know anything about the nazi ideology and obscure plans of this so called king, more like a bad clown to me.
Those who don’t want to sing hymns to Kings can move to America, as you also seemingly did.
Wait, the icing on the cake is that the notorious “rabbi” of uk will go to the church on saturday to honor his kig…for the corona..tion..
Among the many honors the new monarch will receive is a new rendition of the traditional Jewish hymn “Adon Olam,” performed by a choir of British Jewish children and accompanied by Ukrainian musicians… !!! השם יקום דמם
King charles is very pro yidden.
As a yid that lives in the UK that is very important .
For the americans imagine if Biden was outright anti-semitic it would cause antisemitsm to the highest levels.
However we have to respect him as king but not treat him like our actual king.
There would be some people making coronation parties for him which could be considered bad as it is chukas hagoi.There is a brocha for seeing a monarch, not sure whether current king has enough powers to qualify, but this shows that watching it may not be bitul zman
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