Killing lice on shabbos

We see that Chazal learned their science from the Torah. Rav Breil, the Rebbi of the Pachad Yiztchok, teaches us that we do not even entertain the possibility of a scientific statement in Chazal not coming from the Torah. This we see from Rav Briel’s answer to the Pachad Yiztchok’s question regarding the killing of lice on Shabbos. The Gemora permits it, based on a scientific fact. The Pachad Yiztchok asked his Rebbi that due to the possibility that this scientific fact is incorrect, perhaps we should be machmir and not kill lice on Shabbos, just in case.

Once we establish that the scientific knowledge that is incorporated into Torah Shebal Peh is derived form the Torah, it has the same status as all of Chazal’s interpretaitons of the Torah — they are binding:

The Gemora in Sanhedrin (100a) tells that R. Yochanan derived from a posuk that when Moshiach comes, the gates of Jerusalem will be made of jewels 30 amos long and 30 amos high. Some student said that such big jewels do not exist – “we do not even find jewels as big as doves eggs,” he said. Then, one day the student saw angels (!) cutting such big stones, and he asked them what they are for. The angels answered: “They are for the gates of Jerusalem”. When next he saw R. Yochana, he praised his qualifications for expounding the Torah, based on his “scientific observation” that confirmed the Rebbi’s interpretation.

R. Yochanan responded, “Bum! You only believe because of what you see? You dishonor the words of the sages!”, and the student died.

The Ran (Drashos #13) points out that the statemnt of R. Yochana had no halachic relevance at all – it was merely an Agadic interpretation, and the disagreement was regarding a scientific fact, yet the student was punished for not believing in its truth. Therefore, he concludes:

“Just as we are commanded to follow their opinions regarding laws of the Torah, so too are we commanded to follow all of what they say from tradition in Hashkafa (“Deos”), and medrash on Pesukim. And someone who veers from their words, even in something that has no relevance to any Mitzvah, is an Apikores and has no share in the next world.

Particularly interesting is a statement on this topic in the Aruch Hashulchan (EH 13). Quote:

“I will tell you a great principle: Chazal, besides their holiness and wisdom in the Torah, were also greater scholars in the natural sciences those savants (“mischakmim”) who would argue against their pure words. And someone who disagrees with them testifies about himself that he does not believe in Torah shebal peh, even though he would be embarrassed to admit it outright.”

Chasam Sofer (Beshalach) writes that this is the meaning of the posuk “Ki hi chachmascha ubinascha l’einei ha’amim” – Chazal were great experts in the secular sciences and disciplines. In fact, you need to know much secular knowledge in many areas in order to properly understand the Torah – and he gives several simple examples. However, since we are supposed to be busy learning Torah – not secular science – all day and night, and Hashem has no “nachas ruach” from us learning secular studies at all, how would Chazal have known all the secular wisdom that they clearly knew, as we see they did from all of Shas?

Answer: They know it from the Torah, since the entire body of secular wisdom is included in the Torah, for the Torah is the blueprint of the world. And so, when the Goyim see that we do not study the secular science books at all – and we even disagree with them! – yet we derive all the secular knowledge, in the most precisely accurate form – from only the Sefer Torah, they will exclaim, “Am chacham v’navon hagoy hagadol hazeh!”

A similar explanation is given by the Raavad-ibn Daud. He says that the posuk refers to the philosophical truths that it took the nations centuries to develop, we knew all the time via tradition from Har Sinai.

I was told by a Rebbi that there are Rishonim that talk about how every living thing comes from a male and female. So it’s not that Chazal didn’t understand the science, it may be that lice eggs and baby lice are too small to see so it’s as if they came from dirt.

@smerel
shabbos 107b directly rejects your explanation.

The Torah says that gender is determined by the woman. Science says that the male that has an x and y chromosome rather the woman who only has 2 x’s, determines gender. We explained that the woman creates an environment which influences the man whether to give an x or a y.

@skripka Talk to proffesional chefs about their dutch ovens and cast iron pans, then tell them Ta’am is no longer a thing these days.

@kuvult/skripka
To me, that answer is the worst. The absolute worst. If you ask any rav a sh’ailah, they’ll tell you “according to my research…” “According to Dr. …. the way it works is….” They will NOT pasken absolutely on something they don’t know. They’ll make sure to say “If, indeed, that’s how the fuse works, then on Shabbos…”
And Chazal who came to be koveia halachos for dorei doros–who filled the capacity of the Lishkas Hagaziz (R’ Elchanan)–would have be severly irresponsible if they didn’t make sure to condition their p’sak on the veracity of whichever scientist they were basing it on.

The main problem is that because some of us, especially in the charedi community are taught to assume that Chazal knew everything, therefore if we seem to find something unknown to them that might deter some people. But we must realize that just like a rav today works with his knowledge if a given issue, say, electricity and cannot base halachic ruling based on info to be discovered thereabout in 50 years from now, so too did chazal pasken according to the science of the day. There is nothing belittling about that. We find explicit passages where a chacham paskened a certain way and was then rebutted based on info reported by doctors of the day (see Niddah daf …). I believe this approach is one of the valid ones out there. See also Rabbi Meiselman’s Book: Torah Chazal & Science for a comprehensive study of these issues.

@UJM That the extent of Chazal’s knowledge includes things that weren’t possible or knowable at the time is in fact mostly without merit. Chazal didn’t invent vaccines because they didn’t have the knowledge of vaccinology. They didn’t understand electricity not because they were deficient, but because they didn’t have that scientific knowledge.

There are examples in Gemara of Chazal using methods of being matir women using methods that are anatomically perplexing knowing what we know now about the human body, but the reality is that Chazal (I believe it was R’ Gamliel in that case although I may be wrong) were experts in THE SCIENCE OF THAT TIME. Either that, or he knew the reality and decided to concoct a excuse in order to be matir a woman who he knew was pure but who might not have had any proof to that.

skripka > were experts in THE SCIENCE OF THAT TIME

Chazal did not always follow everything the “current” science said, modulating it with masorah and common sense that not all scientists have. Creation v. eternal world would be one example.

apparently, some snakes some times can give birth years after mating. What is the point of gemorah polemics with the scientists? There is no such argument about donkeys – everyone knows that, right? Snakes are harder, but it is easy to take one snake and watch it. The greek scientist says that it took him years to study the topic. Maybe, the discussion is about those rare cases, rather than a typical case that can be easily observed.

@UJM Then we may not be arguing, just talking past each other. The point I was trying to make is that it isn’t correct to fault Chazal for not knowing about electricity, vaccinology, anatomy, anything really the way that we know today. They didn’t know about those things, because their scientific knowledge was limited to what the secular world knew at that time. Whether they got it from studying the Torah or from going to Greek medical school is a different item entirely.

What @kuvult said above is correct. It is not a pgam in Chazal that they did not know everything about science. It doesn’t take away from their gadlus in Torah and kedusha AN IOTA. Some of us have been taught that Chazal knew EVERYTHING, and that’s a bad thing to be told, because the reality is that they didn’t. And if you tell someone like the OP “Actually Chazal were right about lice” or “You could be matir a woman if her breath doesn’t smell like wine, that’s how the body worked in those times” You’re setting them up for failure

AAQ, interesting idea about gender determination.

skripa: I provided numerous sources above that Chazal’s scientific knowledge was not limited to the knowledge of the secular scientists. Chazal knew earlier many things that the secular scientists only discovered later.

@UJM Which things? Also, in regard to the point you made to @kuvult about medicine “What that means is that you can’t automatically assume how a Goy reacts to a treatment will also be how a Jew reacts to it. It doesn’t necessarily either automatically imply that it won’t work for a Jew.” Is incorrect. If you were a doctor, you WOULD assume that it would be the same, because there isn’t a difference physiologically between a Jew or a Non-Jew.

Are either of you disputing the Gemora regarding the Shichvas Zera of a Nochri?

Far be it from me to dispute a Gemara. I’m not sure what the gemara means, maybe it’s esoteric, maybe not. but I do know what modern science says, and there really isn’t a difference between two people, one Jewish and one not Jewish, where the only difference is their religion, in regard to medical treatment. Does a Ger’s physical biology change when they become Jewish? Sometimes even in halacha seforim you see errors. The Aruch Hashulchan said that one of the issues with drinking milk in America is that they are “known to mix milk of pigs into their milk”. Someone obviously told him that, but it isn’t true, he was misinformed.

Rabeinu Avraham Ben Harambam, who was a Rishon writes this:

א נתחייב מפני גודל מעלת חכמי התלמוד ותכונתם לשלמות תכונתם בפירוש התורה ובדקדוקיה ויושר אמריהם בביאור כלליה ופרטיה, שנטען להם ונעמיד דעתם בכל אמריהם ברפואות ובחכמת הטבע והתכונה, [ולהאמין] אותן כאשר נאמין אותן בפירוש התורה, שתכלית חכמתה בידם, ולהם נמסרה להורותה לבני אדם, כעניין שנאמר “על פי התורה אשר יורוך” וגו’.

“We are not obliged, on account of the great superiority of the sages of the Talmud, and their expertise in their explanations of the Torah and its details, and the truth of their sayings in the explanation of its general principles and details, to defend them and uphold their views in all of their sayings in medicine, in science and in astronomy, or to believe them [in those matters] as we believe them regarding the explanation of the Torah… we find that they made medicinally related statements in the Gemara which have not been justified or validated…”

The point is that this approach isn’t Apikorsus. You may have been taught differently, and if you were taught that it is apikorsus, you were taught wrong.

But back to kuvult’s question, if you are a surgeon and you are about to treat a patient, what are the differences?

And there are those who say not. Nu, so we have a machlokes…

Le’maysah, how do you, according to your shita, explain how modern medicine DOESN’T show any difference? That Modern women’s anatomy DOESN’T look the way the gemara says it does? (To be matir a woman no less) How would the Ran explain that?

I am confused with the statement that there is no difference between Jew and non-Jew. There are genetic differences between nations. There are nations that do not tolerate milk or alcohol.

Maybe you mean that a non-Jew may convert and will he acquire Jewish traits? That maybe not what sources mean, giving a general statement about Jews in general … But even then, if someone changes his lifestyle from hunting & heavy drinking to sitting with a sefer and drinking weekly, his condition will change.

Another interesting question: absorption of iron is decreased when milk is consumed. Iron comes from meat that was historically limited … So, Jews might be better at absorbing iron, leading to major metabolic differences.

@Always_Ask_Questions I was responding to the statement made above that there is an inherent difference to Jewish biological makeup in regard to medical treatment, as attributed to the Chasam Sofer based on a gemara regarding Jewish vs. Non Jewish zera. I agree with what you are saying, there will be basic differences between ethnicities and groups based on diet, geography, lifestyle, etc. But there isn’t much of a biological difference between Ashkenazi Jews and say, Middle-Eastern Non-Jews.

We have surprisingly little shared DNA with Western-Europeans. Most is from Italy and Germany, which is where most of us “shtam” from. As persecutions happened we moved Northwest from Italy and Lower Germany but did not have as much mixture with non-Jews

That isn’t to say we don’t have distinct DNA, we do. In fact, most of Ashkenazi Jewry can have their DNA traced to about 350 people in Germany in the 1300-1400s. Which is why there is a relatively high number of Recessive diseases among Ashkenazi Jews. Be that as it may, we still do not differ much from the Non-Jews of the Mediterranean area. (arabs, etc.)

The point I was making about converts ws that according to what @UJM said, there should be a genetic change when someone becomes a Jew, That is to say, a doctor who is treating a recent convert shouldn’t assume that what worked earlier would work now, because the man has changed from Non-Jew to Jew.

skripka:

“The point I was making about converts ws that according to what @UJM said, there should be a genetic change when someone becomes a Jew, That is to say, a doctor who is treating a recent convert shouldn’t assume that what worked earlier would work now, because the man has changed from Non-Jew to Jew.”

I said no such thing. The Gemora clearly said it is related to the gentiles having a different diet than Jews. Therefore, you certainly cannot assume a convert has the same medical status as a Jew. In fact, as the Chasam Sofer said, it is a generalization — not a hard and fast rule. You simply can’t *assume* that what worked for a Goy will work for a Yid.

“I am absolutely certain that I can find certain things you do that would be deemed apikorsus by somebody….”

Don’t be so certain. Certainly not by anyone of any authority. It simply isn’t the case

And none of your examples (wrong havara/pronunciation, Zman Tefila) carry the severity of rendering a person an apikorus and thereby forfeiting his chelek in Olam Haboah.

Would you eat some unknown substance if some medical authorities maintained that it is likely to kill you within three months of digestion — if another medical authority asserted it was completely fine to eat?

(And that’s before even getting into the fact that the consensus throughout the centuries of Tannaim, Amoroim, Rishonim and Achronim is that such a belief renders one an apikorus, yet you rest your eternal future on one Rishon (Reb Avrohom), where he is a daas yochid on an issue that the full corpus of Rishonim and Achronim never really even dissected his comment throughout the subsequent Seforim HaKedoshim. It, effectively, was a buried daas yochid until Mr. Slifkin trotted it out to defend his own apikorsus. History has proven correct the Gedolei Yisroel who declared Slifkin to be an apikorus, as Slifkin today is an open apikorus, who for the last decade plus is engaging in clear, open and unabashed mevazei talmidei chachomim on a daily basis.)

>> In fact, most of Ashkenazi Jewry can have their DNA traced to about 350 people in Germany in the 1300-1400s. Which is why there is a relatively high number of Recessive diseases among Ashkenazi Jews. Be that as it may, we still do not differ much from the Non-Jews of the Mediterranean area. (arabs, etc.)

the fact that Ashkenazim come from a small group of _men_ (the way I heard it, more variety and European admixture on female side) makes us different from even Sephardim. Mathematically, think about this way – you have a large multi-dimensional population. Take a 100 random samples – distribution of that small sample will be different from the whole population. That is, you can find some out of 1,000s variables that will separate these 100 from the whole. With time, those differences are reinforced. So, it is not by chance that medieval Europe starts depicting Jews with specific features, like long noses. I don’t think Romans or Persians ascribed specific features to Jews.

And also diet and public health make impact. It is in halakha, I forgot the source, that modern Jews are weaker – because weak children are saved by medicine. In older times, people who have a hard time fasting for a day would not be asking shailos about it, as they would have died in childhood on a day there was not enough food.

So, let’s define an Yid who lives safely avoiding major sins according to anyone.

First, he should not be angry at all. That’s by all opinions A’Z. 2nd, he should not disparage any other group of Yidden who are shomer shabbos by some opinion because they are in danger of a cherem if that other group is announced kosher.

Is eating treif a biggie? Is there a shechita that is kosher by all opinions? super-glatt.

Hametz on Pesach is a thing. Luckily, Mishna tells us not to worry about mice from neighbors, otherwise there will be no end.

How many times we would need to read zecher Amalek to satisfy all opinions? And will we violate tircha detzibura by some opinions while doing that?

@Always_Ask_Questions. I agree with everything you’ve said. My point from the beginning was that it is a problem that people like OP and UJM were raised thinking that anyone who says like you did is an apikorus. It is a shittah borne out of ignorance of anything other than what was taught to you in Yeshiva or a shiur, and it’s a huge shame that actually learning differing shittos has been so abandoned by the Hamon Am of the Torah velt to the extent that they’ve ceded it to “apikorsim” in their view.

@UJM, it’s the same Rambam you learn, the same Ben Ish Chai. The same Rashbam, Ritva, etc. You just never learnt it, and you were never taught how to react when confronted by it so you react by yelling “HERETIC!!!!”

I chose examples that were in my mind because of the thread regarding nusach and tefilah. I’m sure though that your usage of the internet for entertainment is ok with you and your posek, but there are credible poskim who hold that it is not only yehereg v’al yaa’avor, but that your wine is yayin Nesech. I trust that you tell your guests that before you serve them.

It has nothing to do with me. I didn’t call anyone an apikorus; I simply quoted to you the Rishonim and Achronim call them an apikorus.

Take up your complaints against the Ran, Aruch Hashulchan, et al.

I answered your questions. You missed the Rav Chaim?