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Do u let ur children call adults by their first name?? DId ur parents let u as a kid?? DO u let ur friends kids call u by ur fist name etc.. Please expound
absolutely not!! it is a tremendous disrespect for adults- not to mention how much more so to ones parents – to call them by their first names if you are a kid! If you let them call adults by their first names, their respect for adults will diminish severly as they see themselves almost as equals to whomever they address by first name.
I tell my kids to call any married person by their title, even if they are only 19, and any single person by their first name, even if they are 70.
I don’t know why, but this is what we do.
I taught the boys to address strangers as Mr. & Mrs., unless that person gave them permission to do otherwise.
If anyone calls me Mr. R, I reflexively say, “please call me Ron.”
Even my 86 year old mother tells young people to call her by her first name. Fortunately for me, she still allows me to call her “Mom,” a name that conveys both affection and respect.
There are many ways to show respect besides using a respectful title.
True story:
As a kid, I always called people “Mr. X” or “Mrs. Y.” That’s how I was brought up.
Fast forward 25 years. I’m working in an electronics store and my friend’s father wants to purchase something. I tell him to come in and perhaps I can get him a discount. As he’s looking through merchandise, I need to get his attention, so I call out to him “Mr. X.” He turns to me and says “Wolf, you’ve known me for twenty five years… you can call me Joe*.”
Even so, I still can’t do it. 🙂
Oddly enough, the only adult I called by first name as a kid was my stepmother. the only reason for that was that that was the way my father and stepmother wanted it. So, they are Dad & Jane* to me (and Grandpa and Jane* to my kids).
As a rule, we have our kids refer to adults as Mr. X or Mrs. X (with the above-mentioned exception of my stepmother).
The Wolf
* No, not their real names.
popa why is a single adult of 70 not demand the respect of you and i, much less a kid, let alone less so than a 19 year old who happens to be a married guy?
Klach:
What are you talking about? The difference is that she is married!
when it comes to aunts and uncles you cant just say its name you ad a title like aunt shoshie…… and by grandparents you say grandmagrandpa without a name……
acc to halacha, even a glatt goy age 70 is worthy of our respect!
my point wasn’t that a 19 year old married person doesn’t deserve respect etc but that you said even if a sinlge person was 70 he’s not!
I was making fun of the fact that quite frequently people respect married people more for no other reason.
when it comes to aunts and uncles you cant just say its name you ad a title like aunt shoshie…… and by grandparents you say grandmagrandpa without a name……
When I was growing up, my aunts/uncles were always “Aunt X” and “Uncle Y.”
I was privileged to have all four of my grandparents into adulthood (in fact, all were at my wedding). As a result, my grandparents were “Grandpa X” and “Grandma Y” (with X and Y being their first names).
The Wolf
married people are cetainly entitled, even halachically, to a certain degree of respect due to their marital status.
very close family friends are all auntie and uncle. neighbors are mr. and mrs. my kids would never call their grandparents by their first name. all my sibs are auntie and uncle .
One of my first introductions to the frum community was when I was invited to a Shabbos meal at the home of X* family. When the kids started calling me by my first name, I was shocked. I had never encountered such a thing before. I never called adults by their first names, unless they explicitly said to.
I discovered it was common in the frum community to call adults by their first names. I really didn’t like being in a peer group with three-year-olds, but that’s the way it was.
Then I noticed kids who were several years younger, were Mrs. Y simply because they were married, while I was still Z. I was especially irked when kids would call their friends’ moms Mrs. Y or Mrs. W, when Mrs. Y and Mrs. W were both my age or younger.
Fast forward about 20 years.
I’m still friends with the X family. Their kids, mostly adults now, still call me by my first name. So do their grandkids. And one day Mrs. X was complaining to me about a friend of her. She hates when their very-nearly-adult daughter calls her by her first name.
Meanwhile, I got so used to it, when I became friends with the A family, I was quite shocked when the teenage children called me Miss Z. But that is their upbringing. Their parents call all adults Mr. or Miss or Mrs. Whatever until such time as they are given permission to call them by their first name.
Since I’m Facebook friends with those now-adult children, they call me by my first name.
*All names and initials have been changed to protect the guilty.
I believe it is up to the adult to correct the child one way or another. My friends with whom we practically raised our children together are addressed by their first names and so are we to their kids which feels natural to all of us. But to others not. With the kids I work with, they all refer to my husband as “Tatty” and to me as Mrs……. or just “Mrs. B.”
My nieces and nephews refer to us by our first names because thats the way we wanted it, but their children call us Uncle and aunt or tanta.
This is something that always bothered my mother. She felt she deserved the respect of being called “Aunt/Tante” and not just plain “sarah.” I don’t think it is so bad if to their face you call them Mrs A but when you speak about them you mention their first name!
if you use their first name not in front of them, you’ll end up using it in ront of them.
Haifagirl – In the social world of goyim and not so frum Jews, almost everybody gets called by their first name, even by children. It’s still not that rampant in the frum community. Their social world is different than their professional or business world. This is the changes we had in this country over the last 40-50 years!
I hate when people try to call me Mrs. SJS. I vastly prefer to be called by my first name. I hate when people insist their kids call me Mrs. SJS. Its my name, shouldnt MY preference be primary?
With people like that, I usually compromise on calling me Ms. Shira.
calling someone by their first name erodes ones sensitivity to doing so and makes it more likely that he would then call others by first name as well.
sj
the parents chinoch of their children should be primary.
they may wish to instill a certain kind of respect for adults partly by the mechanism of titled names.
or perhaps their chinuch should be that the children should respect whatever preferences the adult prefers, in your case to be called by their first name.
the first is much easier for the child, more consistent, and my personal preference.
but in any case the primary determining factor should be what the parents have decided is best for their children
mrs shira is a nice compromise
In preschool we used to call all the teachers Mrs “Chaya” Miss “Leah”.. goes along what Mod has said!
When I was young, in the 60’s, we called all unrelated adults Miss, Mr., Mrs. with two exceptions: my mother’s two closest friends and their husbands, who were known by their first names. This was familiar but not disrespectful. We had other ways of showing our respect.
My father died when I was young, and my brother had a Big Brother who regularly took him places and talked with him. This man started out as Mr. T, but eventually became Uncle Harold. Uncle and Auntie are nice forms of address that convey respect AND affection, and need not be reserved for only actual uncles and aunts.
When I was in 10th grade, one really hip teacher said, “you can call me John, if you want.” We each tried it approximately once, since it seemed almost an allowable sin, but it just didn’t work for anyone, and we went back to “Mr. V.”
Mod80, but they wouldn’t let me have my kids call them by their first name. IMO, that’s my version of chinuch. I don’t think calling someone Mr so and so really teaches any form of respect. So why is it a one way street?
SJS – You proved my point -that by the MO calling people by first names is more common than by the frumme. It used to be common respect even amongst goyim, to call people by a title first, even in social atmospheres.
calling someone by their first name erodes ones sensitivity to doing so
Ummmm… you realize there are a whole host of people for whom calling them by their first name is completely legitimate, right?
The Wolf
I believe it is up to the adult to correct the child and say please call me…. I have heard some young adults address their in-laws by their first names and I find that appalling. But they told me that is what their in-laws told them to call them. I find that quite odd, but what can you do if a MIL or FIL does not want their in-law children calling them Mommy or Tatty or any derivative thereof, then it is what it is.
Haifagirl – In the social world of goyim and not so frum Jews, almost everybody gets called by their first name, even by children. It’s still not that rampant in the frum community. Their social world is different than their professional or business world. This is the changes we had in this country over the last 40-50 years!
The point is, I never encountered the phenomenon of being called by my first name until the frum community. In the goyish world, it never happened.
“married people are cetainly entitled, even halachically, to a certain degree of respect due to their marital status.”
says who? can you please cite sources?
“I was privileged to have all four of my grandparents into adulthood (in fact, all were at my wedding). As a result, my grandparents were “Grandpa X” and “Grandma Y” (with X and Y being their first names).”
My kids b”h also have all their grandparents so they call them “grandma X” and “grandma Y” with X&Y being their LAST name.
Health, my MO friends insist their kids call me Mrs. How is this a “frum” thing.
Growing up, I called my friends parents by their first names. Even my yeshivish friends.
I don’t claim to represent anyone but myself.
it’s unfortunate that yeshivish people would allow such a thing
klach, can you expand on that? Specifically, why?
I see kids acting disrespectfully to adults all the time while calling them Mr and Mrs. A title doesn’t mean respect. Its how you act that is MUCH more important.
SJS – it’s absolutely true that calling someone in a respectful manner while acting towards them with chutzoah and impudence is rather hollow.
However, allowing a kid to call by first name will diminish his overall respect for adults in general as he sees himself on equal footing, on a first name basis. This affects the aura that adults have in the eyes f children that engenders such repect. This is not to say there are no exeptions – of course there are. But from a chinuch perspective, it teaches kids a certain amount of respect for adults, something that has a basis in halacha.
klach,
I never saw myself on equal footings to adults when I was a child.
But lets go with your theory. At what age do we start calling people by title? A bar mitzvah boy is technically an adult. Should younger kids call him Mr. XYZ? Is it someone over 20? Is it someone married? Is it someone 10 years older than you?
thats a good question sj which each person has to decide
as in almost every matter one has to decide the exact parameters of where and how to apply it
but you make it sound like some kind of a refutation or something
no one here will dare to admit they were wrong and they see the validity in the other side
why dont we admit both sides have validity in their own way according to the way one lives his life and end this
just a suggestion
because thats not fun at all
and because the other side is always wrong, of course.
Mod80, I’m not a person who respects titles very much. I think many of them are worthless.
I don’t automatically think someone labeled Dr is smart. I don’t automatically think someone labeled Rabbi is honest. And I don’t automatically think someone labeled as “Mr” or “Mrs.” automatically deserves my respect.
But I was taught to treat everyone with respect. I usually defer to others wishes because its the easiest path. But I do truly hate being called Mrs.
I was once on the phone with my credit card complaining about something or another. The guy says, “may I call you Daniel*?”
I said, “No”.
*All names blah blah blah privacy.
Haifagirl – “The point is, I never encountered the phenomenon of being called by my first name until the frum community. In the goyish world, it never happened.”
One of two possibilties -Either you only mingled with goyim professionally or for business; or you haven’t lived in America for many years!
SJSinNYC – “I don’t claim to represent anyone but myself.”
This is true; but I was saying that calling people by their first names is more common amongst less frum than more frum. Almost everyone of the posters here said they believe first name calling is wrong. Along comes you -who disagrees. So you are another MO that believes in first name calling. I’ve seen MO’s all the time calling older people by their first names, and you came along who thinks along those lines. So you are another MO person, who does what I say they do. This kind-of helps my theory!
My kids b”h also have all their grandparents so they call them “grandma X” and “grandma Y” with X&Y being their LAST name.
That’s fine if that’s how you and your parents wanted it. Mine did not want it that way.
Or do you think that, as a four year old, I should have countered their wishes and used their last names?
The Wolf
no one here will dare to admit they were wrong and they see the validity in the other side
I wasn’t disagreeing with anyone except klach who seems to be saying that calling anyone by their first names erodes respect (sorry, I’m still calling my wife, sister and friends by their first names regardless of what you say. I will not call my wife “Mrs. Wolf”).
Otherwise, I have no problem with people who use first names of older people. I don’t… but that doesn’t mean that I think that those who do are wrong.
The Wolf
Oh, dear Haifagirl, or may I call you Haifa? When somebody calls me Mr. R or Sir I know they are either just out of the US Military, or trying to sell me something.
It used to be so easy when all members of the family had the same last names, too. Nowadays, you can’t be too sure what a persons last name is without asking.
The only ONLY place I have ever seen and heard children calling adults by their first name is within Lubavitch.
I didn’t read all the posts but I can’t stand when people don’t call me by my first name.
i instruct my children to call adult females either doda, tanta, aunt, morah, ms., & males uncle, mr., etc…..
if you start teaching them respect when they are young, you are teaching them menchlichkeit for life…
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