“Kiddush Hashem” Does Not Mean Looking Good by the Goyim

Correct

I’ve heard this claim before. It is false but I won’t bother to bring sources until you do.

I’ve heard this claim before. It is false but I won’t bother to bring sources until you do.

ונקדשתי בתוך בני ישראל.

Now your turn.

A Kiddush Hashem means acting like a Yid is Suppose to act

There’s a very strong association, but where do you get that that is what it means?

While true that isn’t what kiddish hashem means

There are lots of good things we are supposed to do. This thread is about kiddush Hashem, not all of the other things.

Greet people with a smile when your walking down there street band hold them door open for an older person who needs help.

Be mekadesh Hashems name by acting nicely and helping others including strangers

Kiddush Hashem (and the opposite) can even be in front of non-observant Jews. Rav Aharon Soloveichik said that it involves acting ethically even where the Halacha does not technically require it. See on this Be’er haGola Choshen Mishpat 388:5),

The Gemara in the middle of the last perek of Baba Kama, approx. daf 114-115, when dealing with gezel/to’us akum, is clear that causing a goy to think badly of a Yid is a chillul Hashem. Obviously what they glean from watching us does count.

Does going into a Hindu Temple in NYC and destroying all the Idols a Kiddush Hashem or a Chilul Hashem?

DY
“There are lots of good things we are supposed to do. This thread is about kiddush Hashem, not all of the other things.”

So that isnt complletly true
read the OP, Jseph is NOT telling us waht Kiddush Hashem means, he is just telling us what it isnt. ““Kiddush Hashem” Does Not Mean Looking Good by the Goyim”
One might mistankingly conclude (and knowing Joseph this s why he framed it that way) that there was no reason to look good by the Goyim. To which I am poiting out that isnt true.

If I said “Eating in the sukkah does not mean sleeping in it, FYI” It would be very on topic for you to say “True, but sleeping in the sukkah is also important”
I dont think it would make sense for me to then say “There are lots of good things we are supposed to do. This thread is about eating in the sukkah, not all of the other things.”

Joseph: Okay you’re right; you’re talking about the definition of Kiddish Hashem. I’m more referring to the outcome.

CA

“Is there a מצוה to look good by the גוים?”

I’m not sure what you mean by “מצוה” no I dont think it is one of the taryag mitzvos, and no there is no beracha “…asher kidishanu bemitzvosav vetzivanu likach high ranking position in the goyishe velt”

but it one hundred percent is a positive thing that goyim look up to Jews, As the passuk says “ושמרתם ועשיתם כי הוא חכמתכם ובינתכם לעיני העמים אשר ישמעון את כל החקים האלה ואמרו רק עם חכם ונבון הגוי הגדול הזה ” (to be clear I’m not saying taking a high ranking position is an example of that per se, my point of bringing the passuk, is that we DO care what goyim think of us, goyim saying “עם חכם ונבון הגוי הגדול הזה” is a good thing) This idea that we don’t care what Goyim think is not true.
There are even more examples of the reverse, ie having the Goyim look down at us (and by extension Hashem r”l) is a bad thing examples were brought above. Tachanun is full of such phrases ” לָמָּה יאמְרוּ הַגּויִם אַיֵּה נָא אֱלקיהֶם” “הַבֵּט מִשָּׁמַיִם וּרְאֵה כִּי הָיִינוּ לַעַג וָקֶלֶס בַּגּוֹיִם” and as we conclude ” עָזְרֵנוּ אֱלֹהֵי יִשְׁעֵנוּ עַל דְּבַר כְּבוֹד שְׁמֶךָ. וְהַצִּילֵנוּ וְכַפֵּר עַל חַטֹּאתֵינוּ לְמַעַן שְׁמֶךָ:” There is a lack of kavod shomayim when Jews are suffering, persecuted, downtrodden, looked down upon etc. Thus conversely ,it kavod shomayim when Jews are doing well.

Inyanei dyoma, “looking good by the goyim” even affects haclachic practice (!) The Rema 554:17 says וכן במקום שדרים בין העכו”ם לא יחלוץ כי אם ברחוב היהודים וכן נהגו. Ie when in a goyish street, you can wear shoes on tishaa baav. the MB explains משום העכו”מ שמלעיגים עלינו:.

Again, this isnt strictly speaking “Kiddush Hashem” (thouigh to be fair, phrases change we don’t use the term “chasid” the way chazal do,) and I’m not saying it is a “מצוה” to wear shoes on a goyish street on Tisha b’av. But we very much DO care what Goyim think of us, the Torah and H”KBH

To address a number of posters who pointed out that there’s chillul Hashem in front of non frum Jews or non Jews, yes, that’s true but it’s not the definition and probably not the ikkar inyan either.

I think Joe started this topic because nowadays the Frum media tends to portray alot of it’s Headlines – “Kiddush Hashem”. And when you read the article – it’s Not a “Kiddush Hashem”!

NC

“Except that dwelling in the sukkah does include sleeping.”
Yep, thats why I was careful to word it my way .

“If you wrote a post worded in the way you used as an example, it would be your fault for wording it poorly.”
Yes! Exactly! and it would be appropriate for you to clarify the potential error even if “sleeping in the sukah” was not the subject I opened with, and thats not what I was discussing (as an aside eating and sleeping arent 100% equivalent, we dont make a beracha on sleeping, a snack is allowed outside a sukah but a nap isnt. nonetheless, I agree with you 100% that correcting a possible mistaken inference in my post (whether intentionally poorly worded, unintentionally poorly worded, or even properly worded, but still one that could lead to a mistaken inference) is absolutely warranted )

“I think what Joseph and DY are getting at is that people should be able to separate its slang usage from its halachic meaning, which some posters seem unable to do.”

Fair enough. Though I don’t think that is what Joseph was getting at. I think Joseph was trying to say/hint/imply that We don’t care what the goyim think of us. and even if that was NOT what he was trying to say, It definitely could be interpreted that way. so I cautioned that while strictly speaking Joseph was correct (as I opened my very first comment on this thread “While true…”), I cautioned not to make the mistaken inference that his post might lead to (and that I believe he intended)

I’m not sure if we are arguing.

If you are saying that look there are these two noble ideas 1) kiddush Hashem and 2) looking good by the Goyim. We need to come up wit h a new term for the latter to separate it from the former., I wouldn’t have commented, that isnt very interesting to me
On the other hand if you are saying there is 1 noble idea (ie in this thread, obviously “There are lots of good things we are supposed to do” as DY so helpfully put it). Namely that of Kiddush Hasehm and there is NO good thing to “Look good by the Goyim,” THEN we ARE arguing, and I provided some examples to buttress my point

CA

Ah, but my imaginary thread wasn’t about ״תשובו כעין תדורו״ , it was about, and I quote, “Eating in the sukkah ….”

Both eating and sleeping in the sukkah are part of the מצוה of
״תשובו כעין תדורו״

I couldn’t agree more!
much like Kiddush Hashem and “Looking good by the Goyim” are both part of a yid’s avodas Hashem

“So I’m not sure why you brought that up ”
Sure glad to explain! Let me know where I lose you

1) Joseph wrote, that “Kiddush Hashem” Does Not Mean Looking Good by the Goyim .
2) I granted that his point was true, but noted that “Looking good by the goyim was important too”
3) To which DY said ““There are lots of good things we are supposed to do. This thread is about kiddush Hashem, not all of the other things.”
4) To which I replied with a mashal. In a thread about Eating in sukkah (note not a thread about ״תשובו כעין תדורו״) It is 100% appropriate to mention sleeping in a sukkah, as you correctly note while of course not eating sleeping is very closely related to eating in sukkah. (all the more so if I mentioned sleeping in OP, it is certainly appropriate to clarify that sleeping is part of the mitzvah. Similarly if Joseph mentions “Looking Good by the Goyim ” My pointing out that that too is important, is not comparable to bringing up ” lots of good things ” It is related to the subject at hand, it is literally mentioned up there in the title, go look it is still there! It is not at all an example of “a lot of good things”

Hope that helps, If it doesnt, that’s ok Don’t get caught up in the mashal if it is too confusing move on to and absorb my main point,
Namely: looking good in front of the Goyim is a good thing.

I think there is general agreement that the term, as used by headline writers, has become a journalistic shorthand for expressing pride and respect for everything from little acts of kindness from a yid to a goy to significant professional and secular accomplishments by yidden. We tend NOT to use the term “Kiddush Hashem” when a yid achieves a significant milestone in limudei torah or new heights of hidur mitzvah (aka “Kiddush Hashem: 6 year old yeshiva bochur in Willy memorizes entire tanach with meforshim” or “Kiddush Hashem: Yid pays $13,000 for Calabrian Esrog”)

“Fantastic! So we agree, shalom al yisroel”
I think we always did. I just think myself and others didn’t really see where you were going with your mashal.

Might I suggest this one instead: people have come to (erroneously) use the word “muktzeh” to refer to any issur on shabbos, not just the issur of muktzeh itself (eg. “you can’t carry here. There’s no eiruv; it’s muktzeh.). If a thread sought to comment on this by saying “Muktzeh does not mean any action which is assur on shabbos” it might be confusing in the way you claim.

This being said, I didn’t get the confusion with this thread. If you kept up with the YWN headlines, it was clear what it was commenting upon. It’s really gotten out of hand.

“joseph: “Muktzeh does not mean an issur to carry, FYI”
Ubiquitin ” True, but caryying is assur too”
DY: “There are a lot of thing that are assur on shabbos, this thread is about Muktzeh not those other things””

There we go. Now I understand. The difference is that a Kiddush Hashem is an actual mitzvah, while looking good to goyim was described by DY as “a good thing that we’re supposed to do.” He was careful to use lashon such that it wouldn’t sound me’akev. Do you think it is an actual mitzvah to look good in front of goyim, or just a practical consideration? Are we all in agreement that a frum woman getting a job in the US government is not truly a “Kiddush Hashem” in the Torahdik sense?

Joseph: “Does going into a Hindu Temple in NYC and destroying all the Idols a Kiddush Hashem or a Chilul Hashem?

Kiddush Hashem.”

I find that hard to believe. Do you have a source?

Nu Joseph
what are you waiting for?

Best case scenario you get killed Al Kiddush Hashem which (you claim) is another one of your dreams

It is the halacha to destroy the idols in the Hindu temple, but it would likely do more harm than good, Meaning you would have to go to Jail for doing it and pay restitution for the damage plus the communal harm would be bad