Kesuba vs Kollel

I think I posted one part in a different thread about comparative ethical behavior in chinuch and general jobs. A lost post, $1 reward for finding it …

another aspect – comparative effect. An accountant may lose some money; a doctor – someone’s life, teachers/Rabbis – someone’s neshomos … To invert a famous comparison that respect to a Rav is more than to a Parent: giving olam habo v. haze: then a bad teacher is worse than a bad parent; if a mother is tired and does not want to feed the kid, or father watches TV all evening, the kid only loses out some olam haze; but a teacher who is not inspiring loses the kid.

To admit, a part of current system of keeping low salaries is designed to only keep dedicated teachers. As one principal argued to me that his teachers might make mistakes, but at least they are not malicious: “they are not here for the money”. This might have worked earlier, but now there are so many people who do not have other job prospects that they are going into chinuch out of necessity. Again, maybe OOT gets it worse and things are different in the heart of Jewish civilization.

> Do kollel men or Torah teachers not have wives?

Indeed, these exact words is what a Mussar rebbe’s wife whispered to his father when he attempted a mussar shmooze after Shabbos Maariv 🙂 The difference is that the working man’s wife can tell her husband to go work harder, look for another job. Wife of a person with limited work prospects has it harder, especially as she initially signed up for it. Let’s even say, she is ready to continue live in poverty provided he learns, but she sees that he lost interest and is biding his time. Of course, she can read him some mussar, but can she make him to love learning again to be worthy of her hardships?!

Always_Ask_Questions,

“Again, maybe I am too sensitive here to the holiness v other jobs, following rambam”

You want Torah Yidden to be perfect – we all do. We should be careful though because the yetzer hara doesn’t just use our taivos against us, it can use our holiness against us as well, changing a desire to build up into acts of tearing down.

“Again, maybe OOT gets it worse and things are different in the heart of Jewish civilization.”

I’m also OOT, and maybe things are different in your corner of OOT. But here, there are a lot of MO who express hostility towards kollel learning and kollel learners, R”L, perhaps using the Rambam as cover. And thus, those learning in kollel here are truly mesiras nefesh for their Torah, and they give back to the community with shiurim and chavrusos. And some go into other professions after learning for a number of years, but those learning seem genuinely to be on fire for Torah. That’s why I find it hard to process your stereotypes of the lazy and sinister kollel man.

I don’t see high hostility from MO to kollel in my area. some interact and come to learn, others – ignore and have their own learning. We might be an outlier as MO community is mostly academic and medical, not business or finance or other argumentive professions 🙂 Where I see problems is from people arriving from “in town”, mostly into professional teaching, showing hostility to MO or anything that is not “their way”. Mahybe we are getting those who were rejects in their local educational system.

Always_Ask_Questions,

“I don’t see high hostility from MO to kollel in my area.”

Old-ish joke: A lady in Century Village down in Florida was watching the news, and saw a breaking story about a wrong-way driver in I-95. Knowing her husband was driving home from the store, she called him frantically. “Irving! Get off the road right now! There’s a maniac going the wrong way down I-95!”

Irving said, “One maniac? I see a hundred!”

> your tochacha is unspecific, based on negative stereotypes

I was making some specific suggestions in the middle of stereotyping. If you feel any of these issues worth addressing, feel free to propose your specific solutions. It is, in fact, the right approach when you hear tochacha that feels very unfair – any tochacha is valuable, so search even an unfair one for possibly something relevant. for example, based on your comments, I’ll try to check more often how many cars are going the wrong way even if I don’t think I do 🙂

Always_Ask_Questions,

“If you feel any of these issues worth addressing, feel free to propose your specific solutions.”

Also, this is circular reasoning, because you are presuming the existence of these issues.

A Kesuba is a contract much like any commercial contract one may see in the secular world. Like any commercial contract it has Standard Terms and Conditions (sometimes referred to as “boiler plate”) which, among other things, obligate the Chasan to feed, house, clothe and otherwise support the Kallah. This is what is often read at the Chasannah. Also like a standard commercial contract, it can have appendices, called tosfos ha’kesuba which can specify, explain or limit the standard terms and conditions. It is my belief that any deviation from the standard kesubah, such as the kallah or her family supporting the Chassan in kolel, be stated in the tosfos with specific durations, amounts and other conditions as may be agreed upon. (P.S. these conditions or modification need to specified in the kesubah, not the tenayim,)

AAQ- as a kollel wife, I find your responses sadly misinformed. There are a very small percentage of kollel men that learn more than 5 years in kollel. They either leave because they can’t sit and learn anymore (nobody wants to sit and not accomplish- it doesn’t feel good) or because there wives say ENOUGH! Most kollel husbands want to please their wives, like most husbands in the world do. They care about their families. Many of them are very successful in the business world, and some aren’t, just like the rest of the world.
The few kollel people I know that are learning long term are doing it because they and their wives want it.
When discussing kollel men in Israel one runs into a different topic where people are learning not to go to the army, which causes many problems.
Men going into chinuch is also a completely different topic than kollel men.

amom, I hear you. (and I am sure Israeli kollel wives will deny that they have difficulties and find a tirutz for your concerns).

We have a lot of halochos that are built to maintain good social behaviors even in the face of potential bad behavior. As the daf is starting ketubos – we encourage chatanim to spend some money on the wedding – so that he has hard time deciding soon after the marriage that single life was better, why just not give her a get … and, in general, we have a ketubah and not saying “most husbands will be good”. what I am saying here, there are modern mechanisms to monitor business and learning processes – and I am wondering whether they are used or could be used. Say, I can see how my kids learned math by looking at standardized test. I can’t evaluate their mishna skills with the same precision, and you probably can’t evaluate your husband’s learning – or even his learning when you were getting married. Maybe, every rosh yeshiva provides exact feedback on the level of learning to brides & wives, do they?

amom > Men going into chinuch is also a completely different topic than kollel men

I see it as relates topic of men not getting prepared to earn parnosah. Again, not to deny the wonderful Rebbes and learners. I am talking about those for whom this derech is not working out.

Just read R Avigdor Miller who is speaking very carefully: yes, it is a good idea to teach a kid the language of the country so that he can earn a living. No, it does not mean that if your yeshiva is not teaching that language, that this is wrong. don’t think that. But, if your yeshiva does teach that language, they are doing the right thing. I hope I reproduced this pretzel correctly.

> Is full time Torah learning not a productive lifestyle?

not from the point of view of taxpayers – other than classes accredited academically and qualifying for educational subsidies. Maybe, if we behave in a way that Americans see the value of learning and write it in the law and regulations, then it will be great. Say, one who gets unemployment/welfare can either be learning a profession, search for work, or learn Torah. For example, Aleph has a certified program that helps prisoners and they are teaching Torah there, leading to earlier release.
Would it be possible to qualify kollel classes as educational the way some yeshivos/seminaries do? Maybe PhD in Yevamos?

The Rif and the Rosh are used as two poskim from three (Rambam) by the Mechaber to determine halacha. They don’t bring what is called הלכתא למשיחה halachas which currently don’t apply but will apply at the time of Meshiach. So the Kollelim have to concentrate on producing poskim and emphasizing the halachas derived from the learning. Even though there is a mitzva to learn, it is not the responsibility of individuals to support learning where halacha is secondary. The emphases should be מבין דבר מתוך דבר understanding one thing from another.

> would that check your productivity boxes?

sure, as long as one uses 3rd party funds as they are intended, I am fine with using them.

> and raise them in a culture that produces peaceful, extremely low crime communities with vibrant businesses and lots of travel.

Again, I have no problem using gov funds for their intended purposes. I do think, gov should subsidize (responsible) parents. I think T-s tax reform let us get deductions for children regardless of income and I felt very good – not just for the thousands dollars “saved”, but for the fact that the country values our parental contribution.

Another way to demonstrate the benefit of your culture is to organize a local government, such as in Lakewood/Monsey/New Square, where you can collect local taxes from your business people and support Talmidei Chachamim under watchful direction of gedolim. If such a community prospers, everyone could see the numbers in the town accounting and look up to it. Let me know if we have an example to review.