Keeping Mental Illness A Secret In Shidduchim🤕 🤒🤐👰🤵

Yitzy, why only take a girl that’s currently on meds? Do you not think other people would unerstand you? Why do you need a wife who has BEEN through this same struggle as you?

I think you need someone with understanding, someone who has dealt with heavier stuff in life. By you saying “struggled in life” doesn’t sound like nessesarily meds.

It doesn’t sound strange to want someone who can truly understand your struggle, but I’m sure people can understand and even have similar feelings but in other ways.

Thanks for understanding.
I didn’t really mean she had to take meds. I meant she should have an issue so we could understand each other and support each other. Of course a marriage isn’t about common challenges. I once almost got engaged to a Russian baalas tshuva. I think we understood each other. But people look at me and don’t see that I take meds etc (which is a good thing) so they don’t red me the shiduchim that have a higher probability of working out.

There is a shadchan, Mrs. Chava Most, whose focus is
on shidduchim involving people with issues of any kind.

Is there a way to respond to each post separately? I’m relatively new here.
Mrs. Most told me she doesn’t work with mental illness only physical issues or people in their 40s. She was nice when I spoke to her.
RebYidd-you make a good point. Certain meds are problematic during pregnancy. Not all though.
Shopping-I think you are making two points. 1-You seem to be not looking for a guy in kollel who will be supported by others. That seems separate from struggling with issues. I can understand that. Then 2-a person can struggle without it being mental illness. I understand that too. I agree with you that not “everyone has issues”. I hate when people say that. But in a sense, the older I get and the more I see, I start to see people really get issues! I think its a statistic. Every day is a potential for an issue.
When I was in yeshiva I was mkana the two best guys in my shiur (good friends of mine). I was depressed and they were the top learners. Well what happens? One nebuch loses a child to cancer and the other survives (bh) cancer. When I was having kinah did I know what was going to happen to the people I was having kinah on? Of course not. And terribly there are people younger than me who I have watched pass away. So in a sense I can count my blessings that I am alive. But I still so much want to get married and fear rejection for taking meds.

Takes2: What’s the issur of disclosing it “right before getting engaged”, given the engagement didn’t yet occur?

Disclosure how long before the engagement still qualifies as V’ohavto L’reiacho Komocho and how long does not qualify?

Disclosure how long before the engagement still qualifies as V’ohavto L’reiacho Komocho and how long does not qualify?

As implied by T2, before there’s a huge emotional investment.

I believe poskim don’t speak in terms of how long before the engagement, but rather how long after initially meeting. I believe the number generally given is three dates, but ask your posek for specific guidance.

Joseph – while that is true, it’s also right after they started going out. It’s pretty rare in the chareidi world to get engaged before the fourth date (though I do have several friends who did so).

Curious 1000: Which means the difference between telling right before the engagement and telling a couple dates earlier is not that big a difference in time.

Midwest2: Those who date 10 or more times end up in Beis Din more often than those who get engaged after 5 dates. And those who date for half a year or more have an even higher divorce rate. Even 6-12 months of dating will often not reveal major faults.

Is there a way to respond to each post separately?
No. : (

<e>I wish there was a book of stories of people on medicine who got married.

There’s no tension to a story if you know the outcome, and I
don’t think anyone wants to read 20 similar stories in a row.
(“Boy and girl get married” isn’t a very compelling storyline, either.)

“The dating situation is artificial, but if you see someone enough times you’ll get some sort of idea about how they think and react.”

Others commented about some particular number of dates, or whether those who date more vs. less end up in beis din.

Aside from there being virtually zero statistics on this, I question anyone reporting this based on anecdotal data. I do not believe there is anything at all to do with more or less dating. I do believe that mental illness is one of many factors that can become a problem within the relationship, and that the failure to discover or disclose it before is problematic.

But if we recall that the dating period is completely artificial, as noted in the comment from Midwest2, the amount of that contact does not matter at all. It is typical that when one is seeking to establish a relationship with another, that they put on their best face, both in physical presentation and in their demeanor. These two dating people are hardly the real people, and this prevents them from seeing each other under pressure, dealing with negativity, disagreement, etc., all those things that need to be part of managing a marriage. How is he/she when they are hungry, tired, or in a bad mood? That will never be discovered on a date, not the first, not even the tenth.

Attributing success vs. failure in marriage to these numerical factors is erroneous. It completely misses the core issues that determine whether the marriage has potential. The older ones among us can likely remember grandparents or great grandparents who barely dated, if at all, who enjoyed beautiful marriages for many decades. The parsha about what makes marriages fail or succeed is vast, and efforts to present any single factor are futile. The question here is about the secrecy of mental illness. Yes, it can make a huge difference. And there may well be certain people that should not get married altogether. I know that is a terrible thing to say. But not possessing the basic skills to manage a relationship makes such efforts doomed. People need to spend their lives being happy, and this requires making the other person happy, too.

So I called a girl tonight and she says, a great guy like you, why aren’t you married. I get evasive and ask her, why aren’t you married? She sighs and says how hard it is to fimnd a guy who isn’t divorced OR ON MEDS
Ok. So I’ve proved my point. Truth is, evberyone has their pekel.
How do I get positive?

My meds are for bipolar II. But people act out of ignorance (I am not saying you). They don’t even know the difference between Bipolar I and Bipolar II (not that they are expected too).
Being married to someone with a mental illness that is not controlled is a serious problem.
But why would you worry that a guy would stop taking his meds if he hasn’t stopped taking them for the last 23 years? True, the body can change and meds can need to be adjusted but lets say a girl is 40. The guy she marries may develop many other physical problems too. Gosh, I meet girls under 40 who are almonos so their husbands died! People can get cancer at any time.
But I’ve had enough therapy and I’m studying to go into a second career as a therapist to know that everyone is entitled to their feelings 🙂 That actually is the one thing I can think is a “maalah” of what I’ve gone through. It’s made me more compasionate.

Yitzy I hear. Listen, like I’ve told many people, if you tell me someone is really matim, then I’ll look into it.
Besides for that, my mom says I’m not even 20 and I shouldn’t “settle”. Meaning Chav Vshalom marry a working guy…..or someone not learning full time.

So yeah, I don’t think she’d go for anyone with meds.
It’s not that I’m anti marrying someone with meds, but it brings a challenge I have no expiurience with, and I don’t know if I’d willingly put myself in the position of dealing with that for the rest of my life. Of course, in a few years from now, if I hadn’t found my bashet (which hopefully won’t happen) at the age of 24, 25 I think rethinking is necessary, and meds are definitely something I’d learn more about and make myself comfortable with.

On that note I know a girl with bipolar, I don’t know which one, but I do know it was really out of control, and she managed to get married at 21. Hashem manages to get abusive, horrible people married. Although it’s kinda sad, it kinda reminds you Hashem is truly in charge……

To yitzymotcha: my heart goes out to you. The frum world is in a cocoon when it comes to this. In the outside world, most people meet and develop a relationship before it ever occurs to them to consider marriage. A strong relationship leads many to marry people with whom they know that life may be challenging. Whether it is Mental Illness, early onset Parkinson’s, Multiple Sclerosis, Type 1 diabetes, or a genetic problem in their family. Because they really want to be with that person. It’s WORTH it to them! In our world, the system, for understandable reasons doesn’t lend itself to that sort of situation. I am close enough to this topic to be quite well-informed. If I can give you some chizuk, this is what it would be:
1. Hashem is really, really in charge. He has given different people different nisyonos. I’m sure that you have some very special qualities. My assumption, based on some of what you’ve written, is that you know yourself, perhaps better than many others know themselves. Which lends itself to a refreshing sort of honesty, and reality based approach to life, and perhaps also to your yiddishkeit. My hope for you, and one that YOU should daven for, is that at least one… (and you only need one!) young woman will meet you, and find your individual strengths so worthwhile, that their response to your revelation will be… things like “How does that work? How does it feel? How would it affect me? What would I/could I do to complement who you are, and what you struggle with?” This would be a person who has already seen that you have very special qualities that would benefit her life, and that she is attracted to. You will be “WORTH” it to her! If she is really listening, because she wants to understand you better, you may be surprised at how impressed she will be with the strengths you have developed. She may even say “You seem so “normal”, I didn’t know one day I would meet someone who could truly understand my own triumphs over adversity!”
I have seen it, and I have spoken to Doctors who have seen it. I don’t know the “right” shadchan for you. I know ultimately Hashem orchestrates shidduchim.

2. There is currently a program in Cornell for especially dedicated to treatment of pregnant women who have emotional dysregulation in their history. This is a program dedicated to successful, productive outcomes in building a family, for individuals who are on medication, in therapy, and are high risk for mental health problems during and after pregnancy. I am mentioning this, despite your being a male, as an example of what some educated people out there believe, and what they are doing about it. It is possible, and it is doable, and it is reasonable for adults with challenges to have and raise healthy children, given the proper approaches, support, and reality checking that is necessary. If these medical doctors and therapists didn’t truly believe that, they would not have such a program. They would be referring people to “family planning” resources, as well as clinics to simply “get rid” of the “problem” as early as possible. (It would be inappropriate to use explicit terminology on this board).

3. I know a woman who is currently in that program. She has very mild asperger’s, bipolar disorder, AND borderline personality disorder! Really! She takes medication, and has done a lot of therapy, and continues to do more. She is constantly growing. Her husband loves her for everything she is: A deeply caring friend, an incredibly dedicated partner, a smart, capable and proactive, solution oriented person, and so much more. Why did he marry her? Because they dated for many months, over which time he got to know her well – and can’t imagine life without her. But what about him? Well they were introduced because they have common interests in the area of emergency medicine! Guess what: like most people, he has plenty of “issues”. Ironically, his have never been diagnosed, because apparently they never got in the way of his functioning as a bachelor! But he is a very devoted, responsible, loving person, and she is very attracted to him, and appreciative of how he treats her. Often, she has more insight into his “mishugasin” than he does. But she sees him as a whole person, who comes with strengths and weaknesses. As we all do. He has learned how to keep things real during her times of distress, and she has learned to tolerate and/or redirect the focus, when it is necessary for sholom bayis. And they keep learning!

As a friend, I am amazed at their relationship: How they go about their life together, the ups and downs, and the incredible commitment they each have to the other – and to their marriage. They are constantly doing things – small things – specifically to make each other happy.
They don’t sacrifice – they invest!

4. Many years ago, a young man was a guest for Shabbos in my parents’ home. He had come from a distant country for the simcha of a close friend. His wife and 4 children stayed behind. Due to a bunch of circumstances I ended up driving him to JFK airport after Shabbos. Somehow during that trip, this gentleman revealed to me that his wife suffers from major depression. She takes medication, and sees a therapist. To paraphrase HIS words, “this is a nisayon that Hashem has given US. I am glad that I did NOT know before, because I shudder to think that in my ignorance I may have turned away my zivug, the love of my life. I didn’t know because She didn’t know.” Apparently she had not yet had a major episode before they got married. Being that I do know more than the average frum Brooklyn Jew about mental dysregulation, I asked him how it has affected him. His answer: “I am much closer to my children than most fathers. At times that she was unable to be there for the children, I stepped in as father AND mother. I have explained to them that Mommy loves you very much. but that part of her is not working correctly right now. She will get better. Let’s daaven that it is soon. And the rest of the time, we raise our children together. I just wish she suffered less”.

He did not sigh. He in no way presented as carrying a heavy burden. He was far from pitiful. I must add that due to his geographical location, he is not “handicapped” by the limited vision that seems to be common in the frum community in and around New York, where I live. He said a lot more, (In his delightful accent), but as I mentioned in my first paragraph above, I hesitate to share more information on this forum.

I believe that Hashem orchestrated that this man stayed in my parents’ home, and needed a ride at the last minute, at least in part so that I could see what is possible. So that further down the road, I would be able to give chizuk to those whose mental health challenges are known to me.

(In no way do I mean to insinuate that anyone should hide a serious detail in their life from a potential shidduch. Deceipt destroys trust, without which a marriage is not viable. One should look for signs that the potential mate has the backbone and skills to deal with his/her personal problem, and then share the challenge intelligently, paying careful attention to the response. Rejection hurts, but it also protects you from someone who is not right for you.)

Where there is capacity for deep pain, there is also capacity for deep simcha, deep compassion, deep connection, and deep love. Some people really value that.

May your tefillos: spoken and unspoken, be answered for good very soon. Forget about statistics; Hashem works with each of us in a personal, individual way.

Moderators: Did most of my post get deleted?

TOL:

One of your messages in your comment deserves repeating, and some emphasis on it would benefit many.

You noted that aside from the stigma that accompanies a diagnosis and medication, there are countless situations of people who are unable to sustain the challenges of marriage that have no psychiatric labels, have not been subjected to evaluation, and are not taking any medication or therapy intervention. This is responsible for a great many broken marriages. In the Torah world, we tend to refer to this category as having poor midos. And you seem to imply that poor midos might be a characterological situation that will not be affected much by regular reading or studying of sifrei mussar. I soundly agree with you. That is why the homework done prior to a shidduch needs to address the matter of personality. The kinds of questions worth asking include, “How does this shidduch prospect handle stress? What do they do when they get angry? How do they deal with confrontation? How do they manage under pressure?” Responses to questions such as these (providing they are honest) are far more relevant than the individual’s academic record. All marriages will entail challenge. Is there a foundation of character traits that can deal with this? Or are we assuming that things will just work out (e.g. because the boy is a learning boy)?

You alluded to the book “Walking on Eggshells”. Fine book, useful content. Still, living with a spouse that has BPD is a huge undertaking. Kol hakavod to someone that wishes to stick it out. Many do that, and they are praiseworthy. Others jump ship, and often face a lifetime of challenge, nastiness, battles in court, and other forms of suffering. There are other books, too, that are worth checking out. I take a position that BPD is incurable. It can be managed in many cases, but a lifetime of intervention and support is needed. I am witness to cases that entered treatment, improved greatly, but upon stopping therapy, reverted back to their old ways. What Marsha Linehan contributed with her development of DBT was a set of skills that the person could continue to use without continued outside help. Once again, a cheaper way of continuing what therapy would accomplish. Saves lots of money, and provides a helpful strategy to maintain stability. But the condition of BPD never leaves; it just continues to be treated.