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December 12, 2014 12:27 am at 12:27 am #614443Jewish ThinkerParticipant
I have a question. Why don’t we have a kashrus technology thing just like by Shabbat? We have shabbos clocks and lights but by Kashrut, not much.
Why don’t we have an institution that tries to make a
sink a kli shlishi so we can clean milk and meat together or an oven that does something with the steam so we can cook meat and milk uncovered at the same time? It would help so much.
December 12, 2014 1:02 am at 1:02 am #1219837☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantFor the sink, I suppose you could adjust the water temperature to below yad soledes bo, but would anyone really be comfortable washing them together anyhow?
As far as the oven, steam isn’t the problem with davar yavesh anyhow, and you wouldn’t really get out of reicha issues, or potential spills and splatters.
The self cleaning oven is pretty good kashrus technology, as is the light box, and probably a dozen more items not presently coming to mind.
December 12, 2014 1:37 am at 1:37 am #1219838Jewish ThinkerParticipantObvioulsy if it is not yad soledes bo it’s not going to cook but I think (I may be wrong) the main reason the sink faucet is a kli rishon is because it goes continuesly from the boiler to the sink. But if one can invent some pot where the water drops into for a couple of seconds and then a second pair of pipes pick up the water from there and to your sink, it would be a kli shlishi and even if it boiling hot it cannot cook. As for the comfortobality part if a Rav said it’s not a problem why wouldn’t you wash them together?
December 12, 2014 2:16 am at 2:16 am #1219839☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantSome hold yad soledes bo does transfer blios even in a kli shlishi, plus there’s a slight risk of b’ein remaining on a dish.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=25074&st=&pgnum=241
December 12, 2014 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #1219840Jewish ThinkerParticipantMost poskim are lenient for a kli shlishi
December 13, 2014 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #1219841Jewish ThinkerParticipantAlso, you can invent a soap dispenser pouring soap into the water while it’s going through the pipes, that would give the water a soapy taste, hence pagum and you can wash meat and dairy at yad soledes bo. {the soap would need to get into every part of the water, though.} (even though you can technically put soap on every plate, it’s hard to for the soap to hit every part, so it’s risky to wash them together)
December 13, 2014 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #1219842☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantYes, but that would still make such a product less marketable.
Let’s go through the issues with mass marketing such technology. First, we have to figure what the cost would be to develop the product, and then to produce and install it. I don’t have a number, but it would probably be expensive on both ends.
Then we have to figure how many people would buy it. I don’t specifically know that either, but we can eliminate many. We can eliminate anyone who has a dishwasher. We can eliminate anyone who has two sinks. We can eliminate anyone who, despite having one sink and no dishwasher, doesn’t generally leave their dishes to pile up. We can eliminate anyone who is uncomfortable with washing milchig and fleishig dishes together in hot water, one factor being that it’s not l’chol hadeios.
Figure that most homeowners have either two sinks and/or at least one dishwasher, and figure that most people would probably not invest the hundreds of dollars it would probably cost into a rented home.
I think there’s no money to be made on such a product, so nobody developed it. Shabbos clocks, on the other hand, are not even a specifically Jewish product, and they serve a more important and widely useful function. Even the Kosher Lamp, which is marketed to shomer Shabbos people, is more useful, and more affordable, to a much larger group of consumers than would be a kli shlishi sink, in my opinion.
December 13, 2014 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #1219843Jewish ThinkerParticipantYes, now it would not be a good idea to try to get it into homes but what about newlyweds who move in and want to maximize their space so they get one sink with this device installed.
December 14, 2014 12:25 am at 12:25 am #1219844zahavasdadParticipantThe “Kosher Lamp” is no great invention, You can basically do that yourself. Make a Lamp and then cover it at night. Make sure you use things that do not burn
December 14, 2014 1:07 am at 1:07 am #1219845☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantJT, if you think there’s enough of a market for it, you can go ahead and develop it. Personally, I don’t think there’s enough of a market for it to be worth it.
ZD, then how do you explain the product’s success?
December 14, 2014 1:12 am at 1:12 am #1219846shebbesonianParticipantMaybe not a great invention, but a fantastic innovation. What you can basically do yourself, they put together into a marketable product.
December 14, 2014 1:14 am at 1:14 am #1219847zahavasdadParticipantDY
I would quote PT Barnum now, but I dont think it would be allowed here.
December 14, 2014 1:22 am at 1:22 am #1219848☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantLol, I know what he said, but I don’t think that applies here. I think the Kosher Lamp is more convenient than a homemade contraption.
December 14, 2014 3:12 am at 3:12 am #1219849Jewish ThinkerParticipantThe Kosher Lamp is brilliant.
I hope a Kli Shlishi sink would do as good if I do invent it one day
December 16, 2014 1:10 am at 1:10 am #1219850barlevParticipantInternet Cameras are used at milking plants to insure that it’s ??? ?????, and as far as I know it’s also used to save having a ????? ?????
December 16, 2014 1:14 am at 1:14 am #1219851YW Moderator-42ModeratorHow about invent a hot water system that can be used on Shabbos. We have urns for coffee. Why not make the actual boiler work in a similar way so that you can turn on the hot water in the sink/shower to wash dishes etc.
December 16, 2014 1:32 am at 1:32 am #1219852barlevParticipantShowering on Shabbos? Ask your LOR if that is allowed.
In our local mikve they actually fill the bor on erev shabbos with boiling hot water, I don’t remember the source for this, nor what is gained, but some poskim do not allow use of water that was heated on shabbos
How does your local mikve heat water on shabbos?
December 16, 2014 4:50 am at 4:50 am #1219853☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant42, it’s been invented. I don’t know if it didn’t take off because it was too expensive, if it was halachically questionable, or if there was just poor marketing.
December 16, 2014 5:40 am at 5:40 am #1219854YW Moderator-42ModeratorBarlev, I knew someone would ask that. I forgot to add a disclaimer to my post that there are shaylos about bathing on Shabbos even if the water was heated in a halachikly muttar way. Which might be why such a thing hasn’t taken off. But there are circumstances when it can be muttar and it can even be helpful just to avoid the accidental issur of turning on the hot water faucet in the sink. During the winter I often turn on the hot water faucet for general hand washing because the cold water is very cold and the weather is freezing. I have to remember not to do this on Shabbos.
December 16, 2014 6:04 am at 6:04 am #1219856–ParticipantHow about invent a hot water system that can be used on Shabbos. We have urns for coffee. Why not make the actual boiler work in a similar way so that you can turn on the hot water in the sink/shower to wash dishes etc.
Much of England is plumbed with that type of system (if you turn off the supply). The downside is that the hot water there is not potable, that’s why they have separate faucets for hot and cold.
April 1, 2016 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #1219857Jewish ThinkerParticipantAgain, as I have said on other theads, I’m not a posek so don’t rely on my halachick discussions.
April 3, 2016 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #1219858blubluhParticipant> How about invent a hot water system that can be
> used on Shabbos. We have urns for coffee. Why not
> make the actual boiler work in a similar way so that
> you can turn on the hot water in the sink/shower to
> wash dishes etc.
Yes, this does already exist. I lived on a Kibbutz in 1976 where they designed/installed such a device on a hot water heater. When in switched to “Shabbos mode”, it kept the water temperature in the tank below yad-soledes.
However, I don’t know whether such a device would help regarding the issue of showering on Shabbos/Yom Tov. That may depend more on whether poskim consider this change sufficient to relax the original gzeira.
March 1, 2017 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #1219859shebbesonianParticipantBump.
What’s the point in a kli shlishi sink? It still won’t make it ???? ??????? to wash meat and milk dishes together. ???? ???? ??? ???? ??.
In general, all of our kosher innovations only work when they are cost-effective solutions to a common problem. (Think kosher lamp, timers etc. they are relatively inexpensive, usually not that much more than a regular lamp or light switch.) Why spend money on an oven that allows you to cook meat and milk in the same oven when you already could if it’s a ??? ???, you could cover it if there is ????, and in most cases you won’t need your oven for both milk and meat simultaneously?
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