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#1:
A Himishe Brooklyn kosher bakarey hired a new mashgiach kashrus. the mashgiach came for his first through visit. he went through every part and everything was 100% fine. then he goes to check the ovens, etc. and everythings fine.
he wants to check all parts of the oven, and every bakery has doors in the back & sides of the oven to be able to remove a burning bread in middle of baking.
the mashgiach asks to open all these little doors so that he can peek inside…
lo and behold, they found a gentile workers meat lunch sandwich being kept warm inside this little door!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oy.
Sad. This stuff happens more often then we would like to think about. This is what happens when you employ goyim in Jewish food establishments. Additionally usually the employees aren’t that intelligent so even if you tell them NOT to do something they will likely forget and do it again. Remember to them it seems like no big deal its “only” a sandwich in an oven my gosh what’s the big deal?!
I am jealous of Jews that never purchased anything from a bakery or takeout in their lives.
Moral of the story: A mashgiach has to constatntly check on ALL establishments they are responsible for. Each time they walk in, they have to assume that the owner flipped out and traifed up the place. Another two very important points that hashgachas should implement are: mashgichim can’t raid the kitchen of the place they give a hechsher to and take pounds of ‘samples’, and a mashgiach can’t be working in another job under the direct jurisdiction of an owner he gives hashgacha to. In these situations, objectivity flies out the window.
Moral of the story: A mashgiach has to constatntly check on ALL establishments they are responsible for. Each time they walk in, they have to assume that the owner flipped out and traifed up the place. Another two very important points that hashgachas should implement are: mashgichim can’t raid the kitchen of the place they give a hechsher to and take pounds of ‘samples’, and a mashgiach can’t be working in another job under the direct jurisdiction of an owner he gives hashgacha to. In these situations, objectivity flies out the window.
Did you hear that story from Rav Belsky? He said it over in a Shiur a few years ago.
I wish I could say names but an aquaintance’s friend was recently in a restaurant and he was shocked to be served a non Jewish wine! He called the Rav Hamachshir and was told, ‘Oh, well you were a Shogeg, y’know’.
How does this underscore the severity of kashrus?
I heard that a particular donut chain that has a questionable hashgocha used to serve a parve vegetarian bacon until once the State kashrus inspectors found that the non Jewish workers had erroniously accepted a delivery of real bacon. I understand that they no longer serve that product, but things are warmed up in microwaves and with no Jew present in the establishment. What would keep the workers from warming up their meals in the microwave.
Certainly you don’t think that the d. donuts employees only eat donuts and coffee day in and day out.
Do you need donuts so badly that you’ll compromise on kashrus?
Once upon a time in a little town called Monsey, where everyone sanctimoniously didn’t trust the kashrus of the big national hashgachos that they use out of town…
my father ran a few dif. kosher establishments and one was a kosher bagel shop. at one point he decided to sell donuts as well and ordered from X bakery, not jewish but w/ a hechsher. imagine his surprise when he started getting deliveries. the box the donuts came in (12 per box) were sealed w/ one piece of tape, and there was no kosher symbol/hechsher on the box. the delivery driver handed him a roll of stickers w/ the kosher symbol that he (my father) place on the box himself. and how should my father know if the donuts were really the kosher ones?!?!?!?!?!?!?
I heard from someone I know who went to a store to get a coffee and is makpid on chalav yisrael and the store accommodates for this.When he asked for the chalav yisrael milk he watched to see what was going on and then he saw the person take a empty chalav yisrael bottle and fill it with chalav stam milk.
I don’t think the present system is 100% but it’s close enough.
The question is would the Tzibur be willing to pay more for everything to ensure a higher level of Shmira.
I would put in cameras at all points of the restaurant and have someone review the tapes regularly that could find a problem.
There many Frum employed in the field but not enough to get 100 % of the staff.
Again, would you pay more to have frum people.
My father was a mashgiach at a shul for a couple of years. He once went into the dairy kithchen and stired a pot that had eggs boiling in it and found that the kitchen help had placed hot dogs in the bottom of the pot. Why they could not use the meat kitchen I have no idea.
I had a jewish babysitter, though I didn’t realize the level of observance of the home. When I returned home,I noticed she brought her own mac and cheese mix(non kosher brand) and used my meat pot to cook it in. It also made me realize, what about people who have house keepers, and are not around, do they have any idea, that their hired help could possibly, making their kitchens trief?
I don’t think the present system is 100% but it’s close enough.
More accurately, I would say the present system follows the halacha, so it is per se enough.
MY help is NOT allowed to bring ANY food in my home and I make sure that she has whatever she likes to eat available. She eats very well in my home.
Keeping that in mind, KOSHER establishments should NOT allow ANY outside food whether it be by customers or staff. It will serve them better and cost less in the long run for them to supply lunch and break food themselves instead of taking these chances.
As far as D. Donuts are concerned, FYI, they serve other food aside from doughnuts.
There was once a kosher establishment cooking a pot of 60 hot dogs. Suddenly, a non kosher hot dog fell into the pot, and the mashgiach just served them all!!
[end sarcasm]
Come on, people. Anecdotal evidence does NOT equal halachic problem. There is a certain halachic degree of certainty which is necessary to be halachicly confident in a food’s kashrus status. That is ALL that is needed. Period. For all of these stories, there are many thousands in which everything went fine. If according to halacha the chance of problems arising is too remote to be ???? for, there is no problem. Until you know the intricate halachos of when we are and are not ????, such stories are simply fear-mongering and appealing to people’s emotions. The Liberals would be proud.
[Clarification: Yes, I do know the difference between bitul and other areas of halacha. I was just trying to make a point.]
aries, how can a kosher donut shop ban employees from bringing in outside food? Will the employees eat donuts and coffee everyday for lunch?
popa, If when following halacha there still remains a vulnerability where people are known to be beating the system on kashrus matters, nothing should be done?
popa, If when following halacha there still remains a vulnerability where people are known to be beating the system on kashrus matters, nothing should be done?
Correct. That is what halacha is. (Of course, if the known facts have halachic significance, it changes the halacha. But raw emotion is not halachicly significant.)
passfan, coffee shops also sell sandwiches, eggs and salads. In addition, the boss can keep such items handy in the fridge as well as cheese if they have milchigs anyway. It would cost them less in the long run if they provided lunch for their employees.
PBA: ???? ????????. Your post wasn’t approved yet when I started writing mine – I only saw it after I posted.
I’m nogeia b’davar so I’m not commenting here
A family we were friendly with growing up had the following happen: The mother got sick and ended up in the hospital. She was diagnosed and treated, and while explaining the illness, it came up that this particular illness come from pork. So of course she asked, well what else can it come from? The doctor said maybe if you visited a certain country. So she says, there’s got to be another way, I have never visited that country and I’ve never eaten pork. The doctor says well maybe you unknowingly ate pork. The family did a little digging and found that their housekeeper, who they also allowed to cook their meals, would often eat her pork enchilada for lunch and then handle food preparation for the family. Scary, from both a kashrus and a hygenic perspective…
That being said, there’s only so much you can do. You need only follow halacha meticulously. Chumras are ok too but you can rely on them from today until tomorrow, and there will still be a way for mishaps to happen. Do your part, but no need to drive yourself crazy with hypotheticals. Daven that Hashem should protect you from inadvertently eating non-kosher food.
You can tell your help not to bring outside food in, but if you don’t check up on them they WILL violate it. Without checking up, there is no mirsas.
Unless I am misunderstanding popa’s response to me above (and please correct me if I am), popa is saying it is unnecessary to inspect/check your non-Jewish employees/domestic help for treif food (as Jothar is suggesting), since there is no strict such requirement written in halacha.
passfan:
You are misunderstanding. I am saying that there is only such a requirement if it is indeed written in halacha. But that if there isn’t, then there is no such requirement. That’s it.
As far as when it is and isn’t required, I don’t really know.
The point is, that these horror stories prove nothing. If the hashgacha is following halacha, it doesn’t really matter whether you find a problem one day. Because you were following halacha, and that’s what G-d wants us to do.
just wanted to add a good complimentary kashrus story. I was in Oh Nuts recently waiting in line after a customer who wanted some popcorn. Apparently, the machine was empty and had to be started in order to make a fresh batch of popcorn. The non-jewish saleslady then asked the customer to turn on the machine so that she could make a fresh batch! I was extremely impressed and want everyone to know about this incident!!
popa: So to understand your point, if a kosher establishment finds out (after the fact) that for the past 3 months their employees were cooking their bacon in the oven they prepared their customers food…
a) nothing to worry about the past, as they’ve strictly been following all halachic kashrus requirements to maintain a kosher food establishment. Customers need not be notified nor must all their customers replace/re-kasher their utensils used with the food from the past 3 months, as all kashrus requirements were strictly followed.
b) nothing to worry about the future and no need to change any practices, as they’ve always been following all kashrus laws until now, as it is. And assuming all the bacon offending employees have since quit, there is no need to treat the new non-Jewish employees any differently than the previous bacon-baking ones, as all kashrus laws were always followed from the get-go.
l’m assuming I’m still misunderstanding you, and my above two conclusions based upon my understanding of your stated guidelines are incorrect. Please correct my understanding and point out where, what, and why the above two points aren’t the natural conclusion of your points.
Thanks
passfan: I have no idea what you are talking about. Sorry.
Pleased to hear about the popcorn machine at Oh Nuts. One would also assume that the employees don’t use the popcorn machine to warm up their lunches.
Popa, the Halachos weren’t really written as instruction for mass production. To depend on a very litteral Yotze Venichnas, when you know that that is not really the situation it was said about, is stretching the Halacha to its limit. It became a situation where the workers are the Baalei Batim and the Mashgiach is Mirsis.
HaLeivi:
The halachos do change with the circumstances, according to the rules set out in halacha. I’m not advocating any particular din, I happen to not know these halachos very well.
I was just saying that the halacha is the only thing that matters, and not some emotional argument. That’s it.
I’m pretty sure we agree.
dvorak, and what do we learn from the above mentioned story, which you shared?
NEVER EVER LET YOUR GOYTER WORK IN YOUR KITCHEN!!!! you are taking a major risk. Don’t fool yourself. Is it worth it just for a bit of housekeeping?
Best I can tell, Chazal were not choshesh for donuts shenisaleim min hayain, so, unless one had another halachic reason to require a mashgiach temidi in a donus shop……..
There is a range of opinions on the issue of how often a yotzi v’nichnas needs to enter to establish mirsas and if customers at establishments where they are relying on the more makil side inquire they may be able to find out. For instance I found that the difference between o-u and o-u P on a particular canned product was a mashgiach visiting once a month for o-u and a constant presence for 6-8 weeks before Pesach, now which one do you think is less likely to have a mishap?
What are you suggesting?
Honestly, I think that owners should be just as vigilant as the mashgichim and they should do spot checking on their employees as well. Just because they pay for hashgacha does not mean that they should leave all the checking only for those times when the mashgiach comes. Owners should be as strict and as vigilant about it in their business as they are in their own home.
Not allowing outside food is one way. Supplying food for their employees obvious is part of that. Believe me, supplying the food really works. Employees are very happy to eat your food at work and save the money to eat their own food at home.
Firing employees on the spot for breaking this rule is another way to show how important the rules are. If immediate loss of employment is the consequence for breaking this rule, employees would take it more seriously. If you make excuses for employees then YOU are NOT serious about it.
Once I made a pasta dinner with a milchig sauce, and after I discovered that I had mistakenly used a fleishig pot! I called my Rav who told me, “Well, the pot hadn’t been used in over a week anyway, so the food is ok to eat. Just don’t use the pot again until you kasher it properly.”
Such a horror story, I don’t think I should trust my own cooking anymore!
If you have a babysitter in your home and you never check up on her, you can bet your house is treif.
i was making a chicken soup with kniedelach when the glass of milk i was drinking spilled into the soup. i was debating whether i could eat an isur dirabanon when my son walked in with pork chops. his yeshivah had given it to him and he tripped and the trief went flying, youy guessed it.. right into the soup. i was debating if i could eat a oinays when the entire soup fell on the floor from a football thrown from the livingroom. unfortunately it fell on my dog which is now buried in the backyard. moral of the story: dont get a dog
babygoose- I dont know the particulars, but chances are the bakery items are still mutar to eat.
PBA- I agree with you, but once a problem is discovered the 5th chelek of S”A would probably say we cant hide our head in the sand and assume it wont happen again.
Horror Story- Well known hotel in Yerushalayim ran out of ice cream on Shabbos so the cook substituted milchig ice cream. But again, not such a horror story because it was only a d’rabanan and it was a ????, if not a ???? ?????
Always run with scissors- I absolutely agree. The family in the story didn’t think bishul akum was a big deal and they now share their story to illustrate the importance of that halacha. Even if you leave the flame on (which is technically all that’s required for ashkenazim), you should be yotzei v’nichnas during that time. Or just cook your own food. I cook all food in my household. My husband washes the dishes. The cleaning lady does not do anything in our kitchen other than scrub the counter tops down. I still think these horror stories can be taken too far though. I have left the house for 15-20 minutes at a time while the cleaning lady happened to be there. While highly improbable, it is possible that she rubs bacon grease on my frying pans during that time just because, but no Rav I’ve heard of or spoken to has ever said that you have to stay home and watch the cleaning lady’s every move for every second that she’s there. One must follow ALL halacha, even the parts that don’t make sense to you, chumras are nice too, but nothing is 100%. Do your part, and daven for Divine protection.
Apush: What are you suggesting?
A big improvement would result from the public respectfully asking more questions both to Mashgichim, Rabbanei Machshir and business owners. Some examples of questions consumers should be asking are; What are the Mashgiachs duties here? What are his hours? Do you have the phone number of the Rav HaMachshir? How often is he or his representative here? What are your hakpadas?
These questions show the public cares about the kashrus and has an effect on the atmosphere of the place, it helps the mashgiach, and is imo an easy way for anyone to have a zchus of zikui harabbim, but be prepared to follow up if the answers are problematic, by calling the Rav Hamachshir or asking your Rav to call.
Was working as a mashgiach in a not so well known kitchen. I walked into the kitchen to begin my shift at 4pm. Supper preparations were well under way. The Rav Hamachshir happened to come in with me. He saw something on the grill and asked the mashgiach who was going off shift what was on the grill. He replied, they are grilling burgers for dinner. He was promptly fired. (They were kashering livers!)
For every “horror story”, there are thousands of vigilant mashgichim making sure you are not eating treif daily. Dont panic.
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