Home › Forums › Controversial Topics › Karpas – is any ha’adoma ok?
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March 27, 2019 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #1703271
Karpas – some use potato, celery or onion.
But isn’t any ha’adoma ok?
Why can’t I use watermelon as karpas?
March 27, 2019 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #1703298ubiquitinParticipant“Why can’t I use watermelon as karpas?”
You can
March 28, 2019 7:45 am at 7:45 am #1703355DaMosheParticipantR’ Pinchas Teitz zt”l used to use a banana. I believe the minhag is continued by his children.
March 28, 2019 7:46 am at 7:46 am #1703359Yabia OmerParticipantBut isn’t any ha’adoma ok?
YesMarch 28, 2019 9:16 am at 9:16 am #17033655ishParticipantAgav, there are those who are choshed that a potatoe is not hoadama and therefore are careful not to use potato.
March 28, 2019 9:16 am at 9:16 am #1703366wstntme111ParticipantMy family uses pineapple
March 28, 2019 9:18 am at 9:18 am #1703367To clarify: Is the TYPE of ha’adoma considered a “minhag”? Would anyone say that if your family used for years fruit X for shecheyonu on Rosh Hashona, that the family “minhag” is to davka use fruit x?!
You use a she’hechiyonu on Rosh Hashana. Makes no difference WHICH fruit! Why would karpas be any different – any ha’adoma? When did it become a “minhag:” to use a certain vegetable (by certain families/groups)??!!
March 28, 2019 9:19 am at 9:19 am #1703369And by karpas it must be less than a kzayis (an olive) – which means is such a small amount you can’t have more then even the size of a raisin. But matza requires that you must eat a kzayis (an olive) and that means you need to eat a half box of matza without interruption, within a few seconds…Like, are we talking about the same shiyur kzayis?!
March 28, 2019 9:19 am at 9:19 am #1703370rationalParticipantUsing any “adamah” is ok from a purely halachic bracha standpoint. A strawberry also works.
A normal way of thinking would suggest some sort of green vegetable akin to real “karpas” which is a type of celery.
In Europe these types were scarce , and some, like parsley, were unknown, resulting in odd vegetables being used, such as the potato . Sometimes the narrow halachah or minhag isn’t enough, and using common sense is beneficial.March 28, 2019 9:37 am at 9:37 am #1703392Reb EliezerParticipantWe the Oberlander use red radishes. Don’t make up your own but follow a custom. That is a zechus to follow a custom. They used potatoes because it was most common.
March 28, 2019 9:45 am at 9:45 am #1703401MenoParticipantAgav, there are those who are choshed that a potatoe is not hoadama and therefore are careful not to use potato.
What bracha do they make on it?
March 28, 2019 10:34 am at 10:34 am #1703439“Yhere is azechus to follow a custom” – as asked earlier, is the “type” of haadoma considered a minhag too? Like, is the type od shehechiyonu used on Rosh Hashanah also minhag (or ANY new fruit works equally as well)?
March 28, 2019 10:34 am at 10:34 am #1703436funnyboneParticipantwhat bracha is raw onion?
March 28, 2019 10:35 am at 10:35 am #1703430Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant5ish:
I think the chashash for not using potatoes is that they cannot be eaten raw. I’ve never heard of anyone holding that potatoes are not adamah.Rational:
Parsley was probably the minhag in much of Europe. The kitzur records it as the prevalent minhag, and I’ve known people from central Europe who use it. I’m not sure where you heard Europeans hadn’t discovered parsley.March 28, 2019 10:41 am at 10:41 am #1703460Avram in MDParticipantMeno,
“Agav, there are those who are choshed that a potatoe is not hoadama and therefore are careful not to use potato.
What bracha do they make on it?”
Maybe he meant raw potato.
March 28, 2019 11:59 am at 11:59 am #1703467These days many eat raw onions in various dishes such as salad, in a hamburger etc. Many varieties are mild or even sweet and edible raw.
March 28, 2019 11:59 am at 11:59 am #1703474Herring comes with raw onions “marinated” in salt water (brine).
March 28, 2019 11:59 am at 11:59 am #1703476rationalParticipantDear Neville
What you said is interesting. Parsley in Hebrew is Petrozilia פטרוזיליה
The Aruch Hashulchan writes that karpas is petrozilia, “ואין אנו יודעים מה זה”Possibly Rav Ganzfried had it in Hungary and Rav Epstein did not have it (or even knew what it was) in Lithuania.
March 28, 2019 11:59 am at 11:59 am #1703485There is a chashash that potatoes are kitniyos. Many of kitniyos issues apply: potatoes can produce “flour” (starch), grow near grains etc. There are opinions that treat potatoes as kitniyos (see Netay Gavriel etc).
March 28, 2019 11:59 am at 11:59 am #1703561MilhouseParticipant5ish is referring to Tzanz and its offshoots such as Bobov.
Meno, they say shehakol.
Neville, no, it has nothing to do with it not being eaten raw. Plenty of vegetables are not eaten raw, but when they are cooked they are ha’adama. And Avram, he did not mean raw potato, which everyone agrees is shehakol. He meant cooked potato, on which Tzanzers say shehakol because the Divrei Chaim confused potatoes (kartofel) with truffles (tartuffe) and thought they are fungi.
March 28, 2019 11:59 am at 11:59 am #1703563MilhouseParticipantDaMoshe, this custom started with Rav Teitz’s father-in-law, Rav Prell. The reason was in order to teach people derech agav that the brocho on bananas is ho’adomo.
Rebbetzin, where a practice has a reason, it makes sense to continue it.
March 28, 2019 11:59 am at 11:59 am #1703564MilhouseParticipantA reason not to use watermelon, pineapple, banana, or even potato is that it’s too easy to eat a kezayis of them. Using radish or onion makes it more likely that you will only eat a tiny bit.
March 28, 2019 12:07 pm at 12:07 pm #17036025ishParticipantThe sefer Nezer Hakodesh, a compendium of minhagei Melitz, Ropshitz, and other related chasidic groups, brings that Reb Naftali Tzvi of Ropshitz held that potatoes are shehakol. It further mentions that the Yismach Moshe originally made Hoadama until he heard that The Ropshitzer made shehakol. He subsequently looked in the Aruch (I assume it means HaAruch M’Shach) and saw that he says potatoes and mushrooms are shehakol. There are various other sources quoted in the footnotes and I do not remember them all but if you search “the potato in halacha” there is an article from the Kof-K which notes the opinion that potatoes are shehakol because they grow from the air and not from the ground, and it cites Lekutei Maharich page 127 (old), Divrei Yatziv O.C. 1:82, Shulchan Hatohar 204:3, Zer Zahav 2,
Pnei Ha’shulchan page 367, Shraga Hameir 4:11:3, 6:119, Mekor Ha’beracha page 69:52March 28, 2019 12:30 pm at 12:30 pm #1703613ChadGadyaParticipantAny ho’adamah is acceptable, but it’s silly to use something that doesn’t taste good dipped in vinegar or salt-water!
For me, that means anything sweet like pineapple, watermelon, banana, and strawberry are out.March 28, 2019 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #1703618MilhouseParticipantRebbetzin, there are NO opinions that potatoes are kitniyos. I have looked, and there is NO source, anywhere, reporting first-hand knowledge of any community where potatoes were forbidden, or any rov who forbade them. I know there is a peculiar belief circulating that the Chayei Odom forbade them, but it’s not true. He merely reports a rumor he heard that in some other country they forbid potatoes, but he never saw it and does not endorse it.
March 28, 2019 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #1703625MilhouseParticipant5ish, no, he certainly doesn’t mean Ha’aruch Meshach. That is a commentary on the first volume of Yoreh Deah; how would potatoes or mushrooms come up there? And why would you even think of that sefer in the first place? No, he means exactly what he says, the Aruch. But the Aruch never heard of potatoes, let alone saw one, and obviously does not mention them at all. He says truffles and mushrooms are shehakol, because they are fungi, not plants. The Ropshitzer simply confused potatoes with truffles. And of course there is no possible dispute as to the FACT that potatoes are plants, not fungi. So the Ropshitzer’s psak was wrong, and it is wrong for anyone to follow it.
March 28, 2019 12:50 pm at 12:50 pm #1703630lowerourtuition11210ParticipantFuynnybone – raw onion is shehakol. (according to some poskim)
The Nitei Gavriel states outright any “YereK” whose brocha is Borei Pri Haadama is acceptable except for those that re acceptable as maror.
Hilchos Pesach Vol II, Perek Pey Beis. Sif Daled
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46448&st=&pgnum=404
Sif hey – Nohagin Lchatchila lachzor achar yerk hanikra Karpas.
Sif Vav – Petrozila Vyeish Omrim Celery
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46448&st=&pgnum=405Sif Zayin- Yeish Nahagu Likach minim acheirim
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46448&st=&pgnum=406
March 28, 2019 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #17036415ishParticipantMilhouse, I assumed it could not refer to the Sefer HaAruch because it was written hundreds of years before potatoes were brought to Europe. So, I assumed somehow it came up in the Aruch MeShach. Anyways I was not commenting on the validity of holding of any psak, I was just bringing up that some have such a custom.
March 28, 2019 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #1703659Milhouse – “Rebbetzin, there are NO opinions that potatoes are kitniyos. I have looked, and there is NO source, anywhere, reporting first-hand knowledge of any community where potatoes were forbidden, or any rov who forbade them. I know there is a peculiar belief circulating that the Chayei Odom forbade them, but it’s not true. He merely reports a rumor he heard that in some other country they forbid potatoes, but he never saw it and does not endorse it.”
The Pri Migadem s. 453 Mishbitzos Zahav ss.1 and a”a s. 464 ss.1 writes that potatoes are mutter IF it is not in a place that prohibit the. (This implies that such places exist! – or else he would write that “celery” is mutter except in places that prohinit!)
The Nishmas Adam s. 20 that the custom was not to eat potatoes except during a great hunger the Bais Din convened to be mattir it to avoid danger and extreme hunger.
It is brought in Alef that Rebbe Yehoshua from Belz was makpid not to eat potatoes.
One sefer says that we are all fortunate that there were no potatoes in times of Geonim for if they would have them then, they would surely prohibit them as kitniyos because of their ability to produce flour.
March 28, 2019 1:38 pm at 1:38 pm #1703667With all the mild and sweet varieties of onions, many are edible raw and are used that way – in salads.
Herring comes with marinated onions which although kept longer, are basically raw onions dipped in salt water for an extended period.
Would one minute of raw onion in salt water be shehakol and half hour in salt water be haadoma? Who sets the time limit?!
March 28, 2019 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #1703764Question:
Who puts the karpas on a fork when dunking it or do you hold it in hand when dunking?
Who eats it from a fork and who holds it in their hand (dripping wet) when eating it?
Question 2:
A pickle is a vegetable: ha’adoma, and already dunked in salt water, anyone think it’s a good idea to use it for karpas – have one on the seder ka’ara and the rest just pull it out of jar?
March 28, 2019 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #1703995MenoParticipantI hold it with a fork. It’s hard to dunk a raisin-sized piece of watermelon without it slipping out of your hand.
If you use a pickle, you wouldn’t be dipping it. So then when the kid asks why we dip twice, you’ll say “What are you talking about? We only dip once.” and he’ll feel stupid, and it’s not nice to make someone feel stupid, especially a kid, and especially on pesach.
March 28, 2019 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #1704134iacisrmmaParticipantReb. The ArtScroll book Law of Brochos states that Raw onions are a shehakol. The fact that raw onions are put in a salad or even herring just makes it an ikor/tofel issue. How many people do you know who bites into a raw onion to eat it like an apple. As o your comment about a kezayis, I do not know of any shiur kezayis that states you need to eat a half box of matzah.
March 28, 2019 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #1704237GAONParticipantOne sefer says that we are all fortunate that there were no potatoes in times of Geonim for if they would have them then, they would surely prohibit them as kitniyos because of their ability to produce flour.”
That very same sefer states that it is indeed NOT kitniyos as we do not have the power to be Gozar new Gezeros. Only what the Gaonim prohibited are included not any new…
March 28, 2019 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #1704239iacisrmmaParticipantAs to eating karpas with your hand, that’s the whole reason for washing your hands without a brocha. Wet fruit and vegetables muchshar lkabel tumah that one is required to wash for. using a fork defeats the whole reason for washing.
March 28, 2019 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #1704297🍫Syag LchochmaParticipantMy husband was told by the rav that you cannot use a fork instead of washing your hands.
March 28, 2019 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1704372lacisrmma “As to eating karpas with your hand, that’s the whole reason for washing your hands without a brocha. Wet fruit and vegetables muchshar lkabel tumah that one is required to wash for. using a fork defeats the whole reason for washing.”
So, do you dunk with your hand AND eat with your hand, or, do you dunk with a fork and then eat with your hand?
Does dunking require hand or just eating (or maybe neither since it was muchshar l’kabel tuma)?
March 28, 2019 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1704376Gaon – “That very same sefer states that it is indeed NOT kitniyos as we do not have the power to be Gozar new Gezeros. Only what the Gaonim prohibited are included not any new…”
The Gaonim didn’t have peanuts and were never gozer on peanuts (indeed, that is why Reb Moshe ate peanuts on Pessach) yet nearly every yid doesn’t use peanuts on pessach!
So “my nafka mina” between potatoes and peanuts?! – both should equally be kitniyos!
March 28, 2019 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1704402lacisrmma “Reb. The ArtScroll book Law of Brochos states that Raw onions are a shehakol. The fact that raw onions are put in a salad or even herring just makes it an ikor/tofel issue. How many people do you know who bites into a raw onion to eat it like an apple.”
I guess there are two opinions on this. You cite for shehakol on raw onions – ArtScroll for shehakol.
I will cite for Adama on raw onions:
Shulchan Aruch Harav 205:1 , Seder Birchat Hanenin 6:12; Chok Yaakov on Orech Chaim 475:16; Rabbi Sholomo Gantzfried in Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 52:5.
These respectable sources hold: since it is common to eat raw onions with bread, the onions still have the status of a food item that is normally eaten raw. Therefore the appropriate blessing is Ha’adamah, even when the onions are eaten alone
March 28, 2019 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #1704423iacisrmmaParticipantHarav Dovid Feinstein in his Kol Dodi hagadah states that raw onions are not a borei pri hadama. Once again I don understand your proof as the onions are being eaten with something else not by themselves.
March 28, 2019 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #1704441knaidlachParticipantthe rebbe writes in his hagada (ואנו נוהגין ליקח בצל (או תפוח אדמה
March 28, 2019 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #1704428iacisrmmaParticipantThe Mishna Berurah states (205:5) soft ontions one does not make a vorie pri haadoma, except in areas where they are eaten without bread, but in our areas where raw garlic and raw onions re not eaten by Bnai adom even when soft without bread the brocha is shehakoland he quotes the nishmas adom that the brocha is shehhakol.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49624&st=&pgnum=222
March 28, 2019 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #1704438GAONParticipantSo “my nafka mina” between potatoes and peanuts?! ”
Very simple diff, they are totally two diff shailos:
Peanuts – I recall , is if it is included in the ‘min’ of Kitniyos and thus included in the very original Gezero of the Gaonim…Whereas, potatoes – everyone agrees that its a “min” on its own, the only issue is that “potentially” it can produce flour and should come under a new ban, but after all it was never included in the very original ban.
March 28, 2019 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #1704443👑RebYidd23ParticipantIf I get people to start eating raw onions whole, will the bracha change?
March 28, 2019 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #1704445” I don understand your proof ” – there is much that you do not understand. It is not “my” proof, but the logic of the great baalei halacha I cited. When we don’t understand something, the fault lies with us, not with those that DO understand and know what they are saying.
March 28, 2019 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #1704499RebYidd23 – “If I get people to start eating raw onions whole, will the bracha change?”
Would it matter if those other people are Litvish, Yekkas, Chabad, Sefardim? Like, why should MY brocha change just because Chabad eat raw onions?! (They actually do, I hear, for karpas).
March 28, 2019 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #1704529👑RebYidd23ParticipantIt’s actually unclear whether one makes a bracha on non-food items such as sneakers, shampoo, onions etc.
March 28, 2019 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #1704556RY33 – It’s actually unclear whether one makes a bracha on non-food items such as sneakers, shampoo
But if didn’t eat it that season, definitely shehechiyonu!?
March 28, 2019 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #1704557So, the guy that didn’t eat watermelon or strawberry that year, and uses it for karpas, does he make shehechiyonu?
Wouldn’t Haggada mention that BTW if you didn’t eat parsnip or radish this year, remember to make shehechiyanu?!
March 28, 2019 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #1704566MilhouseParticipantRebbetzin:
The Pri Migadem s. 453 Mishbitzos Zahav ss.1 and a”a s. 464 ss.1 writes that potatoes are mutter IF it is not in a place that prohibit the. (This implies that such places exist!
No, it merely implies that the Pri Megodim thought such places might exist, somewhere in the world. Perhaps he even heard rumors of such places. But he had no first-hand knowledge of them, because there weren’t any.
The Nishmas Adam s. 20 that the custom was not to eat potatoes except during a great hunger the Bais Din convened to be mattir it to avoid danger and extreme hunger.
Again, he was not speaking of his own knowledge. He had never seen such a place, or any evidence of its existence. He heard rumors, that is all.
That is the history of this strange myth. Nobody ever writes that here we ban them, let alone that I ban them. It’s always someone else, far away, where I’ve never been.
It is brought in Alef that Rebbe Yehoshua from Belz was makpid not to eat potatoes.
What is “Alef”? In any case, all kinds of people don’t eat all kinds of things on Pesach , without thinking they’re forbidden. Belzer don’t eat carrots, but they don’t asser them. Lubavitchers don’t eat radishes, Oberlanders don’t eat fish, Egyptians, who do eat kitniyos, don’t eat chickpeas. So it doesn’t surprise me that someone didn’t eat potatoes, but it would greatly surprise me if he held they were kitniyos.
One sefer says that we are all fortunate that there were no potatoes in times of Geonim for if they would have them then, they would surely prohibit them as kitniyos because of their ability to produce flour.
That is pure speculation. “One sefer” can say whatever it likes about what could have been in some alternative universe, but in this universe nobody ever prohibited potatoes. Nobody.
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