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I have seen some articles here from Rabbis who are critical of the minahag to use chickens for kapparos, and many many posters who are very critical of those rabbis.
I think most people are misunderstanding those rabbis. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think anyone of those rabbis is questioning the minhag of using chickens for kapparos. I think if you would ask them, they would probably say that using chickens for kapparos IS NOT tzaar baalai chayim.
I think their point is, is that the way it is done nowadays IS tzaar baalaei chaim. Since it is unlikely to change how the chickens are treated, these rabbis say that NOWADAYS one shouldn’t use chickens. This is because the way the chickens are treated nowadays, like being held in cramped spaces with minimal food, is tzaar baalei chayim. The argument is, there are many Rishonim who say that lechatchila kapparos should be done with money, and even those who say that it should be done with chickens, would agree that it shouldn’t be done IF it causes tzaar baalei chayim.
In short, no one is saying that kapparos with chickens is inherently tzaar baalei chayim. They are saying that it can be done in a way that is tzaara baalei chayim, and that’s what’s happening today. Since that’s the case, the benefits of specifically using a chicken for kapparos is outweighed by the negatives of the tzaar baalei chayim that is being caused nowadays… especially considering the fact that kapparos can still be done with money.
There were early Achronim who felt that Kapparos was Assur because of Darchei HaEmori.
Also, see Rashi on Shabbos 81b (I think). It is actually a fascinating source for seeing how Minhagim develop.
My wife and I did that when we were dating. But I held both my rooster and her hen. The guy doing it didn’t know what a rooster or hen were. I thought that was forgivable, except that he was doing kapparos for blasteds sake.
My wife and I did that when we were dating. But I held both my rooster and her hen. The guy doing it didn’t know what a rooster or hen were. I thought that was forgivable, except that he was doing kapparos for blasteds sake.
lol Popa. If it wasn’t you posting that I would find it hard to believe.
We are very cautious about anything that may look like Kodashim (Temple sacrifices)nowadays.
Hence, I believe virtually all customs avoid roast lamb Seder night, (and I have not heard of anyone using goat or ram for Kapparos).
The question is, does this extend to animals that cannot be used for the Passover offering such as roast beef?
Does it extend to roast chicken and turkey which are species that never were offered in the Temple?
According to this reasoning if you do not eat roast chicken the night of Nissan 15, you should not wave a chicken the morning of Tishrei 9.
In the end family minhag (custom) will triumph.
Custom or no custom this write up is getting me hungry for roast chicken for the seudah just before Yom Kippur!!!
Did they wave the cow over the head in the Bais Hamikdash?
I take my chickens home for the family, and give them food and water. They usually don’t touch it.
Sam, the Tur also quotes a Gaon, who used chickens.
Actually using money seems to be the latest addition. I wonder if anyone before the Chaye Adam mentions that. The point mentioned by Rashi is that you toss it. The animal, too, is killed as a Temura. Where does money come in to the picture?
Why is doing kaparos with chickens considered tza’ar ba’alei chayim since they are kept in cramped spaces with minimal food, but eating chickens shechted from slaughterhouses that also keep chickens in cramped spaces with minimal food is considered totally acceptable?
We use nice, clean money. I’m petrified of live chickens.
The Daily News reported about kapparot yesterday. The had someone from Skver who was talking about the effects of the heat we had this week. It seems close to 2,000 chickens died in their crates because of the heat. When they are left out there without food or water to the point where they are dying, it is pure tzar baalei chaim! Things like this are the reason why I refuse to do kapparot with chickens – I want not part of the aveirah! Until these people clean up their act, we should all be doing it with money.
Damoshe
+1 This.was.the straw that broke the camels backfor.me. I made up my mind that next year its with money for me. I want no part in this aveira I have enough already.
Once again, people are our protesting against kapparos, and it’s making the news.
While I think the motives of some (many?) of the protesters are not just about the animals, I (once again) do agree with the message somewhat. As in the past, the way the chickens are handled is appalling. I have no issue with the idea of doing kapparos with chickens, as long as they are treated properly. Leaving them out in the sun, stuffed in crates, without giving them food or water, is not the right way. It’s pure tzar baalei chaim. I truly believe the organizers of these places are doing more harm than good for themselves during the yimei hadin, by doing this mitzvah ha’bah b’aveirah. When they show such disregard for one of Hashem’s creations, why should they expect Hashem to look favorably at them?
I was made aware of another issue this year. A friend of mine went to a place where they use chickens, and told me that they do the shechitah right there. He said that the amount of chickens that are not slaughtered properly, and therefore can’t be eaten by Jews, is far more than it should be. He said almost half the chicken ended up in garbage bags because of it.
Once again, I will be doing kapparos with money. I know that when I donate money to tzedakah, it will all go to the right places – half of it won’t go into the garbage.
Can we please clean up the act of the people running these kapparos areas, and create a kiddush Hashem instead of the horrible chillul Hashem that has been going on for years?
If you must insist on doing Kapporat with a Chicken do it on a chicken farm and not on the street of 13th Ave in BP. The farm knows the proper way to store the chickens before and after the Kapporat and proper ways of sanitation.
BP is no place to store, and slaughter chickens
my minhag is not to do kapporos
I used to just use money, but I’ve become makpid to do chickens if I can, since it’s a kiddush Hashem to combat the anti-Torah liberals.
Funny story–went with expecting wife one year. Asked for 1 rooster for me, and both a rooster and a hen for her. Chassidish kid manning the station was all confused–why does she need two? Older chassidish dude told the kid don’t worry about it, just give them the chickens.
If you must insist on doing Kapporat with a Chicken do it on a chicken farm and not on the street of 13th Ave in BP. The farm knows the proper way to store the chickens before and after the Kapporat and proper ways of sanitation.
How you store them after? They’re dead. You chuck em in a bin.
How you store them after? They’re dead. You chuck em in a bin.
Boy, you must swing those chickens very hard. With most people, they don’t die until they’re schechted.
Chickens left out in the hot sun spoil and have to be thrown out. You need to process them quick enough so the meat remains fresh.
Throwing them in a bin and leaving them there for hours spoils the meat
I posted this before, I am sure one of our archivists will post the link. I know a thing or two about chickens, and the chicken industry, and myself do not eat chicken due the high risk (IMHO) of nevela and trefa inherent in the modern processing realities. There is another level to this beyond the issue of how it plays out in the public square. The earliest mentions of the minhag reflect that your kaparrah was your local bird, in your courtyard, kitchen or yard. Your children might had given it a name. It was shechted in the home or very nearby. It was a much more personal experience, and virtually no Jews lived in anything tha could be compared to a metropolitan area> Thus you have the negative street publicity, and two disconnects from “the way it was” just considering the historical data that we have.
Another disconnect eludes most because we are for the most part, very urbanized, yet unschooled in finer working mechanisms of the gashmuis world. To most, chicken is generally a pink thing wrapped in cellophane bagged and boxed frozen. Unless you are buying from a breeder, a hobby farmer or a hatchery, there are no tarnegol zachar to be had commercially. They are all culled to be wings and fryers at two weeks development, before the bird matures, becomes a nasty character to deal with and with stringy and tough flesh. It is a kapporah in itself to manhandle a grown rooster.
But non are to be had, the operators are getting truckloads of pullets diverted from the trip to the processor, and often truckloads of spent laying hens that generally get gassed and batch processed into not for human consumption protein meal. These latter are the shmatta looking birds for whom the box and trip on the truck are not too different than than the regular inhumane way they lived as caged battery layers.
Summation: How irecognizable can our practice be from the original minhag, how many of the details are essential elements how much can change before we can rationally and emotionally can abandoon a minhag that is so distanced.? How long before we can say it is ok for a zecher of the minhag? When do the disconnects and public liabilities exceed the benefit?
If your minhag is not to do it with chickens, do it however your minhag is. Everyone else who has the minhag to do it with chickens will continue doing it with chickens irregardless of the peta type crazies and their offshoots, with or without yarmulkas and whether Jewish or non-Jewish, like it or not.
“Chickens left out in the hot sun spoil and have to be thrown out. You need to process them quick enough so the meat remains fresh.
Throwing them in a bin and leaving them there for hours spoils the meat”
So?
What does this have to do with anything?
Popa, there is nothing anti-Torah about protesting the terrible conditions the chickens are kept in.
what do you mean, “so?”
that chicken is supposed to go to tzedaka to feed families. That is the whole point. If it is sitting in the sun and has to be thrown out, how can you say that “this is the tarnegol that is going to tzedaka?” Do you have to pick on things just because he said them? What question could you have on that?
Shtika,
Actually, nowhere does it say that the chickens are supposed to go to tzedakah as pat of kapporos. Historically people would eat the chiken themselves.
Besides that you are assuming they keep the geshochtene chickens lying around. In my many years of observing kapporos where they shechita the chikens, there is also a whole group of people butchering and processing the chikens immediately and most are used that day or for yom Tov. ZD made a comment which had no bearing in reality.
When chickens are transferred from one place to another, I [honestly don’t have a clue, but still] am sure that the crate method is applied, so this isn’t a kapparos problem.
I see Kaparot every year and they shecht the chicken and throw it into a giant garbage can with other shected chickens.
They do not have a butcher anywhere near the area. You are not allowed to butcher meat on the streets of NYC, you need to do it in a processing plant. There is alot of waste that needs to be properly disposed of for sanitary reasons and only the processing plants have that capability especially on a mass scale
As per several stories posted right here on YWN
If you need to make an obscene gesture at someone for a Mitzvah , you lost whatever zchus there is for the mitzvah . There is never permission to do that. it was a tremendous Chilul Hashem that picture
nisht: Wrong. Open a Kitzur Shulchan Aruch.
Joseph: There are major Poskim who have said the way these chickens are treated is a violation of Tza’ar Ba’alei Chayim. Is R’ Moshe Shternbuch a “PETA-type crazy”.
PBA: Anti-Torah people saying stupid things is not a reason to do things that are potentially problematic. We don’t kill Christian babies just because the antisemites say we do.
then the appropriate response would have been that you personally have witnessed no such a thing, instead of pretending that wasting chickens in a trash bin is not a problem. I don’t care who eats the chicken, as far as i know (obviously not much) Jews don’t waste food.
I personally have never witnessed anyone processing chickens on the spot but I haven’t noticed any cruelty either. at least not to the chickens.
Popa, there is nothing anti-Torah about protesting the terrible conditions the chickens are kept in.
Matan, nobody is protesting that. Read their signs–they’re protesting that we’re shechting them at all.
Which is outrageous, considering that they may as well protest outside every store and restaurant that sells meat. So really what they are protesting is religion.
Just because PETA protests the loudest doesn’t mean there aren’t any honest protesters who want to stop the cruelty.
The chickens used for kapparos are definitely being treated with cruelty. Whether this is worse than the typical treatment of chickens is something I honestly don’t know, but it is wrong. If this is how chickens are always treated, something needs to be done. I personally have seen chickens packed into crates like sardines with no access to water and no food.
The chickens that weren’t kosher or schechted properly are sold to non-Jews. So it isn’t wasted and the tzedaka profits from that as well. Additionally, even on a farm there is a certain percentage of spoilage. The spoilage by kapporos isn’t a lot despite the anti-semites’ (both the Jewish and PETA variety) lies.
Sam: The vast majority of kapporos centers treat the chickens halachicly and appropriately for animals and are appropriately taken care of.
I personally have seen chickens packed into crates like sardines with no access to water and no food.
And I personally have seen same chickens, packed into same crates, with no access to food or water, being fed.
Nor do I have reason to think these crates are sized any differently than the crates ordinarily used to transport chickens. I doubt they make different kaparos sized chicken transport crates.
Syag: In a lot of places, such as mosdos, who do kapporos, it’s the money you pay for the chickens that goes to tzedaka.
As far as the chickens, a family friend once spotted a popular kapporos center dumping them. When indignantly asking why, she was told that the processing fees and quality of the fowl didn’t make it worth it to clean, kasher, and distribute them.
gofish – didnt know that, thanks!
I used to have a chicken. I made him a huge wooden home in the den with beanbag chairs and free wifi. every night he would insist on sleeping inside my husbands empty sock drawer and insisted we close it. go figure. maybe chickens arent really feathered humans after all.
PBA: Anti-Torah people saying stupid things is not a reason to do things that are potentially problematic.
One word rebuttal: cholent.
Syag: In a lot of places, such as mosdos, who do kapporos, it’s the money you pay for the chickens that goes to tzedaka.
Then just use the money and skip using a real chicken that will get thrown in the garbage
Damoshe
“While I think the motives of some (many?) of the protesters are not just about the animals”
should read “most”
That said, It concerns me that amongst ourselves we cant be honest. It is impossible to deny that the way kapparos are done in a 21st century metropolis with many chickens crammed in crates with little to no access to food/water exposed to the elements is a far cry from the way kapporos were done in 19th century rural Europe.
Now you can argue that kapporos is an important minhag and especially when anti-semites are trying to eradicate it it is worth preserving in spite of the above.
But what cant be argued is that the chickens arent suffering, and it concerns me that some cant be honest enough to acknowledge that.
You can make an experiment. I do this every year. I bring them home and keep them over night and give them food and water. They are hardly interested. They definitely do not run to the food like hungry chickens. Most often they don’t take.
The Tzedaka part is mentioned as an extra Zchus. It is not part of the original idea.
While the theory of the chicken being used simply because everyone had it is mentioned by the Gaon quoted in the Tur as a viable reason, he goes on to explain that it is purposely used. This is further held up by the Maharal and Arizal. We have been using it long after Bavel. In France, Spain and Germany and in most places, Jews lived in cities and did not have the option of moving to suburbs.
Historical theories are nice but to use them as a Taana on others is pushing it.
Sam,
You are wrong. I am telling you what I’ve seen by R Moshe Feinstein and R Belsky.
ZD,
“Then just use the money and skip using a real chicken that will get thrown in the garbage”
But that is not the minhag. The minhag is to schlug on a chiken. Nowhere in the lashon does it say “zeh hatarnagol yeilech letzdakah”
Get an English translation of kapporos and see what it actually says.
“If you need to make an obscene gesture at someone for a Mitzvah , you lost whatever zchus there is for the mitzvah . There is never permission to do that. it was a tremendous Chilul Hashem that picture “
Classic diversion.
A worker was being harassed he flipped the terrorists “the bird” (I guess that is really sort of appropriate :0 ) and that is what YOU think is the Chillul Hashem.
But making a tummlt wuith the media and all while trying to stop a long standing minhag yisroel does not bother you.
You have some really mixed up priorities.
Sam,
So I was able to get a ????? and look at the actual loshon. I surprised how badly you misquoted.
Here it is;
?? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ??????, ??? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??????.
The Obscene gesture is no diversion nethier is the video posted on YWN of people getting attacked in their car who disagreed with Kapporat and were yelling into their cell phones for the police. Frum Yidden should not have to attack their fellow jews “Lesham Shamayim”
The animal activists in that car had stolen chickens. The first part of the video was posted on ywn yesterday.
Just because someone does the wrong thing, doesnt mean you should respond also doing the wrong thing. A Bnei torah should prove himself to be a true eved hashem and act kiddish hashem at all times
If someone is driving away with your stolen chickens, you have every moral and legal right to stop them before they disappear.
How many Gedolim say one should stone someone who is Mechalel Shabbos
“You have some really mixed up priorities. “
you are too intelligent not to know that calling a frum Jew on the carpet for his behavior has NOTHING to do with condoning the maniacs on the other side. For some reason you (and some others here) express that a frum yid can say and do anything he pleases, no matter how infantile or inappropriate, nivel peh included it seems, as long as the person you target isn’t expressing Torah values as you see them. Did it ever occur to you that maybe that way of doing things is not frum either? do you ever think about how many people you may insult or turn off of your “type” of observance? Our gedolim don’t behave that way and none of our musser seforim advocate for that type of behavior. Yet expecting a frum Jew to act like a mentch EVEN in the face of an attack is messed up priorities?
If you really love Hashem and His Torah that much, then try defending His truth instead of condeming His other children. When your teenager slaps his little brother for bothering the baby, does that make the parent proud? No, it just gives him two children to have to deal with.
Please, for the sake of some anonymous poster who would love to see your less “charif” (though still passionate) side, move on to someone else. No doubt there are other posters who annoy you and can handle a hit or two.
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