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cherrybin, this is exactly what the owner of the store said, and the eye witnesses said that the store owner came out with an unbelievable rage and started slapping and punching rihght and left, and he broke his finger while hiiting someone, and yes, some ppl whom he started with gave him back in self defense.
Store owner does not have any witnesses to confirm his account, Weissfish had many witnesses.
Guter yid – Don’t confuse self-haters like CherryBim, with small items like the truth. He isn’t the least bit interested!
uneeq -“Health- About the rest of what you said, I have better things to do than waste my time responding again.
Like pursuing my idea of printing the 5th chelek of shulchan aruch.”
In others words -“I don’t know C.C. or any Halacha regarding Loshon Hora, so I can’t respond to you”!
When you print your 5th Chelek is that going to include everything that you feel should have said in the other 4, instead of what is actually said? In other words -Are you going to tell us what is considered L.H. and whatever the Chofetz Chaim said is outdated & wrong?
cherrybim – I used to know a Yekke who would sing CherryBim – up and down our block. For his sake I hope you aren’t related to him. He would turn over in his grave – if he is related to you!
Health- Assuming, arguendo, that he wasn’t violent any of those vicious attacks, he is/was still a member of the sikrikim. The same group that definitely has reshaim involved (see youtube-Meah Shearim Terror Sikrikim Break Store Glass Door, and I’m sure there’s others). Being a member of their clan and violent demonstrations is directly colluding with reshaim, helping the evil continue their crimes against humanity and desecration of Hashem’s name. Oy lerasha, oy leshcheno. We need less of these type of people on the streets. So yes, good riddance.
uneeq -“Health- Assuming, arguendo, that he wasn’t violent any of those vicious attacks, he is/was still a member of the sikrikim. The same group that definitely has reshaim involved (see youtube-Meah Shearim Terror Sikrikim Break Store Glass Door, and I’m sure there’s others). Being a member of their clan and violent demonstrations is directly colluding with reshaim, helping the evil continue their crimes against humanity and desecration of Hashem’s name. Oy lerasha, oy leshcheno. We need less of these type of people on the streets. So yes, good riddance.”
Assuming, arguendo, that he is/was still a member of the sikrikim and he is Oiver Oy L’resha Oy L’schaino -what gives anybody a right to put him in jail for this? At most it’s a Bain Odom L’mokom – are you and the Tzionim G-d?
You have a lot more Sinas Chinum than these Sikrikim!!!!!
Health- Assuming, arguendo, that he is/was still a member of the sikrikim and he is Oiver Oy L’resha Oy L’schaino -what gives anybody a right to put him in jail for this? At most it’s a Bain Odom L’mokom – are you and the Tzionim G-d?
There’s 2 parts of what happens when this guy goes to jail
1) He stops partaking in protests and cannot cause or help problems
2) He gets punished
I would be happy if all of the sikrikim end up being in category 1. However, anybody who is violent should simply be in category 2. In a free country, everyone has the right to parade including gays, leftists, “settlers”, sikrikim, any many other groups. Do I want them thrown in jail for parading? Certainly not. But I would definitely enjoy it if they would take their shenanigans somewhere else. NIMBY, please.
You have a lot more Sinas Chinum than these Sikrikim!!!!!
Again, if they are violent, throw them in jail. If one particular guy isn’t, I would still be happy that he’s not around to join them. Am I happy that he’s in jail? Well, if there’s no evidence against him, then not particularly. But I will definitely not join with thugs to free him. There are better things to be sympathetic about. Like the sinas chinam you mentioned and victims of violence.
tldr; I’m happy he’s off the streets, not necessarily happy that he’s in prison
uneeq -“Do I want them thrown in jail for parading? Certainly not.
Am I happy that he’s in jail? Well, if there’s no evidence against him, then not particularly.
tldr; I’m happy he’s off the streets, not necessarily happy that he’s in prison”
So it took me three posts to get you to admit the truth, even though you didn’t apologize. Now YWN can do the same and admit their mistake and they should also apologize!
Health- Assuming, arguendo, that he is/was still a member of the sikrikim and he is Oiver Oy L’resha Oy L’schaino
So it took me three posts to get you to admit the truth, even though you didn’t apologize. Now YWN can do the same and admit their mistake and they should also apologize!
As you can tell, I am only assuming for arguments sake (since I don’t have evidence on hand to prove to others) that he isn’t a criminal. Again, good riddance can mean that I am happy that he’s away and the problem is partially solved. Not necessarily that I’m happy that he’s in prison.
uneeq -“As you can tell, I am only assuming for arguments sake (since I don’t have evidence on hand to prove to others) that he isn’t a criminal.”
Very good -this is called being Dan L’caf Zecus.
“Again, good riddance can mean that I am happy that he’s away and the problem is partially solved. Not necessarily that I’m happy that he’s in prison.”
It could mean that, but noone has to assume that. A person is Not allowed to do Maras Ayin. If an article comes out saying s/o was put in jail and then s/o says “Good Riddance”, it is upto the poster or article writer to explain their words. So YWN should issue an explanation on their headline!
So, is it being argued that this fellow was arrested, found guilty and now jailed on the basis of nothing more than politics or trumped up charges? No evidence, a sham trial and simple bigotry?
If someone has been convicted of violent crimes and the matter is generally known it would seem that he is muchzak barabbim as a rasha. The store owner’s problems with this mafia are also well known.
That being the case, it would have been bettr to write something along the lines of “crime does not pay” or “be warned” and some hope that he does teshuva. Just as Hashem does not desire to punish a rasha and takes no pleasure when He must do so neither should we.
apushatayid -“So, is it being argued that this fellow was arrested, found guilty and now jailed on the basis of nothing more than politics or trumped up charges? No evidence, a sham trial and simple bigotry?”
What you don’t understand is that it is irrevelant whether he is guilty or not. Acc. to the Torah (if you believe in it) only a Bais Din has jurisdiction to judge this guy up!
Avi K -“If someone has been convicted of violent crimes and the matter is generally known it would seem that he is muchzak barabbim as a rasha.”
Since he wasn’t tried in a Bais Din -he has a Din Kashrus like any other Jew!
Health, he was judged according mishpat hamelech. See also Sefer Chafetz Chaim 8:5 that for lashon hara it is sufficient if everyone knows that he is a rasha because of the constant bad stories about him whose veracity they do not doubt. See also Choshen Mishpat 34:1 that even if only one person knows that the person is guilty it is assur for him to testify in bet din along with him because of “al teshet yadcha im rasha” (Sma).
Hello, you’re right. I meant 8:7. Regarding the Be’er Mayim Chaim, in section 14 he states that “everyone” knows that the action is prohibited. Are there people who do not know that it is prohibited to assault and terrorize fellow Jews? In subsection 15 he says that one does not have to intend some benefit such as causing people to distance themselves from him or causing him to do teshuva when he sees people’s reaction to his malefactions. It is sufficient not to enjoy condemning him due to personal hatred, to not exaggerate and not to condemn him priavtely unless he fears him or does not want to create a machloket. He must intend leshem Shemayim to cause others to hate him so as not to learn from his actions. I cannot speak for the writer of the piece but I imagine that he does not even know the individual.
Hello, see Rambam Hilchot Melachim at the end of Chapter 3, Ran Derasha 11, Rema Choshen Mishpat 3, Avneui Nezer YD 312:46-52 and Mishpat Cohen (Rav Kook) 147 regarding the powers of the secular authorities. See also He’emek Devar Devarim 17:14 that the Am has the option of a representative democracy to carry out these powers (Abarbanel, if I remember correctly in his introduction to Parashat Shoftim, even states that it is far preferable to monarchy and also states that the people choose the judges of the batei din of three and twenty-three as they have the right to decide who will judge them. Israeli judges are chosen by a committee which includes the people’s representatives).
Sigh.
Avi: 14 is questionable. The perp feels that he is correct in terrorizing a “sinner” to dissuade him from his “evil ways”. He clearly feels he is a meritorious Kanoy and not evil. While deeply misguided, he does not meet the criteria of 14.
You misread 15. The Chofetz Chaim writes that he MUST intend a To’eles, which is questionable here. I think you confused ?? with ???.
I assume your second post was mistakenly addressed to me. I have intentionally avoided these issues altogehter.
Hello, you’re right about ??. However, convincing others not to supppoert these groups is definitely a toelet.As for his beliefs, all criminals think that they are doing the right thing according to there codes of behavior. Would you delete all of the references to, for example, Abe “Kid Twist” Reles’ career because of a takkanant kadmonim and the fact that he thought that he was ridding the world of “dirty rats”? He, in fact, told the Brooklyn DA that he always knew that Hashem exists and according to one story I read never carried out a “contract” on Shabbat and being that he was a Cohen never in an enclosed area. The criteria is that the actions are well-known to be prohibited. He is thus presumed to know just that either he does not care for one reason or another.
Avi K – Mr. Manipulater. This guy wasn’t proven (in Bais Din) to have committed any crimes. The fact that he was convicted in a Non-Bais Din does Not constitute a Kol. First go learn the Dinim and then come post. And being part of some group that some members do things wrong -doesn’t make him a guilty man. I’m not saying it’s a good idea to join the Sikrikim, but putting a guy in jail because he was found guilty in an Israeli courtroom is an Injustice acc. to the Torah, no matter how much you try and twist it!
Health.
Seriously.
Are there less than a dozen threads where you are not relentlessly taking more than one person to task over and over again?
I would normally not be so bold to confront, but since you are accustomed to “in your face” posting, I would like to make a suggestion that if someone holds a different view than you, it does not mean the person means anything personal, or that they didnt understand what you said, which sometimes is not as clear or accurately representative of what you are trying to say, believe it or not.
I know you are not shooting for the idea that if someone does not share a specific view of yours, that it must mean they just didnt get what you are talking about.
That would be a component of fascism.
: o lol
Well said BTGuy!
Health, kol haposel bemumo posel, Mr ManipulatOr!
Avi: “However, convincing others not to supppoert these groups is definitely a toelet”
Do you get the impression that there are a significnat number of sane people out there who need convincing of this. I am very, very skeptical that this is the author’s motive.
“The criteria is that the actions are well-known to be prohibited”
Now you put yourself in a catch-22. If attacking people whose level of tnius is slightly sub-par is “well-known to be assur”, there is no to’eles in printing it. If it is not well-known, then the perp is potentially shogeg and we may not talk about him.
The bottom line is that much of what is reported in (even frum) newspapers and news sites is an Issur of Lashon HaRa
moi aussi -“Health, kol haposel bemumo posel, Mr ManipulatOr!”
Wow you floored me! I actually wish I could manipulate s/o here. Almost every poster I encounter here is a Tzioni. I don’t know how people got influenced and by whom, but this guy Avi K is doing a great job of fooling or talking things into guys like you. So tell me -why are you a Tzioni? Did your parents raise you like this? Does the Israeli gov. pay you?
Health, I am neither a guy, nor a Tzioni, and I’m not being fooled by anyone. My parents of blessed memory, raised me with Jewish values. There is no financial exchange between me and the Israeli gov.
You sound like an intelligent person, and you have the gift of the written word. However, belittling people comes from ga’avah, which reflects insecurity. You don’t need to resort to name calling for conveying your message.
As someone else pointed out, you are relentlessly taking more than one person to task over and over again.
Listen to our message, treat people with respect, it will improve all your relationships.
Hello, who defines “sub-par”? While we re talking about toelet, do you
1. Even if it convinces one it is worthwhile.
2. Why do you dan the writer of the piece bechaf chov? Are you aware of what Chazal say about one who is choshed bekesherim? Not to mention LR and possibly hotzaat shem ra about him.
3. Do you really think that this will convince women to be more machmir? Have you ever thought that this might actually push people away from Tora?
Health, where do you get off make wild accusations about moi aussi’s source of income? It seems to me that you are a world-class motzi shem ra. BTW, name-caling is a cognitive bias (you can google it).
As for the Sikrik, he was caught on video tape and convicted according to mishpat hamelech – which has the force of Halacha.I suggest you go learn the sources I posted.
i dont really understand this deap halachik discussion, but Avi K apears to me exactly like the old proverbiale talmid chochom-maskil
I love how they use adjectives in there headlines, YWN is a real news site. News site or tabloid? You decide!
This isn’t the news section- it is the forums.
moi aussi -“Health, I am neither a guy, nor a Tzioni, and I’m not being fooled by anyone. My parents of blessed memory, raised me with Jewish values.”
So why are you defending him and attacking me? I’m the one with the Torah True Jewish values!
avi: your posts are becoming more and more unintelligible. could you please reread what i wrote and repost your reactions.
“I’m the one with the Torah True Jewish values!”
Really Health?
Your interpretation of the values set forth in the Torah include insulting anyone who doesn’t share your particular outlook on things all the way up to the point of claiming that Jews of other levels of observance are not worthy of being treated with respect. You consistently post mocking others, talking down to them, and implying that they are less Jewish than you.
I do not know you in person so I will not say anything about you, however I will state that your writings on this forum are about as far from “Torah True” as anything I have ever seen.
Calling what you post “Torah True” is a horrible insult to the Torah itself and those who follow in its ways. Your writings would be enough to make the Gedolim of our past cry and ask themselves how their teachings got so distorted to create such animosity.
Health, I don’t attack anyone, I defend the attacked. I did not take any sides in the discussion, I was addressing your attitude (name-calling) towards people who differ with you in opinion.
On the thread “Why are people still smoking?” I found the following:
Health says:
When someone here decides to give me a check or cash. I have no professional responsibilty to anyone here. I’m free here to state my own opinions, whether others agree with me or not!
Squeak responds:
You certainly are free to opine and disagree with others, I was referring to how you choose to do so. The trick that you learned as a med prof. is just as appropriate in a non-professional setting. Treating people respectfully shouldn’t depend on being paid to do so.
Heaslth, read your post addressed to me together with mine and you will understand.
Avi: are you again addressing me as “Health”?
“While we re talking about toelet, do you”
what does this mean?
1 No. absolutely not. if 99.9% of the readers do not derive any to’eles from it, it cannot relistically be termed to’eles.
3 i agree and made no pretense of supporting the perp. I merely challenged the propriety of reporting it.
ConcernedMember -“I do not know you in person so I will not say anything about you, however I will state that your writings on this forum are about as far from “Torah True” as anything I have ever seen.
Calling what you post “Torah True” is a horrible insult to the Torah itself and those who follow in its ways. Your writings would be enough to make the Gedolim of our past cry and ask themselves how their teachings got so distorted to create such animosity.”
It’s funny but you only have the Chutzpa to comment about me!
Even though you call yourself Concerned Member -the only concern you have is to correct me. How come you are Not the least bit concerned with all the Krum Dayos that are posted here? How come you are not the least bit concerned about the non-stop bashing & hatred of Charedim that happened even here in the CR of the Yeshiva World, after the spitting incident in Bais Shemesh?
If you were concerned about these -I think you would have posted at least once about these issues!
Your post reminds me of what the Concervatives did following Rubashkin’s conviction. They made a Hechsher Tzedek. The food doesn’t have to be Kosher as long as e/o practices ethical behavior. You don’t care about all the things said which is against the Torah, as long as everybody talks nicely!
moi aussi -“Health, I don’t attack anyone, I defend the attacked. I did not take any sides in the discussion, I was addressing your attitude (name-calling) towards people who differ with you in opinion.”
I don’t really care whether you like my attitude or not!
Your parents Always told you speak nicely. This is Not always the case. If s/o is speaking Kneged the Torah -you can be derogatory.
Maybe you think every Jew has the right to their opinion, but this is Not the case. Judaism is Not a democracy! Your parents should have taught you more about Daaos Kozvos!
And btw, this poster is not a weakling & attacks others plenty himself -he doesn’t need an Amazon Woman to defend him!
Avi K -“Health, where do you get off make wild accusations about moi aussi’s source of income? It seems to me that you are a world-class motzi shem ra. BTW, name-caling is a cognitive bias (you can google it).”
It was a rhetorical question and you know it!
Actually all you do is speak Motzay Shem Ra – especially about this guy who was sent to prison!
“As for the Sikrik, he was caught on video tape and convicted according to mishpat hamelech – which has the force of Halacha.I suggest you go learn the sources I posted.”
You base your opinions on lies and this is one of your main ways how you manipulate ignorant posters here! There is no video of him commiting any crime. He admits he was there at the demonstration, but says he acted in self-defense! The guy came out swinging and he defended himself! There was many corraborating
witnesses for him and not one for the store owner. Even if they (Medina) could have a Din of a Malchus -that wouldn’t give them permission to put innocent people in jail. They act like a dictatorship, not like a democracy! But you are so blinded by your Zionist ideals -you can’t possibly see the Truth!
Health says:
“I don’t really care whether you like my attitude or not!
Your parents Always told you speak nicely. This is Not always the case. If s/o is speaking Kneged the Torah -you can be derogatory.
Maybe you think every Jew has the right to their opinion, but this is Not the case. Judaism is Not a democracy! Your parents should have taught you more about Daaos Kozvos!”
I wish you would leave my parents out of this. Allow them “Lehenot Mizif HaSchina” in Gan Eden. Our parents did the best they could, I don’t blame your parents for your behaviour, you have bechira (unless you’re a koton or a shoteh).
The fact that you don’t care what I (and others) think of your attitude, is part of the same arrogance you manifest in your debates. Divrei Chachamim Benachat Nishmaim, you can defend De’os Kozvos (bogus teachings) without attacking/name-calling people.
If you don’t change your attitude Mr Health (is it Dr? Prof? Rabbi?), you will alienate your family and friends, and you will be a very lonely person. If you want to endear yourself to others, treat people with respect (as per Torah instructions).
Don’t ignore our mussar, heed our advice, I do care.
Health, you are so blinded by your hatred for the Medina that you defend terrorists.
BTW, Health, do you know the origin of the name of this organization? The Sikrikin were Goyim who were given stolen Jewish land in Eretz Yisrael in lieu of a pension for their service in the Roman army. That says it all.
moi aussi -“If you don’t change your attitude Mr Health (is it Dr? Prof? Rabbi?), you will alienate your family and friends, and you will be a very lonely person.”
I already am; so give me another reason to change.
Avi K -“Health, you are so blinded by your hatred for the Medina that you defend terrorists.”
I haven’t defended “terrorists”! As a matter of fact, I don’t care too much about this Sikrikim group and I don’t condone their actions. But I believe in democracy & justice and e/o is innocent until Proven guilty, even groups you don’t like. He was Not Proven guilty in the Israeli court! They found him guilty because of the store owner’s word. Not only was it one word against the other, the accused had many witnesses for his side.
So this is a Miscarriage of Justice. It’s a bloody shame that people who supposedly live by the Torah or even those that don’t but supposedly live by democracy, defend this outrageous behavior from the dictatorship that we have in Israel!
Just for information purposes, there’s no “group” called sikrikim, there are many groups and sectors, Gur, Belz, Satmar Toldos, Viznitz etc, there are groups like neturei Karta, establisments like rabanut, Edah charedit, Agudah, voting parties and fractions, there is no group called “sikrikim”, it’s a slur the secular media, or collaborators would throw on any frum person/people they dislike.
Avi: can we agree that today’s headlines are blatant and unmitigated LH. Regardless of ones opinion of the Eidah HaChareidis, the charges are currently unsubstantiated, there is little to no To’eles, and it is certainly speading news that was previously unknown.
Hello, I agree that one cannot convict someone in the media. On the other hand, a public trial is considered a protection against railroading. This right was put into the US constitution because of memories of the English “Star Chamber” where political prisoners were convicted in secret trials. This is the fault of those reporters who take sides, mainly to sell their wares but also because of a group identification about which muchpsychologic material has been written.
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