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Yekke2, interesting that you quote that Gemara. I see two relevant points:
1) We make judgments on who are “elyonim” and who are “tachtonim”.
2) Those judgments often are not reflected in the Olam Haemes.
DY When I read some of what I have seen here, I can’t classify it as less than chutzpah, to arrogate HKBH’s powers of judgement and assessment, to assume the value of all of one’s mitzvos versus the value of even one done by someone less outwardly observant. This even without my concern about half of what it means to be a Jew being ignored. It IS chutzpah to make such assumptions. HKBH measures you against your own potential for doing mitzvos, not against the observance of anyone else, lesser or greater. We are instructed to fight against our Yetzer Horah. Our innate nature is to be competitive, even to measure ourselves against other Jews, or other people of all kinds. But HKBH wants us to be the best fullest realization of our own potential for avodas hashem as individuals, and our potential to act on and DO what he expects from us collectively.
You know who is superior? Someone like the Chief Rabbi of South Africa, Rabbi Goldstein, who not only has managed to gather a majority of ALL the Jews of South Africa of all stripes to keep a full shabbos together, but who has also demonstrated an ohr lagoyim there on many occasions, and who has reached out to dozens of Jewish communities across the planet to replicate the incredible kiddush hashem they did in SA.
If you want to demonstrate a superior Jew, he is an exemplar.
Yichusdik,
In the first paragraph of that post, you call it a chutzpah to make judgments.
In the second paragraph, you make a judgment.
Kashya seifa areisha.
yekke2,
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While I am not sure of the exact meaning of this (and no underlings are sure), and I try not to judge, something about that quote might teach us not to think we are G-dly or have an iota of correctness in any superiority and judgmentalism!
Whatever we know, theres way more we dont know about the ways and “thoughts” of Hashem.
Fair enough, DY. You are right. I’ll revise to say that Rav Goldstein seems to me to be someone I look up to as an example of the best qualities of an individual and a part of a distinctive nation that I could aspire to.
OK, and I don’t want to make it a competition between those who excel at zikui harabim and those who excel at personal avodas Hashem. They’re both important. Not to detract from R’ Goldstein in any way (truthfully, I’m not very familiar with him or his work, although I did see an article), but not everyone is in a position to do what he did.
I once heard a kashya b’shem R’ Moshe Feinstein zt’l.
We say in birchas K”S, “lishmoa, lilmod, ul’lamed”. Lishmoa and lilmod applies to all, but how can we say l’lamed? Not everyone is a rebbe!
He answered that every one is in a position to teach by example. If I daven properly, learn b’hasmadah, act with respect towards others, am honestcin business, etc., people see this and are inspired to emulate it.
At the same time we can admire and seek to emulate those who are able to accomplish for klal Yisroel on a large scale and in a visible manner, I don’t think we can overlook or underestimate what a person can accomplish not only for himself, but for the klal, just by living his personal life the way Hashem wants him to.
According to your own approach, we shouldn’t view ourselves as superior to a non frum or non ehrliche Yid either.”
Please re-read what I posted. I never said or implied that whatsoever. In the case of someone non-ehrliche whether outwardly observant or not, I do think that person is of low-quality and a phony. Someone who is non-frum can only be judged properly by Hashem. It is not typically for us to make assumptions about that person, particularly if in all respects he is a mensch. Though he may be lacking in an aspect of his Avoda, so is the person who davens with a minyan three times a day, learns yomam v’layla, follows every possible chumrah, and then lies and cheats to get undeserved food stamps, or other benefits of stealing (yes, STEALING) from the government, or who commits other acts of Chillul Hashem. Neither Jew is fully doing his avoda. We just tend to look the other way when it is someone who otherwise appears frum.
There are all kinds of superior actions and inferior ones. It behooves us to leave the cheshbon to the Only One Who actually Knows our hearts, to decide if we merit such nomenclature as “Superior Jew.” Most of us are pretty beinoniyim in lots of areas, and could do with some improvement. I know that I could, for certain. I think that a superior person, never believes him/herself to be so. He or she is always reaching to be better and do better. I know that sounds hokey, but it’s how I feel.
Oomis, you wrote, “The poshuteh Yid might be sitting right next to the Rosh Yeshivah in Olam Haba, for reasons known only to Hashem.”
Why wouldn’t you extend that to non frum people and even non ehrliche people? Is it possible for us to know what another’s nisyonos are?
We make judgments in this world, both for the good and for the bad. Often, we need to, and I’ve pointed to some examples of why we sometimes need to. Still, the Gemara tells us that despite trying to make judgments to the best of our ablities, only Hashem knows the full truth, and in the next world, we will see some things (maybe everything) at least somewhat differently – olam hafuch raisi.
I am merely questioning why you are drawing the line at frum and ehrlich, and assuming that at that point we do know the full story. Maybe for reasons known only to Hashem, the non frum, non ehrliche person will sit next to the frum ehrliche one.
CR10,
I think you may be confusing the idea of judging a person’s worth with judging behaviors and actions. Only G-d can do the former, but G-d commmands us to do the latter.
The problem is that if I don’t have a TV and you do, I may feel superior to you. And if you are a learner and I’m not, you may feel superior to me.
So should we all get TVs and stop learning so that nobody feels inferior? This is not kindergarten. Religious observance seems to be a touchy subject, so let’s remove it from the equation. Billy is a better piano player than Bob, and Bob can draw better than Billy. Is Billy a better person than Bob, or Bob a better person than Billy? We don’t know, but if Joe wants to become a better artist, he should learn piano from Billy and drawing from Bob, not vice versa.
The point is not to feel superior to any other Jew even if we keep more mitzvot
The point of humility is not to think that we’re equal to everyone else, because we’re not. The point is to realize that our talents and opportunities come from Hashem, not from ourselves.
Does this clear it up? I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.
According to the Ramban everyone is equal.
That is clearly not what the Ramban said.
Why wouldn’t you extend that to non frum people and even non ehrliche people? Is it possible for us to know what another’s nisyonos are?”
Ok, I will accept your point.
Why wouldn’t you extend that to non frum people and even non ehrliche people? Is it possible for us to know what another’s nisyonos are?”
Ok, I will accept your point.
Oomis, I know it’s hard for me to concede, and you did it twice! 🙂
Not intentionally, I ASSURE you(haaarrrumph!). 🙂
If Reuvain is an Oved Hashem then certainly he has good middos, and if he has good middos he wont consider himself superior to anyone, we need to work on ourselves and not judge others, if Reuvain does not have good middos and haughtily thinks he is better than his neighbors is he really an Oved Hashem??
if Reuvain does not have good middos and haughtily thinks he is better than his neighbors is he really an Oved Hashem??
Great question, Goq. I think you answered it yourself when you mentioned working on yourself.
So, I think the answer is that even if someone is haughty, but is working on improving himself, he is an oved Hashem.
CR10,
You are changing around what I said.
There seemed to be a clear implication in your posts that you believe there is a correlation between increased observance (e.g., chumros or full time learning) and feeling superior to others.
I said WE shouldn’t feel superior.
I can agree with that statement regarding feelings. It is clear from our tradition that arrogance is a trait that Hashem finds particularly repugnant.
Do you think it is possible, however, for a Jew to uphold something he values when interacting with another Jew who doesn’t uphold it, yet without feeling superior? For example, a child of a non-TV household coming home and asking his parents to buy a TV because his friend gets to watch all of these great shows. What does the parent say? Or getting a meal invitation from someone who does things in the kitchen that you do not think are permissible to eat.
Also, do you think it is possible to have a disagreement on an issue of religious observance without one side feeling like the other is looking down on them (whether or not the other side is)?
According to the Ramban everyone is equal.
I do not see this from what you have quoted. Only Hashem can determine the value of a person.
When Shaul Hamelech went to war with Amalek, he allowed some of the animals, spoils, and the enemy king (Agag) to survive, in violation of the mitzvah to completely eradicate Amalek. Shmuel Hanavi’s rebuke of Shaul Hamelech had an interesting component to it – he accused the king of sinning because he was small in his own eyes. In other words, it seems that Shaul Hamelech believed that since everybody is equal, than who was he to judge what his soldiers did? This was misplaced humility. He wasn’t equal, he was king, and he had a responsibility to judge his soldiers’ behavior, rebuke them, and lift them up. Ultimately his failure to do so damaged the authority of his kingship beyond repair.
(Disclosure: I have not learned this Gemara inside, so others feel free to add/correct) In Maseches Sota, Rava says that someone who is prideful deserves to be excommunicated, and that someone who has no pride also deserves to be banned. Rashi comments that the latter is true because, without any pride, nobody would take him seriously or listen to his rebuke.
Maskim, but you would have to specify that in the question, rather than seemingly assume that nobody afflicted by ga’avah works on it.
As with many threads, I can refrain from posting and suffice with simply following the discussion, because I see DY doing an admirable job of keeping it sensible and Torah-true.
Point taken thank you 🙂
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