Joining Chabad

Chossid: “Mods nice for checking to zatzal.
Can you also change next time someone says the Rebbe is “dead” to the Rebbe “past away”?.
Out of respect please.”

Major difference. One is untrue. The other is true just not an expression that you’re happy with.

SHY: “A common theme on some of these threads is, “Why can’t I directly ask Hashem for my needs, and of what use is a Rebbe, who needs a go between, I have a straight line with Hashem”
The different variations of those Taanos have been around since the dawn of Chassidus, some more elequently expressed, many less so. This is what the Rebbe is answering.”

If that would be true then there would be no need to have a sicha explaining atzmus in a guf and a rebbe not being a memutza. A simple answer that “a tzaddik’s prayers on your behalf are more likely to be accepted” would suffice, and their would never have been any room for anyone to make a mistake with the atzmus in a guf concept. A mistake that can, and occasionally does, veer into kefira (Who remembers the “Who Elokeinu? The rebbe, that’s who!”) would never have been justifiable by anyone.

Quote “And do you remember the story of yoshke/S”T/Mendelsohn/Geiger etc? If someone being called a kofer is a proof that he is not, we should all have xmas trees!
Just because B”H Klal Yisroel decided that the Rambam was not a kofer does not mean that no one should be called a kofer.”

What I was trying to say just flew way over your head
_____
The one who is warping things here in mefoshim is you. we both clearly saw sdei chemed/abarbanel and you, that can’t take a loss are twisting it in such a way that even I couldn’t do
Even if I tried

Anyusername: “(The term supposed was used in the same way I assumed u use the term apikorses – just trying to bring out your point in a very strong way)”

I just realized what you were saying with that, and I don’t believe a word you’re saying! The entire time you were trying to prove that it is accepted and expected practice to think that one’s rebbe is Moshiach, and now you say disingenuously that when you said a talmid “is supposed to” you meant something else.

Does anyone out there believe him?

Anyusername to me: “The one who is warping things here in mefoshim is you. we both clearly saw sdei chemed/abarbanel and you, that can’t take a loss are twisting it in such a way that even I couldn’t do
Even if I tried”

I saw that the Sdei Chemed did NOT say that you’re supposed to claim that your rebbe is Moshiach, yet you wrote that that’s what he said. Quote please, and prove me wrong.

I saw that the Abarbanel did NOT say that the talmidim claimed their rebbes were Moshiach. What did you see? You claim he writes that Moshiach can come from the dead. Maybe he does. I didn’t deny it because I haven’t learnt the entire sefer. I don’t believe you’ve learnt it at all because you quoted an Artscroll as a source. Quote please to prove yourself right.

I said, many times, that Sanhedrin 98b and Rashi and the Maharsho there, which you cited, gives you no right to claim that anyone who has died can be Moshiach other than Doniel. You rant and rave and tell me I can’t learn gemoro. Fine. Show me where it says it. NOTE: from the Gemoro, Rashi and/or the Maharsho there, which is what you quoted. Don’t bring me other sources. Although I will be grateful if you can qote a source that any other dead person can be Moshiach.

DaasYochid
I ziya because that’s what we have done in the past g generations, and the Rebbe did that to on the frierdiker Rebbe but those that write shlita are not committing kifira, because it’s exactly from these quotes that they say, Please don’t pick and choose.

*write

@rso
1 a. When you have an argument with someone your supposed to argue on the same thing –
I think I said 3 times about the abarbanel and you keep arguing on a diff point that I never brought up.
b. Just to make it simple since anything i say you will disagree with so I’ll just quote from the artscroll which I assume everyone here holds of
“Begining of Footnote 42: If the Messiah is currently alive, he is certainly Rebbi. If the Messiah is someone who has a ready died, he is Daniel. (Abarbanel explains that it is possible for the Messiah to be among the resurrected (Yeshuos Meshicho lyun 2 ch. 1).)”
the abarbanel says nothing about being doniel rather about being from the dead
The point is that there are opinions that say moshiach can come from the dead.

2 let me make this a little bit simpler (the supposed term)
וכן הוא בכל דור ודור צ”ל אחד מוכשר שמא יזכו (ועפי”ז כתבו ג”כ תלמידי הארי”זל שבימיו הי׳האריז”ל

How I think it’s translated
In every generation there is someone capable of being moshiach in case the yidden are meritus/זוכה (or זכו however you want to translate this)
Based on this this, the talmidim of the arizal wrote that in the days of the arizal it was the arizal.

What I take from this is that they assumed that moshiach is the greatest person in that generation and they said Who is greater then the a arizal – if they felt there was someone greater then the arizal they would have said that it was that person

= I think the rebbe is the greatest person in our generation so if I’m looking for a candidate for moshiach I think that it should be him – the greatest person in our generation.

You on the other hand are not a lubavicher so you think that someone else was greater then the rebbe I’m ok with that -everyone has there own opinion. So I would assume that you say that that person is moshiach.

What?

I would almost buy these justifications for deification IF it was done when the most recent Lubavitcher Rebbe was alive, and all chassidim did it. However, all of this cropped up after the most recent Lubavitcher Rebbe died, and these are nothing but post-facto distortions and justifications for deification that go against the mesorah of klal yisroel and the 13 ikkarim. And it’s why the Rambam gave them to us- so no mater how much someone tries to be metaher this sheretz, we know it’s a sheretz. We know Yoshke wasn’t moshiach despite his claim of G-d in a body, we know others who try that claim aren’t.

You guys liked what I said so much but had to argue so you found a few words to argue on.

Whichever way you slice it, you have an answer. whether be is alive or not.

This is where this line comes in: for those that want answers there are answers, for those that dont want they will never find no matter what you say.

I know this type of line was said a bunch of times on this thread but now everyone can see it clearly

Nobody liked what you said but needed to argue, they were explaining why it was wrong. But instead of admitting that, you pretend they are picking on a few words. No, they explained pretty clearly what was wrong with it. But you are not only willing to acknowledge that they had a point, you are even denying that they responded! Thats a bit bizaarre.
It also has a name. Denial. Yes, you certainly dont want answers, you wont even admit there are questions, but i have witnessed here the most bizarre denial from you and CS before you.

Anyusername: ““Begining of Footnote 42: If the Messiah is currently alive, he is certainly Rebbi. If the Messiah is someone who has a ready died, he is Daniel. (Abarbanel explains that it is possible for the Messiah to be among the resurrected (Yeshuos Meshicho lyun 2 ch. 1).)”
the abarbanel says nothing about being doniel rather about being from the dead”

Once again you have either intentionally or unintentionally misunderstood what YOU have quoted. The gemoro says (quoting your post above) “If the Messiah is someone who has a ready died, he is Daniel”. Note, only Doniel, no one else who has died. Then quoting Artscroll (so I was right in concluding that you haven’t seen the Abarbanel inside!) you have “Abarbanel explains that it is possible for the Messiah to be among the resurrected”. Abarbanel may simply be ANSWERING how the Gemoro can say that Doniel will be Moshiach as Doniel has already died, so he EXPLAINS that although Doniel has died he can still be Moshiach once resurrected.

From the above there is absolutely no indication that the Abarbanel allows the possibility of someone else who has died to be Moshiach.

Now I haven’t read the entire sefer or even the entire chapter, but I’ve clearly read the more of the original than you have, and I haven’t found where the Abarbanel even hints that someone other than Doniel who has died may be Moshiach. Maybe he says it – I don’t know. But you say with certainty that he says it and I would like to see it inside in the original. So please find where it is clear cut and quote the original.

“The point is that there are opinions that say moshiach can come from the dead.”

I’m still waiting for an actual quote of some of those opinions. I’m not saying they aren’t out there, I just want to see it in the original Loshon Kodesh.

I can believe I missed this:

SHY asked “Where does a person develop such a deeply rooted animosity toward a Tzaddik, and an entire Tzibbur of Yereim U’shleimim??”

The topic of discussion is WHETHER the “entire Tzibbur” with their views can be considered “Yereim U’shleimim”, so your criticism doesn’t really apply.

Anyusername: “This is where this line comes in: for those that want answers there are answers, for those that dont want they will never find no matter what you say.”

We takkeh don’t want answers. We want you to give up your crazy heretical ideas and see the truth.

You could use your statement just as well if you were a xian trying to convince us to convert c”v.

Rso: Better Question: What did Talmidim of the Lubavitcher Rebbe do, considering he is NOT a ben acher ben from Dovid Hamelech.

were not gonna get into if the Rebbe fit the catogory or not because thats a matter of opinion which you disagree with so no point in going there.
but let me ask you like this
how were they able to say to say the arizal was moshiach did he fit the rambams critiria?
did the teacher of the rama fit the critiria?
did all the other people that were thought to be moshiach fit the full critiria?

Quote “That is a very big jump from the quote. The Sdei Chemed says that in every generation there is someone muchshar – fit – to be the Moshiach, and you somehow think that that gives the right to any person/group to choose whoever they think is the greatest of that generation. But the Sdei Chemed doesn’t even say that his talmidim held he was the greatest of the generation. Don’t forget we are talking of the generation of the Beis Yosef and other gedolei Yisroel of such great stature.”

i think any normal person assumes moshiach is the greatest person and not some beggar on the street (although it is possible).
And you still never explained why they said their teacher is moshiach and please explain the line i quoted.

again, you’re not proving to me that what im saying is against pshat you’re just basing it on the fact that im learning it different than you, which is fine – we both have an opinion. but to say that it is against pshat is wrong to say.

we have different opinions on a lot of things. but to say everyone disagrees with me i think your wrong.

“You’re claiming he’s in this generation, i.e. alive, and at the same time, that he’s not alive, but can be moshiach even though he’s not alive”

It’s called hedging their bets. Just in case they’re wrong about him being alive, they can still be right about him being moshiach. Their belief system has so many fail-safes, which is what makes it so impossible to deprogram.

It’s just like the Rambam so clearly says, “l’hatchilah, moshiach should be alive. But, if he dies, b’dieved he can still be moshiach if you believe hard enough.” I’m paraphrasing of course 😉

His generation ended 25 years ago. Single girls from when he died are now bubbies. You are now having the second generation of Lubavitchers who only know the Rebbe as an oyhel, not as a real person.
At some point they need to accept that they got played and move on with the next Rebbe.

Anyusername: “how were they able to say to say the arizal was moshiach did he fit the rambams critiria?
did the teacher of the rama fit the critiria?
did all the other people that were thought to be moshiach fit the full critiria?”

I would assume that the answer to all three is yes. Had they not been thought to have fit the criteria their talmidim would not have thought they were moshiach (I haven’t heard that the Rema’s rebbe was assumed to be moshiach, but that could be just plain ignorance on my part.)

As I’ve written before, the groups that you have mentioned weren’t baseball fans who decided that their team was the best simply because that was the one they rooted for. Comparing your ridiculous proofs that your rebbe was/is moshiach to the unknown reasons behind the assumption of the Ari z”l’s talmidim is denigrating to them.

Anyhow, how could they have thought that their rebbe was moshiach when Beis Moshiach = 770 in gematria, and their rebbes in all likelihood didn’t live in a house numbered 770?

Anyusername: “again, you’re not proving to me that what im saying is against pshat you’re just basing it on the fact that im learning it different than you, which is fine – we both have an opinion. but to say that it is against pshat is wrong to say”

NO! NO! NO! I am saying that if you say that the gemoro in Sanhedrin, and the Rashi there, allows you to say that any person OTHER THAN DONIEL who has died is moshiach, you don’t know how to translate. We’re not talking about a machlokes. We are talking about you not listening to what Rashi is saying, either intentionally or because you don’t know how to translate.

I’ll do it for you here (sorry to all those who can translate Rashi on their own for the length of this post), and if you still have trouble getting it maybe you can get someone to help you:
אי מן חייא הוא כגון רבינו הקדוש
[Quote from the Gemoro:] If he is from the living, like Rabbeinu Hakadosh
אם משיח מאותן שחיים עכשיו
[Rashi’s explanation:] If moshiach is of those that are currently alive
ודאי היינו רבינו הקדוש
he is certainly Rabbeinu Hakadosh
דסובל תחלואים וחסיד גמור הוה כדאמרינן בבבא מציעא (פה א)
who suffers illnesses, and he was a complete chossid, as we say in Bovo Metzia 85a.
ואם היה מאותן שמתו כבר
And if he was from those who have already died
היה דניאל איש חמודות
it was Doniel Ish Chamudos
שנדון ביסורין בגוב אריות וחסיד גמור היה
who was judged with tribulations in the lions’ den, and he was a complete chossid.
והאי כגון לאו דווקא
[Rashi now clarifies how, according to this explanation, the Gemoro uses the term “כגון”, which means “like”, when the Gemoro is in fact referring to two specific people and not anyone “like” them:] This “כגון” is not being used in a precise manner.
לישנא אחרינא
Another explanation [of the Gemoro]
כגון רבינו הקדוש
“Like Rabbeinu Hakadosh”
כלומר אם יש דוגמתו בחיים היינו רבינו הקדוש
Meaning to say, if there is a similarity to moshiach among the living [i.e. if there is someone alive (when the statement was made) to whom moshiach can be compared] it is Rabbeinu Hakadosh.
ואם דוגמא הוא למתים היינו כגון דניאל איש חמודות
And if moshiach is to be compared to someone dead, then he is like Doniel Ish Chamudos.
Now you have two choices:
1. Show me where and how I have mistranslated, or failing that
2. Show me how saying anyone who has died other than Doniel can be moshiach fits in with that Rashi, as you said it does.

BBO: “the lubavitcher attended his lectures in university and later remarked that he especially enjoyed his lectures”

Where did he attend his lectures? Did he write or talk about it publicly?

QUOTE “I would assume that the answer to all three is yes”
I agree, i think the same way and i feel that the rebbe also does.
Remember WE cant argue on the arizal and beis yosef as we dont know them nor can we argue on anyone else but its a matter of opinion.
AS I SAID MANY TIME THIS IS NOT SOMETHING WE CAN ARGUE ON THIS IS A MATTER OF OPINION

you say i cant prove it to YOU, im not looking to prove it to you. you had questions which i tried answering, if you dont understand it ask somone else.

now regarding the abbarbanel you can look in the makor i told you (where he brings an explanation regarding the story of the “aravi” (the story of moshiach’s birth) and at the end he says:
ואל יקשה עליך שיהי’ מלך המשיח מן המתים כי כבר נסתפקו על זה בפ’ החלק ואמר רב אסי אם מן חייא הוא כגון רבינו הקדוש אם מן מתייא הוא כגון דניאל איש חמודות
i will explain a bit but you wont take anything i say anyway so go look it up yourself.
throughout the entire explanation he is trying to explain the story. and in middle he says that moshiach will pass away and then get up with techiyas hameisim (nothing to do with doniel yet) then he bring the proof for what he says and brings the gemoro in sanhedrin.

so no, he is not trying to explain this gemoro in sanhedrin, he is trying to explain something else and bring this gemoro in sanhedrin as proof that moshiach can come from the dead.

“did he write about it or announce it publicly” . i honestly dont know. i saw it on chabad.org written by tzvi freeman. i think you can contact him via chabad.org for a source. petty doubting doesnt help your cause and just raises serious doubts on yourself.

“according to recent research by menachem friedman”. correct. according to recent research by menachem friedman. by menachem friedman. menachem friedman. and who is this” tzaddik” menachem friedman? hmmm…