Joining Chabad

🍫Syag Lchochma
Thanks for speaking up and saying it’s wrong to accuse us for davaning to the Rebbe.
The thing is not only it’s not true, it’s outrageous for someone to think that we do, because the more you learn about Hashem and the way he creates the world every second……. The more you understand how the only person you should serve is Hashem himself.

The question is who spreads these lies together with a bunch of other ones about Chabad?.

“however, to say ” with the rebbes help” in place of “bezras Hashem” (and other similar switcharoos) and that IS said and is definitely very much attributing Hashems kochoc to a person.”

We don’t ח”ו replace Hashem with Rebbe ח”ו.
Hashem gave a tzdik certain choichois to give brochois, and one of thing a Rebbe does is that worries about his chassidish…
We say בעזרת ה’, when someone says that the Rebbe will help it’s not replacing Hashem ח”ו in any shape or form, we are just saying that the Rebbe will ask by Hashem to give us beochios. The only one that can give a refuah is Hashem himself, but tzdikim have the power to drawdown brochois. That’s why we go to rabbeim/tzdikim to ask for brochois, and daven by their kaver, Not that they’re Hashem ח”ו, rather that they have the power to drawn down the brochois from Hashem. Since they have a heilikeh neshoma.

“You keep telling him to stop saying l”h. Why are you not understanding that if *his* own rabbeim tell him that chabad practices a”z, then reagrdless of what YOUR opinion is, he is *obligated* to speak badly about it to deter others from buying into it. You should not be having trouble understanding that”

I think I have explained myself already, but I will try again.

First if you want people not to come to Lubavitche you should explain to them how special he is that he grew up litvish, (it’s basics of yeddishkiet that if you want to feel special, you bring up yourself and not put down others.) And that is the source of the persons problem, he feels that the litvishe outlook one life is not positive ect. So if you want to him not to come to Chabad, you go to the root of the problem, and explain how special the litviss derech is. And not put down Lubavitche. And if you can’t explain it to him then I guess there’s a problem.

Second If LerntminTayrah quotes a godols words with explanation why we are violating the 13 ekrei hoamuna, ovid avoda zorah, Lev tohor, compare to Christians, and all the rest of the nonsense taeinois that he has, then i can’t have teinois on the the godol, (whether I agree or not), but if he doesn’t quote a godol and a source with an explanation, and can’t answer my questions then he is saying straight out loshen hara (which it doesn’t look like he cares about) or he got to take back his teinois. (Which he hasn’t yet)
Hope you understand, just trying to be reasonable.

Just because you hear radical stuff about Lubavitche it doesn’t means it’s true, not every Joe schmo can have an opinion, and second if you hear something you don’t like it’s only normal if you are sincere to ask about it and find out exactly what it’s means, and not come up with your own conclusions, rather go and ask a well respected Lubavitcher for explanation.

There is so many leis about chabad (like you yourself see) and you should think twice before you post a comment online that stays there forever, tat is loshen hara.
It’s a terrible synonym כל המספר לשון הרע כאילו כופר בעיקר.

I hope you understand.

That’s exactly the problem, how you misconstrue everything, you know he didn’t mean Hashem is person. No one in Chabad believe I any sort of kfirah nor say anything that sounds like kfirah, if you lechatchila have a bias irrational hate against Chabad or any group, you’ll find a way to twist everything.

Dropping by for a second.

@ Chossid

“Just because you hear radical stuff about Lubavitche it doesn’t means it’s true”

Are you serious? This isn’t a matter of some unfortunate souls who have bought into some urban legend. People are bothered by things they know from personal experiences. Many people. Many experiences.

Among other things (in no particular order) it is not ok

to attempt to whitewash statements like “Let’s do Mitzvos to make the Rebbe happy” or “Let’s do this Mitzva like the Rebbe commanded” or “The Rebbe should help us” ect.

to think it is perfectly fine to stick pictures of the last Lubavitcher Rebbe (and only his picture) in every room of the house and children’s strollers on the grounds of יהיו עיניך רואות את מוריך

to take isolated quotes from the NH out of content to claim that Rav Chaim Volozhiner is basing the NH on the Tanya

to try and pass off as normative Jewish thought and practice the fixation on the possibility of ones Rav / Rebbe being Moshiach to the extent found today in Chabbad.

to make the laughable claim that the objection to declaring a false moshiach is an innovation of the maskilim

to keep asking, with innocent wide eyed wonder, for names of Gedolim who came out publicly against the last Lubavitcher Rebbe when such names and their respective statements have been provided by multiple posters on multiple past threads and are publically available to anyone who care to run a google search.
.

רואים מכל הנכתב שהשנאה מקולקלת השורה. ולכך כל מה שיענו לא יספיק. ולכך אולי מטס שלא נגיב אך דא עקא מוציאים שם רע על עדה מישראל וומזלזלים בכבוד ארזי הלבנון אדירים התורה לדורותיהם ואסור לשתוק.
אלו המכונים מתנגדים תמיד טענו החסידים אינם על פי תורה. ברם הווארט של החת”ס שחדש אסור מן התורה בה בשעה שהוא מצטט מספר התניא. ובעל בת היא קדמו בזמן ובמעלה. טענת ש”צ ימ”ש היה בהתחלה בה בשעה שאלו שלחמו ומתחו הפראנקיסטים ימ”ש היה הבעש”ט לתלמידיו.
אלו שנהיו חסידיו היו מביניהם מגדולי הדורות ממלא מקומו המגידהגדול ממעזריטש שהיה חברותא של בפני יהושע ורבי חיים רפפורט בתולדות יעקב יוסף ועוד.
תורת בעל התניא כל זמן שלא ידעו דזמה ממנו אפילו הגר”א אמר שרק מלאך אלקים צבא-ות יכול לכתבו ואף הדפיסו בי”ד שקלאוו וגירי דילהו הלכות תלמוד תורהשלו. ועוד ועוד ובזמן הצ”צ ר’יצחק מוואלאזין עבד יד אחת אתו. ובזמן הרבי רש”ב ר’ חיים בריסקר עבד אתו וגם החפץ חיים ועד כדי כך שפעם נזף במאן דהו שדיבר נגד הרבי באמרו שמי שמדבר נגדו כאילו מדבר משה רבינו ועוד… נמשיך מחר מקוצר הזמן וה’ יברך את עמו בשלום. ש

רבי שלום שכנא (אבי אדמו”ר הצמח צדק) היה מגזע של המצודת דוד, שהיה צאצא של דוד המלך, בן אחר בן.

המקור לכך הוא הרב ישעיה הורוויץ (בן הרב אשר יחזקאל, בן הרב ישעיה שנשא לאשה את בת אחותו של אדמו”ר הצ”צ, בספרו ‘עדן ציון’ עמ’ קסא.): “שמעתי מא”א זלה”ה, אשר זקנינו [אבי אביו של הצ”צ] ה”ר נח, היה שם כינוי משפחתו אלטשולער כי היה מגזע הרה”ג ר’ יחיאל הלל בן הרב ר’ דוד אלטשולער מק”ק יאברוב אשר אסף פירושי אביו על נ”ך והוסיף עליהם מחכמתו והיו לאחדים בידו בשם מצודת ציון ומצודת דוד”. עכ”ל.
“פירושו “מגזע:
שהוא היה בן דודו של המצודת דוד או בדומה, וזהו כוונתו “שהיה מגזע בעל המצודת דוד”. ולפי זה נמצא שהוא גם כן היה בן אחר בן לדוד המלך, כמו המצודת דוד.

you know he didn’t mean Hashem is person

I’m aware that it wasn’t intentional, but still feel it needed to be corrected.

Chossid, Rav Hershel Shachter’s opinion on Chabad can be heard in his wonderful lecture on segulos and superstitions which is easily available online.

All you have to do is google “daven to rebbe” and you will come up with people who say that, forget about my sources.

All you have to do is google “rebbe god”.
And no, saying der rebbe vet hefn means Rebbe as God. It’s using Rebbe as intermediary, the EXACT thing the Rambam says was early avoda zara, and what the meforshim say the mistake of the eigel was. Chabad goes back thousands of years to the maaseh eigel. The Jews knew Hashem created the world, just though they needed an intermediary.

For any chabadsker who is willing to answer:
1. What was the question that the Rebbe in 1979 wanted to answer with “atzmus umahus melubash baguf”?
2. What were the answers that the Rebbe didn’t like?
3. How did atzmus umahus melubash beguf answer the question?
4. a superficial translation is that Hashem in a human body chalila, which sounds EXACTLY like Christianity. They should sue for plagiarism, along with the idea of dying and being resurrected messiah
Yes I know a typical neshama is chelek Eloka but yet nobody ever said you can daven to a human until the Rebbe.

Oy! Der eigel vet helfn

Chofetz Chaim writes explicitly in Tiferes Adam that the custom is not to allow any type of utensil to cut to shorten the beard and that since that was the accepted minhag yisroel it has the force of a prohibition.

But the Chofetz Chaim is only followed when it fits with our lifestyle! Let’s find fault in others. It makes us feel better than examining ourselves.

(Mainly yeshiva bochurim don’t grow beards. Married sometimes/often do. Bochurim are pottur from all mitzvos till they get marries and start growing beards if they consider themselves gedolim).

And the abridged mincha that the Bais Yossef says is improper (even for sefardim) – who cares!

But let’s point fingers at “those” guys!

Those guys don’t sleep in a sukkah and eat cake before davening!

As for the loshon hara, it’s not lashon hara to tell people to avoid avoda zara. Ein lecha toeles gedola mizu.

Wow rebbitzen, it took 4 attempts to get that through but you finally did it!

At night, when there is a full moon, many report that there is an increase of human insanity. Outdoors, in the dark of the night, the orb of the moon is full and bright. Dogs howl at it, disturbed by it’s illumination. We are living in a dark world. The sun of the illumination of past Gedolim has set. There is little light, but for the full moon of those who are mekarev Yidden back to yiddishkeit as we await the dawning of the sunrise of Moshiach and the Geulah. Yet, some are disturbed by the moon, and the light it shines on the dark world. They complain, criticize and seek to blot out the moon, but alas, it is beyond their reach. They raise their voices with all their might while hospitals report an increase of insanity on those nights with a full moon. As we await dawn.

@RebbitzenGoldenpickanicerscreenname, “But the Chofetz Chaim is only followed when it fits with our lifestyle!”
Just in case you don’t know, that’s not how Halacha works. There’s no “Supreme Authority” that decides all the Halachos. They’re all up for debate, and have been for Millenia. Klal Yisrael is not a Hasidic Dynasty with a “Supreme Leader” over it, that decides all the aspects of daily living. We go from Tanach, on to Mishna, then to Talmud, Then to meforshim and poskim, e.g. Rabbeinu Tam, Rambam, Tur, Etc. And FYI, Reb Moshe was Mattir Electric Shavers, and so was Rav Belsky. Furthermore, in Shulchan Halevi, page 127, Rav Belsky argues that had the Chofetz Chaim seen our Shavers, he would be Mattir it.

You gotta love that the shavers rely on Reb Moshe while they use the eruv in NYC and Flatbush and BoroPark. because when it comes to eruv, Reb Moshe is not the final say…collect kulos from every maykil…but point fingers a those that don’t sleep in a sukah (gasp!) or eat cake before davening (double gasp!).

You gotta love that the shavers rely on Reb Moshe while they use the eruv in NYC and Flatbush and BoroPark.

Who does that? The Litvaks don’t use the eruv, and chassidim don’t shave. Besides, unless someone is a talmid muvhak, they don’t necessarily follow one posek for everything.

And don’t belittle being mevatel the mitzvah of sukkah, it the issur of eating before davening. They’re both wrong.

You interested in answers or just interested in mocking?

He holds it’s a”z. So mocking is a mitzvah.

If you’re sincere you would go and ask someone in person your concerns

If you’re sincere, go ask R’ Aharon Feldman in person.

“But the Chofetz Chaim is only followed when it fits with our lifestyle!”

I know you meant that to be condescending, but it’s actually a pretty non-controversial statement. There are all sorts of cases where Chabad doesn’t follow the Shulchan Aruch HaRav to the letter; I’ve had some pretty good, informative conversations with Sechel on here about why that is.

Have you ever met anyone who follows one sefer of collected halachah for all minhagim? Have you ever heard anyone say, “my mother’s mesora was Minhag Kitzur, but my father came from a minhag Be’er Heiteiv family?” It’s also not controversial to observe that we posken a lot of issues different in America than we did before (psst, Chabad also did this). What’s the big deal? Also, you surely realize the electric razor didn’t exist back then, right?

yehoshuaahron, am I missing something. I wrote that the there is no source that the Metzudas Dovid was a descendant of Dovid Hamelech, so you quote the entire (I think) article of Wikipedia, which I referenced, and it makes no mention of it either. You also quote a great-great-nephew of the Tzemach Tzedek saying that the TT’s grandfather was “migeza” the Metzudas Dovid, and then you go on to explain that that means he was somehow related.

Where is the connection to Dovid Hamelech, other than what Chatzkeltodres wrote that the Rashab allegedly said that “we are from Beis Dovid”?

And rebbetzinwhat’shername, the issue isn’t so much not sleeping in the sukkah as in saying that it is the best way of acting when the Gemoro and ALL poskim (including the Baal Hatanya) say otherwise.

The same with eating before Shachris where it is permitted for someone who is feeling weak, and not as a blanket minhag.

According to my “expert photo analysis”, most likely Rabbi Jacobson doesn’t trim his beard, just tucks it in with “rubber bands”. For some reason it’s very commonly done by Chasidish men, but apparently uncommon in Lubavitch.

Syag Lchochma
It isn’t about hate, it is about watching people do things we know to be wrong.
I think you see yourself, how many lies were made about chabad, and that’s why I would consider it hate (sometimes).
Have you ever thought that maybe what you see at first glance may seem wrong, but if you delve in a little bit and learn the subject, it might give you some clarity? ( Like learning a shtikul Gemorah).
Just look at the statistics, it’s not only Chabad that doesn’t consider them selves ovif havoda zara, it’s also many non Lubavitchers that say the same, litvishe and chassidish, and don’t forget that a big percentage of Chabad weren’t originally lubavitch, meaning they didn’t consider your concerns true.
So maybe think again and learn more about it, you might change your mind, like your neighbors.
As yeddin we don’t try to find a fault in someone else.

Rso – “And rebbetzinwhat’shername, the issue isn’t so much not sleeping in the sukkah as in saying that it is the best way of acting when the Gemoro and ALL poskim (including the Baal Hatanya) say otherwise. The same with eating before Shachris where it is permitted for someone who is feeling weak, and not as a blanket minhag.”

The pot calling the kettle black. Let me paraphrase your words:

“the issue isn’t so much about SHAVING or Hoicha Kedusha at MINCHA as in saying that it is the best way of acting when the Gemoro and ALL poskim say otherwise. The same with eating Cholov Akum where it is permitted when needed, and not as a blanket minhag.”

A bit of a double standard, don’t you think?!

Rebitzin: RSo is Chassidishe. Cholov akum and shaving deflections are not effective on him. And, not to dignify your comment with too much of a response, but apparently not all poskim agree that heicha mincha is b’deived. Goan brought a proof ealier from the Beis Yosef I think.

Syag: With the whole “hate” discussion, I agree with you, but to be fair I seem to remember you doing the same thing when we pointed out problems with the Five Towns. And, don’t say it’s not comparable. If anything, those problems were a lot worse than our issues with Chabad. Point is it’s not a Chabad-specific deflection tactic; it just seems to be a human instinct to avoid talking about tough issues within one’s group. I avoid this human character flaw by consistently hating on everyone, including my own people.

Syag – let me explain a bit clearer.

For shaving a man must rely on kulos that are not universally accepted (and even rejected by Chofetz Chaim and many other poskim).

For an abridged hoicha kedusha by mincha (doing away with a complete chazoras haShatz), there “might” be obscure opinions that permit it, but it is certainly considered improper by poskim (including the Bais Yossef that mentions it and rejects it as improper).

But this is considered “the derech” and actually imposed on bochurim in many Litvish yeshivos, not as a b’di’eved, but as the “gold standard” of normative halacha.

Would anyone claim that these many Litvish yeshivos do not keep halacha? NEVER! It would be an absurd claim!!

Yet here we are pointing fingers at Chabad that don’t sleep in a sukah.

Indeed there are opinions that allow sleeping outside the sukah in places that get chilly at night (“mitzta’er”), but Chabad considers this their “derech” , not as a b’di’eved, but as the “gold standard” of normative halacha (just as it is imposed on our bochurim to shave – even against the majority of authorities that prohibit it).

We also point fingers at Chabad that eat coffee and cake before davening shachris.

Indeed there are heterim brough in halacha for someone that is weak or wouldn’t be able to daven properly without first having his coffee and cake…but Chabad considers this their “derech” , not as a b’di’eved, but as the “gold standard” of normative halacha (just as it is imposed in our many Litivsh yeshivos to have a short mincha with a hoicha kedusha even against the majority of authorities that prohibit it).

Here comes the double standard:

Would anyone claim that these many Litvish yeshivos do not keep halacha? NEVER! It would be an absurd claim!! But we openly claim that Chabad does not keep “proper” halacha! We make this absurd claim and do not see the absurdity and perfidy of our words.

All Jews are “part” of Hashem, yes.
At a very low level, Hashem’s neshama connects us to Him. Human beings are so loft that the malachim wanted to say shira to Adam Harishon. Yes. All true.
THAT SAID
We are still nivra and Hashem is still the borei. That is why it’s called elohim acheirim. There are other powers. But Hashem is above them and controls them. Malachim have powers too.
It is still assur to daven to a human being.
Hashem Himself has no guf.
Hashem alone runs the world.
Hashem is rishon and acharon.
It violates ikkarim to say Hashem has a form, so the Rebbe’s words of atzmus umahus melubash baguf are kefira.
It violates ikkarim to say someone other than Hashem runs the world, so saying “The Rebbe helps” is kefira.
It violates ikkarim to say that you can daven to anyone other than Hashem, so the Rebbe’s use of atzmus to say you can daven directly to a Rebbe are kefira.

My source is the Rebbe’s own teshuva from 1979. And the gedolim quoted who agree that it’s kefira. As people here seem to not know how to navigate threads, I will repeat them again:
Rav Aharon Kotler zt”l
Rav Menachem Mann Shach zt”l
Rav Menashe Klein zt”l (chassidish posek who clearly understands chassidus and still says yechi is apikorsus)
yblc”t Rav Aharon Feldman zt”l (if people believe the Rebbe didn’t die and thus deifying him)
yblc”t Rav Hershel Schachter shlit”a (can be heard on his lecture “segulos and superstitions”, available where his lectures usually are available)

Prior to 1979, before atzmus, the Rebbe was just another guy who claimed to be moshiach. No big deal, history is full of them, some of them (like Shlomo Molcho) remembered more fondly than others.
Yerushalayim today is as well Walk around Yerushalayim and you’ll bump into a few claimants for the same crown, all harmless. Atzmus crossed the line. So when Lubavitchers say yechi about a guy who died, saying he’s alive it sounds like deification, with backup from the Rebbe’s own writings to confirm these suspicious. When Lubavitchers say The Rebbe runs the world, it sounds like the tazmus kefira. When Lubavitchers say the items used by the Rebbe have “Elokus” (to quote the words from the “Stump the Rabbi” guy ), it sounds like deification. When The same stump the rabbi guy says the Rebbe can’t make a mistake , even though Moshe Rabbeinu made mistakes, it sounds like deification. When said Stump the Rabbi guy says “everyone believes the Rebbe is alive, just a question of do we tell outsiders”, it kind of confirms suspicions. This goes beyond tzror hachaim that everyone has so please don’t try that red herring. When there are videos of Lubavitchers bowing down to an empty chair that the Rebbe once sat in, that looks like deification. When there are videos of the Chabad LAg Baomer parade where every group performs in front of the Rebbe’s chair as if he’s alive, that looks like deification. When you hear multiple eyewitness stories about people who davened to the Rebbe direcly, it sounds like deification.
In short, everything Lubavitch in Crown Heights does looks strongly like the kefira put forth by the Rebbe. So yes, stay away.
It’s easy to accept Lubavitch when you’re an am haaretz looking for a late minyan with vodka, but the more you know, the worse it looks. Yes, chassidus crossed many theological lines that started the slippery slope. Chabad reached rock bottom of the slope with the deification. Just read the ikkarei emuna and judge for yourself.

Chabad has 2 sets of beliefs- one that they tell outsiders and one that they really believe. Atzmus teshiva is out there now for all to read. So is the basi legani maamar.

But I’m just a poste balabos. Ask your rabbonim.

Cut out the middle man- daven to Hashem directly! Have bitachon that Hashem will help as He alone runs the world. Do hiskashrus to Hashem via dveykus to His middos.
Become of Chossid of Hashem instead of giving money to some grifter “Rebbe”

great question about atzmus
from what i understand your whole problem is on the atzmus part – meaning if the atzmus part makes sense everything else in your questions pretty much makes sense and just needs to be fined tuned.

(as it looks like the moshiach part you can handle especially based on sanhedrin 98B based on poshut pshat and the meforshim there E.G. chasam sofer, pri tzadik, sdei chemed, beis shmuel in shulchan aruch regarding “ksivas get” and others)

there are a few options either we can try explaining it to you or you can ask a lubavitcher you respect (YY Jacobson was mentioned)