Joining Chabad

Can we stop the hate please ? Like seriously
Who cares what group you follow just follow torah and mitzvois and your good

Who cares what group your from as long as you keep torah and mitzvois
I love all yidden

“ It is not so poshut to join Chabad.

Did you go over the 15 page application form?

Then they have requirements that take hours of each day!

The bare MINIMUM is you gotta spend lots of time each day doing what they call “Chitas” – the entire parsha WITH Rashi! A chunk of Tehilim. And almost a chapter in Tanya.

But that’s not all! No youi aren’t done with the MINUMUM requirements yet!

You also gotta do THREE preokim in RAMBAM – daily.

They also expect you to learn many of the weekly sichos and attend regular farbrengens (almost weekly or at least 3 a month!) …

and that is the MINIMUM requirements for…girls.

Boys gotta do so much more!“

You don’t k ow what your taking about everyone does what they’re able to do and girls don’t do 3 perakim they do one Perek and some do Sefer hamitzvos

“Shabsai Tzvi and Yaakov Frenk were rejected, not because they turned out not to be moshiach, but because they became resho’im, openly rejected observance of halacha and told their followers to commit serious aveiros, and eventually committed shmad.”

Milhouse: Many Gedolei Yisroel condemned and denounced Shabsai Tzvi long before he started committing public aveiros and was exposed as a fraud.

Any: You really want people to bring sources to prove Chabad Meshichism is a thing? You don’t seem to have decided on a counter point yet, but claiming meshichism doesn’t exist is not an option. Your options are:

The Sechel Hayashar route: “meshichism is a problem, but there are still many legitimate Lubavitchers who haven’t fallen into such kefira.”
The Tomim route: “the Rebbe is moshiach and you’re all koifers for doubting him”
The Milhouse/Ocasio-Cortez route: “lying to the entire world is a noble and justifiable thing as long as it’s for the right reasons.”

If you’d like to beat around the bush and pretend to be ignorant of the entire issue, I suggest you ask Chabadshlucha how that worked out.

To Lubavicher who asks us to stop the hate and asks who cares what group a person follows?

Lovely thoughts, but not justified. Do you care if a person follows the reform or conservative movement? Or if they follow j for j?

I do, because it is anto-Torah, and much of what some of the lubavichers on this forum have said is also anti-Torah.

NonPolitical: To make this so that you too can follow along I’ll be short and straight to the point. (For reasons that would be clear at the end, I’m starting from the bottom up)/
1) We have not made any claims. You made a claim (or rather expressed a fanciful delusion).
Wrong. Both of you seem to claim that A) Chassidus is an invention (in the strictest sense), and B) no talmudei Ha’Gra held that it’s novelty had any truth to it, on the contrary it was put into cherem percisely for it. (As to my claim, see number 3). According to any interpretation of the English language this is called a ‘claim’.

2) Much like you have interpreted the English language in a novel way.
If you are referring to ‘invented’, all I can say is that if you can’t refute it then as far as we are concerned it is true.

3) You keep repeating this ridiculous claim like a broken record without giving even one coherent example to back yourself up. And no, saying the word “Tzimzum” doesn’t count as a coherent example, sorry.
I have already given you a source to look up my claims, (see also in the publication Heichal HaBesht many instances where the NH quoted exclusive Chassidus). [As for Tzimzum, see 3:7, and Likutei HaGra at the back of Sifrei DeTzuaseh].
If you are intellectually dishonest or too lazy to look these up yourself, then we truly have nothing to discuss, as it is quite obvious then that you are not interested in the truth.

Joseph: Many Gedolei Yisroel condemned and denounced Shabsai Tzvi long before he started committing public aveiros and was exposed as a fraud.

Such as?

“The lubavicher rebbe did not have ANY of the criteria for chezkas moshiach as outlined in the Rambam”

Didn’t have ANY? Really? Have you ever looked inside a Rambam? He didn’t have ALL, but he definitely had some.
Such as הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצות כדוד אביו.

Don’t misconstrue my words, I don’t believe the criteria of Chezkas Moshiach was fulfilled in the Rebbe, but he did fit at least the first one to a tee. I won’t be the first to say that would we have been Zoche to Bias HaMoshiach during the Rebbes lifetime, there was no better candidate than the Rebbe. This is something that many people and Rabbonim outside Lubavitch stated.

אמר רב נחמן אי מן חייא הוא כגון אנא שנאמר (ירמיהו ל, כא) והיה אדירו ממנו ומושלו מקרבו יצא אמר רב אי מן חייא הוא כגון רבינו הקדוש אי מן מתיא הוא כגון דניאל איש חמודות
translation from sefarya .org
Rav Naḥman says: If the Messiah is among the living in this generation, he is a person such as me, who already has dominion over the Jewish people, as it is stated: “And their prince shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from their midst” (Jeremiah 30:21), indicating that the redeemer is already in power. Rav says: If the Messiah is among the living in this generation, he is a person such as our saintly Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi, who was renowned for his sanctity, piety, and Torah knowledge. If the Messiah is among the dead he is a person such as Daniel, the beloved man.

rashi
אי מן חייא הוא כגון רבינו הקדוש – אם משיח מאותן שחיים עכשיו ודאי היינו רבינו הקדוש דסובל תחלואים וחסיד גמור הוה כדאמרינן בבבא מציעא (דף פה.) ואם היה מאותן שמתו כבר היה דניאל איש חמודות שנדון ביסורין בגוב אריות וחסיד גמור היה והאי כגון לאו דווקא

@rso your saying according to the second opinion in rashi:
ל”א כגון רבינו הקדוש כלומר אם יש דוגמתו בחיים היינו רבינו הקדוש ואם דוגמא הוא למתים היינו כגון דניאל איש חמודות:

starting basic

The Rebbe redefined the Rambam to make himself fit its criteria better. He defined “fought wars” to mean his kiruv work, which is why they have “mitzvah tanks” and tzivos Hashem”. He also interpreted a Yalkut Shimoni (the one with the words anavim anavim hegia zman geulaschem) to mean moshiach is standing on top of the beis hamikdash me’at in golus announcing moshiach. Since moshiach=the Rebbe, 770 became the beis hamikdash of galous. This is why Lubavitchers build 770 replicas in different neighborhoods- to build a replica of what they believe is the beis hamikdash of galus. The Rebb put down a cornerstone as part of an expansion project that never really finished. As such, Lubavitchers say the Rebbe “built the beis hamikdash in its place” , ie 770 . These 2 forced interpretations work for them but not for anyone with a seichel hayashar.

Even Lubavitchers would join litvaks in denouncing the crazy cults of Messianic Jews, Lev Tahor, Eliezer Berland, or Reform Judaism. That’s not hate- it’s pointing out he truth and loving all Jews, and hoping we can save them. We don’t hate the innocent brainwashed Jews of extreme meshichist chabad any more than we hate the brainwashed youth of Lev Tahor. It’s not their fault. “Hater” is the Lubavitch hijacking of the liberal “racist”, designed to change the subject into an ad hominem and deflect from the issues.

It was kind of understood that everything the rebbe shlita (as per signs in 770, he’s the Rebbe Shlita, feel free to stop and and see for yourself- pok chazi) said about his father in law “nosi hador” was meant for himself. Later he bacame more explicit and said things like “Moshiach’s name is Menachem” “moshiach miyad”, (miyad being roshei teivos for dov ber, yosef yitzchk, menachem mendel) and moshiach mamash (mamash being roshei teivos for menachem mendel schneerson). And as per daily rebbe vido #244, you can watch him waving along with the yechi adoneinu song. In basi legani he also said that Hashem loves 7, and just as Moshe is the 7th shepherd and redeemed the jews so too moshiach will be the 7th shepherd (the last Rebbe was the 7th Lubavitcher rebbe.)
Not hatred. He made the claim.
As for who said it’s wrong, Adoniyahu claimed to be king as is viewed as a rasha for doing so.
Nasi hador is a ridiculous title for a guy who had 1 tenth of the followers at his funeral than Rav Shach zt”l had. Yet he called himself that.
(Once we’re on the topic of Rav Shach zt”l, Rav Shach zt”l was rather clear in his denunciation of Lubavitch and called it avoda zara. In return for his kind-hearted efforts to save a large portion of klal yisroel from eveira, he was called “Shach” and “mibnei banav shel Haman limdu torah bebnei brak”. He was not denouncing Lubavitchers, which is a big difference. )

Rav Aharon Kotler zt”l, the gadol who rebuilt Litvish America, also warned about Chabad.

That was when the Rebbe was alive and “yechi adoneinu” was sung to a living person who could at least have been moshiach based on the fact that he was alive, though the odds were greatly against.
Now that the Rebbe has passed on , yechi adoneniu has become quite problematic. Rav Chai mKohn of the KAJ used to check the shochtim at Rubashkin to make sure they believed that the Rebbe was dead instead of alive, even if they believed he was moshiach. Rav Aharon Feldman shlit”a, who is on the moetzes, has the same view. So according to both of them, the ubiquitious “yechi” yarmulkes around Crown Heights are apikorsus. Lubavitchers say in return that they are just “snags” (“Snags” being the perjorative term used by American Lubavitchers to describe litvaks, short for misnagdim) who don’t understand chassidus. In other words, yes those gedolim hold “yechi” Lubavitch is apikorsus , but it’s only because they are litvish. Of course Rav Menashe Klein zt”l , who was a chassidish posek, said the same thing.

Feel free to look at chabad news websites and see how the “yechi” yarmulkes are everywhere to understand that yes, it’s malei apikorsus according to many gedolim. Lubavitchers have teirutzim for everything, but why not kaleich eitzel yafos and avoid the problematic apikorsus and avoda zara?

Once we’re on the topic of Rav Shach zt”l, Rav Shach zt”l was rather clear in his denunciation of Lubavitch and called it avoda zara. In return for his kind-hearted efforts to save a large portion of klal yisroel from eveira, he was called “Shach” and “mibnei banav shel Haman limdu torah bebnei brak”. He was not denouncing Lubavitchers, which is a big difference

several ponts to consider (i dont think any of us can say who is right or wrong)
One was the Rebbe’s innovation of learning Rambam everyday to finish it in 1 years or 3 years. R. Shach mocked it saying that people already knew of the Rambam before the Rebbe came around, and he said that no one should follow the Rebbe’s Rambam learning cycle. (He supported daf yomi, and never rejected it saying that people knew of the gemoro before R. Shapiro). He gave two reasons: that people will pasken from the Rambam and it will disrupt seder. Neither of these points seem to be valid, as people who learn Rambam know that we don’t always pasken according to the Rambam; and the Rebbe was very adamant that chitas and Rambam should not be learned during seder.

Another thing of contention was whether you can give land of Eretz Yisroel away. The Rebbe was very against giving away land, while R. Shach supported giving away land for “peace”.
______
The Rebbe got very upset when R. Shach spoke really sharply against non religious Jews and kibbutznikim, saying that they forfeited their right to be called Jews. The Rebbe said that “every Jew is part of God” and that “anyone who berates any Jew is touching the apple of God’s eye. (The Rebbe was always careful to only speak of other Jews favourably, similar to the derech of the berditchiver.)

as we see slowly that more and more non lubavtichers relize this (E.g. aish hatora)
and other kiruv

@ SH

“Didn’t have ANY? Really? Have you ever looked inside a Rambam? He didn’t have ALL, but he definitely had some. Such as הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצות כדוד אביו.”

That first criteria taken on it’s own would fit many Gedolim. Using your logic I could say that the head of the secular Israeli government fulfills one of the criteria by waging war against the enemies of the Jewish People. Those criteria are parts of a whole.

Lovely thoughts, but not justified. Do you care if a person follows the reform or conservative movement? Or if they follow j for j?

I do, because it is anto-Torah, and much of what some of the lubavichers on this forum have said is also anti-Torah.

I cant belive someone compared Chabad to reform or christianity

So now that I have quoted gedolim who say that every “yechi” yarmulke is a declaration of apikorsus, and a simple visit to Crown Heights will unfortunately show a very large number of such apikorsus, there can be no reason to entertain a hava amina of joining Chabad, even if they do have a 10:30 shacharis with a sach vodka and shnapps. Avoid the apikorsus. I feel very bad for them, the same way I feel bad for members of the Lev Tahor cult.

A Chabad-leaning friend of mine who was old enough to visit 770 when the Rebbe was clearly alive lefi hakol mentioned the time he was there and saw a few people davening directly to the Rebbe. The Rebbe turned around and corrected them and told them to daven to Hashem instead. While my friend reported this incident in a positive light, all I will say is that nobody “accidentally” davened to Rav Shach zt”l.

on Rav Shach zt”l, who had 10 times the amount of people at his levaya than the Rebbe
So??
Who said that’s what defines a nosi??
I feel bad if thats how you define one

@ TheFakeMaven

Was your last post a parody of a logical argument?

“As for the rest of you rebuttal, saying I won’t get into it is more or less an admission, so thank you.”

You consider my not being willing to engage in a debate in the YWN coffee room on the finer points of the GR”As and Baal HaTanyas machlokes regarding Tzimzum an admission to the truth of your silly deutions?

LerntMin – Nasi hador is a ridiculous title for a guy who had 1 tenth of the followers at his funeral than Rav Shach zt”l had. Yet he called himself that.

Well, if the criteria of Nosi Hadoris based on the size of one’s funeral, then the Nosi of our Dor was Nelson Mandela or Princess Di.

How much have you sampled of the spirits for Purim?!

This is not my opinion nor is it necessarily the chabad opinion but I thought I might share something to clarify this whole meshichist/yechi thing- if you like it – good. if not, not. But not for upshlog.

If someone gets inspired to do any mitzvah from learning something which everyone else says, has nothing to do with what he got inspired to do (he may have even read the words wrong)
I hope you get the moshol.

Nimshal
We say the rebbe is nosi hador/moshiach shebidor

And Al pi poshut pshat the gemora says “yaakov lo mais” -which on a simple level means kipshuto.

From all this we get inspired to add in our observance of Torah and mitzvos.

You say we learnt it wrong? that’s ok, everyone is entitled to an opinion. but as long as Its not taking away from Torah and mitzvos but rather it helps ppl add in Torah and mitzvos What do you care how we came to this inspiration.

If you feel that RAK or someone else is the nosi hador/moshiach shebidor and it helps you add in Torah and mitzvos – gezunterheit.

No need for arguments

It seems I have been challenged for a source about what i wrote about the 6th Rebbe. So I will quote from none other than Bryan Mark Rigg, who wrote the book on how Rav YY Shneerson escaped the Nazis:

…[T]he Rebbe [Joseph Isaac Schneersohn] of course wanted to escape Europe and had his movement employ every means, even approaching the Secretary of State, to get him out, but when he was here in the US, he did not approach those very same people to help rescue those who had to remain in Europe. However, he did approach those people in the government to rescue his library, which he did get out in 1941. Are books more important than people? Some of the books were secular like Dante’s Inferno and books on Communism. This is a sad part of the history of the Rebbe. Also he started [publicly] condemning people who were organizing amazing rescue efforts like rabbis Kotler and Kalmanowitz of the Vad-Haatzala.

He claimed they and Reform and Kofrim Jews were causing the Holocaust with their non-Kosher ways. Yet, we see that Kotler and Kalmanowitz helped rescue up to 100,000 people with the War Refugee Board. The Rebbe felt they were unnecessarily compromising their religious integrity by meeting with politicians on the Sabbath and secular and reform leaders. So the Rebbe made mistakes and according to Chancellor or Yeshiva University, Norman Lamm, he committed blasphemy by claiming God was punishing the Jews for their sins with the Holocaust. He claims this is a desecration of God’s name (Menachem Mendel Schneerson also said that saying such a thing is a desecration of God’s name without mentioning his father-in-law). These facts and many more show how much Chabad does to ignore unpleasant facts about their history. They just claim that when people write such things, they are jealous of their movement, do not understand their people or on a political campaign to smear them. Very weak arguments and signs of inferiority complexes. So basically this story shows that instead of pointing fingers, we need to act and make a difference. Small minds blame others; big ones blame themselves and then seek out action to make the situation better.

What people wanted was a hero of the Jewish people fighting for their rights. Instead, the Rebbe just thought of himself and his movement and condemned others. He was not helping the problem, but creating more. He should have worked with [Rov] Kotler and [Rabbi] Kalmanowitz, or at least have tried to, instead of [publicly] condemning them and a host of others.

“Nasi hador” literally means leader of the generation. Obviously the world exists only for those who keep the torah and mitzvos, so we’re limited to Torah observers. Who led more Torah observers, the Lubavitcher rebbe or Rav Shach? The answer is clearly Rav Shach. Chabad would say in response that only those who follow the Chabad way count, so the only choice is the Rebbe. Fair enough, but nobody else will fall for that.

I love this historical revisionism, claiming the current Rebbe only loved and never opposed anything, and neither did the previous rebbes. I have documented my findings of pamphlets that say otherwise, both from Making of a Gadol and Bryan Mark Rigg. I’m sure there are a lot more but this is sufficient to dispel that myth.

But that’s irrelevant. Let’s get back to the point of this thread. Should one join chabad? I admit the thought of a lit 10:30 shacharis with boatloads of vodka afterwards sounds like fun. But safeik avoda zara lechumra.

Rav Shach: his secular grandchildren loved him. Clearly not the hateful man described here. He publicly took harsh stances but was much different in private.

Yitamu chataim min ha’aretz.

I think it’s a good idea to make a section of “soothing lies Lubavitchers will tell newbies”.
1. The Rebbes never attacked anyone, and all their misnaged opponents were just haters.
2. Most Lubavitchers don’t believe the rebbe is moshiach, hey just talk a lot about moshiach since the Rebbe who was the greatest man who ever lived did
3. Ok, they believe the Rebbe is moshiach, but most believe that the Rebbe died as was obvious to all during his funeral.

As for the idea that the rebbe is kepshuto alive, there’s a whole process in verifying a death in a hospital. And the body wasn’t buried until the next day. Finally, the Rebbe was kind of an invalid at that point after multiple strokes. do you really want him living in such a hellish state for 25 years? It’s nuts. but so be it.

Continuation
Why does everyone have the urge to put down Chabad every time it’s mentioned?!.

Apparently the censors don’t like when I write sad truths about r. schach and r. kotler but they don’t mind if anyone makes fun of lubavitch or the lubavitcher rebbe so I’ll try this 1 last time

As anyusername already explained most of it so I’ll try to summarize

The rebbe never responded to personal insults from anyone he only responded to the insults that affected large groups of Jews for example the irreligious on the kibbutzim that r. shach called non Jews or in the case of the previous lubavitcher rebbe r. Kotler refusing to give food to the lubavitcher bachurim in Shanghai since he didn’t consider them bnai Torah and causing 2 of the bachurim to die of hunger for lack of food
As a side point halacha says הרב שמחל על כבודו כבודו מחול it also says (sorry I don’t remember the exact Hebrew phrase) that a talmid can’t be מוחל on his teachers behalf so even though the rebbe will never respond to the personal insults, the chassidim will so if you call the rebbe “the man sitting in Brooklyn and driving the whole world crazy” or after his stroke you say that you’ll say tehhilim that he has a refuah shleima physically and mentally (implying that you think he’s mentally ill) don’t get surprised when chassidim start hating you and making up things about you like saying (to use anyusernames example) that you’re mibnei banav shel Haman limdu torah bebnei brak.

The Rebbe’s father-in-law spoke very harshly of the Jews in Europe, saying they deserved to die in the holocaust

This is a filthy lie. You present no evidence for your claim that Norman Lamm said it, so I don’t believe you; but if he had said it then he would have been a liar. But more likely you’re the liar.