- This topic has 62 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 4 months, 1 week ago by .
-
Posts
-
You’re right, I was off on the percentages. In 1986 (when Rav Moshe was niftar) 23% of men in the US had graduated college. In 2022 36% of men in the US had graduated college. Nevertheless, even now it is a minority who get a degree. Currently, when college is higher than previously, still 2 out 3 American men do not graduate college. There’s no basis to claim one must graduate college in order to make a living. Unless you want to argue the 64% of American men today who never graduated college are not making a living.
Furthermore, as I keep repeating — Kach hi darkah shel Torah — pas b’melach tochal” — bread, salt and water. If you have that, you have parnasah. You might need college if you want to own a Cadillac or Lexus, but you don’t need college to have pas b’melach tochal. And if without college you’ll live in a three bedroom (or less) rented apartment on the third floor, with all five boys sharing one bedroom and the four girls all sharing another, you certainly should choose that over college. Even if you often end up clothing your children in second hand, hand me down, clothing from your sister in law’s children who outgrew those otherwise good apparel.
Joe, you ignored my last point – what about paying tuition?
I also wonder how many Rabbonim today would actually encourage people to live on pas b’melach. What about for Shabbos, when you must have wine or grape juice for Kiddush, and meat for your seudos? Do you ignore that as well?
Joe, you just pick the things you want, that seem to fit your point, and abuse them. You have no modern Rabbinic backing for this.
Now, in my case, I discussed going to college with R’ Bender before I left Darchei. He felt that I should go to college, and encouraged me in it. I have no regrets at all about having attended college.Joseph,
It’s so cute when you dictate a life of poverty and sacrifice upon others. Which Rav gave you permission to supposedly become both a semiconductor engineer and a a nuclear physicist?
DaMoshe: There’s over half a million children in American Yeshivos and Beis Yaakovs. How many children from poor families, even the most poor of the poor, do you know that can’t get into Yeshiva and went to public school because all the Yeshivos denied them due to their inability to pay?
I’m not sure there’s even one out of the half a million plus. It doesn’t happen. If a family has no money, their children still go to Yeshiva.
Do you think that Chazal were unaware of grape juice or wine for Kiddush and meat for your seudos when they told us pas b’melach?
Is Rav Moshe and Rav Ahron, the two greatest Gedolim in America IN OUR GENERATION, chopped liver, in your esteemed opinion?! Or they’re simply not “modern” (to use your above terminology) enough for you?
Dofi: FYI — I’m not a member of Chazal. I promise. I’m not the one who came up with Kach hi darkah shel Torah — pas b’melach tochal.
Joseph,
So which Rav gave you permission to ignore Pas Bamelech Tochal and supposedly become both a semiconductor engineer and a nuclear physicist?
some of college numbers are complicated. Here is directly from 2021 census Educational Attainment in the United States: 2021
25 to 34 year old, both men/women
bachelor and higher 41%
at least 2 years of college 59%
high school or less 27%
high school or less for all ages: men are slightly behind 29% women 26%Census gov Table 2. Percent of the Population with a Bachelor’s Degree or Higher by Sex and Age, for the United States: 1940 to 2000
1940 1950 1960 1970 1980 1990 2000
Male 25 to 29 years 6.9 9.6 14.4 19.5 23.6 21.7 24.7
Female 4.9 5.9 7.8 13.3 20.5 22.4 29.7also choose your area
Geographic area 1980 1990 2000
MALE ONLY all ages
..West Virginia 12.1 13.7 15.6
..Alabama 17.0 20.5 23.2..New York 24.6 29.8 33.9
..New Jersey 25.7 31.7 35.9
..Maryland 28.1 33.7 37.9DaMoshe > you ignored my last point – what about paying tuition?
tuition may be a problem in mixed areas where working families are forced to pay more. But in areas where everyone has same lifestyle, nobody is robbed, except possibly children. Even in mixed areas, many are forced to teach in lieu of tuition. Again, nobody loses except children and taxmen.
relying on welfare and other transfer payments, even single mother programs seems like a bigger problem. Of course, the more such programs become mainstream, the harder it is to figure out what is ok. “free” food, for example, became pretty popular.
PS I dont ask children to thank me for providing them with food and clothes, but when they mention about something they got at school for “free” via a gov program, I insist on a “thank you to me for that”. Some did not get it first why they need to thank the taxpayer.
Joe, of course they’re let into the schools, but that doesn’t mean that the parents should choose to live a life where they need scholarships for it. Scholarships should be for those who are trying to pay in full, doing their best, but aren’t able. If you’re not putting in the effort, you shouldn’t qualify for it.
As for R’ Moshe and R’ Ahron, please show us where they say the optimal way to live is with pas b’melach, and that you should plan to utilize scholarships, without even attempting to maximize the amount you pay.DaMoshe, I tihnk R Moshe answers your question in the teshuva where he argues that it is not necessary to go to college. He says, paraphrasing, you do not need to try to live like top 5%, you can live like a median American without going to college, as the median American did not at the time. He is clearly not suggesting the charity route or pas b’melach, or at least he is conscious that it will not be accepted by the majority.
Also, please differentiate between pas b’melach, which is a very respectable approach, v. relying on scholarships and government welfare.
Anyone know the answer to @coffeeaddict?
I saw the pamphlet and was bothered as well.First, you need to hear the tape. Rav is not responsible for the pamphlet writers. I stopped reading them for this reason.
@coffee addict – If I remember correctly, from Rabbi Millers seforim on history, he says that bar kamtza was a tzedoki, and that is the reason that the Chachamim did not protest when he was asked to leave. They were afraid that whatever was being discussed would be brought back to the romans. I believe that Rabbi Miller quoted the Maharsh”a, but I don’t remember 100%.
I actually just googled, “was bar kamtza a saducee”, and what came back was as follows: “According to the Talmud, Bar Kamtza was a wealthy and prominent citizen of Jerusalem who was trusted by high-ranking Roman officials. Historians have suggested that Bar Kamtza was part of a faction that wanted to cooperate with the Romans”. So Rabbi Millers assertion seems to be historically accurate and plausible.@coffeeaddict I hear. Let me look into it more over the weekend and b”n get back to you. Have a gut Shabbos
well, bar kamtza obviously was for cooperation with Romans, as this is where he went. But I never heard of tzduki connection. Anyone sees it in Maharsha? Should be in either Gittin or Yoma gemoras, I presume
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.