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Posts
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Lakewood Fellow +1
Health -100000000000000000000000000000000000000
Health,
You said,
“You are chasing your tail. I never was arguing on this fact, even if I used the word “State”. My argument with you was about Jewish immigration to Palestine. You probably have even forgotten this because you have confused yourself with your many, many lies.”
No, you were, and you called me a liar for disagreeing with you remember? Anyway the British never had in mind to let as many Jews wanted to emigrate to Palestine and proved it by their actions and words: They enacted white paper after white paper and were very clear that they wouldn’t allow the character of Palestine to change to where it would be dominated by a large immigrant Jewish Population
Health,
As far as your copy and paste from wiki post about terrorist acts I can go through each of them, but then again you really should learn some history before having such strong opinions. The vast majority of the attacks listed there are military in nature… I will post more later when I have time
Health reminds me of the simple minded pigs in Orwell’s Animal Farm: “Me-right! Zionism-wrong!”
Health: I’m going to go teenagerish right now, and be, like, well DUH, you SO don’t need my permission to have whatever kind of crackpot theory you’d like about giving Israel to Turkey. After all, it only “officially” became an enemy of Israel two years go- that’s like it’s not an enemy at all, no?
I was merely mentioning that I did remember your view from a past thread and that I personally disagreed with it, just like you disagree with all of the invisible evil-Zionist-stereotypes you’re arguing with on here. That’s all.
I actually happened to back you up on some of your points (though by NO means on all. No waaaaaay). You don’t need to return it by reading nastiness into everything I say when it’s not intended and not necessary.
Baruch Hashem Klal Yisroel has ifti and LF. Who needs a Brisker Rov, Chofetz Chaim, Rav Ahron Kotler, Satmar Rebbe, Rav Elchonon Wasserman, Chazon Ish, Steipler, or Rav Shach, who while all opposed zionism we have ifti and LF who disagrees with all of them!
Health,
You said,
[29] for his anti-Zionist political activities and contacts with Arab leaders.”
He was working with the enemies of the movement to bring it down he wasn’t innocent or a civilian.
You said,
“July 15, 1938*, a bomb left in the vegetable market in Jerusalem by the Irgun injured 28[31]
July 25, 1938* the Irgun threw a bomb into the melon market in Haifa resulting in 49 deaths”
Those “markets” were well known places were Arab gangs met to plan attacks against the Jews. But you wouldn’t know that if your entire knowledge of history comes from googling select Wikipedia articles.
you said
“The killings of several suspected collaborators with the Haganah and the British mandate government during the Hunting Season.”
Those collaborators were handing over Irgun members to the British who hung them. They were Rodofim of the highest order.
You said,
“The Semiramis Hotel bombing, carried out by the Haganah (or, according to some sources, Irgun) resulted in the deaths of 24 to 26 people”
The hotel was a known place were Arabs cordinated attacks. Even a simple google search of the Hotels name would tell you that, so even you should know it.
You said,
“April 1948 the Deir Yassin massacre carried out by the Irgun and Lehi, killed between 107 and 120 Palestinian villagers,[36] the estimate generally accepted by scholars.”
Deir Yassin (now Har Nof), was a village situated on a strategic mountain top and was used by the Arabs to launch attacks on the Jews below. Due to the non stop attacks coming from the village the Irgun issued warnings to the civilians in the village to evacuate because they were going to take over the town. Some Arabs did evacuate. Others chose to stay. When the Jews came the Arab fighters hid and fought in the houses of the village. Door to door fighting ensued and there were casualties. There was no “massacre”.
You said,
“The Irgun conducted a campaign of violence against Palestinian Arab civilians resulting in the deaths of at least 250”
Never happened. even Wikipedia can’t find a source for that one
the rest of the attacks you mentioned are clearly on military targets and therefore are not “Terrorism”.
You really should learn about subjects before you form such strong opinions on them….
abra Cadabra (JOE!),Stop lumping the names og the Gedolim together as if they were of the same opinion. I don’t know if Chofets Chaim was against Zionism.
LF, yasher koach.
abracadabra: You have real insolence to infer that you are right and everyone else is wrong. Even the great Chofetz Chaim, who lived as poor as a shul mouse, ran a grocery store.
Why can’t people like you work instead of living off everyone else (and whining about it!)?
The tanaim and amoraim mostly had jobs. Only now has it become not only acceptable, but preferable not to work. I love Torah, but one must combine it with supporting one’s family. Don’t you have any pride? Do you really think the Torah wants you to live off charity for your entire life?
Lakewood Fellow -“No, you were, and you called me a liar for disagreeing with you remember? Anyway the British never had in mind to let as many Jews wanted to emigrate to Palestine and proved it by their actions and words: They enacted white paper after white paper and were very clear that they wouldn’t allow the character of Palestine to change to where it would be dominated by a large immigrant Jewish Population”
Well you are a liar and my posts were not my opinion -they were historical facts. And now you are repeating the same lies over and over again. The English wanted Palestine to be a Jewish homeland -that means taking in Jews. How much would be the end result -who knows except for you because you have Nevuah and know they really didn’t mean it. And the fact that they limited Jewish immigration was because of arab opposition, which this limiting was started by a Zionist Jew named Samuel.
ifti99 -“Health reminds me of the simple minded pigs in Orwell’s Animal Farm: “Me-right! Zionism-wrong!” “
I know you’re right because the Zionists have turned EY into an animal farm with all their Kibbutzim and other Communist ideas.
Jews are humans and live by the Torah.
I’ve always found it ironic that those preaching tolerance tend to do it in such an intolerant way… It leads me to wonder if they really believe in being nonjudgmental, or if they simply don’t want to be judged (while still being able to judge and denigrate others, particularly those to the right of them). Just a thought.
Lakewood Fellow -“He was working with the enemies of the movement to bring it down he wasn’t innocent or a civilian.”
I find it beyond disgusting to Ok killing of civilians because you are opposed to them politically. Yes, in this world -this is called civilains. While I’m personally against the Rabin assination -he was more of a non-civilian than this guy, but the killing of Rabin is terrorism acc. to you and the killing of this religious Jew is justified. Do you consider yourself s/o who keeps the Torah?
“Those “markets” were well known places were Arab gangs met to plan attacks against the Jews. But you wouldn’t know that if your entire knowledge of history comes from googling select Wikipedia articles.
The hotel was a known place were Arabs cordinated attacks. Even a simple google search of the Hotels name would tell you that, so even you should know it.
Deir Yassin (now Har Nof), was a village situated on a strategic mountain top and was used by the Arabs to launch attacks on the Jews below. Due to the non stop attacks coming from the village the Irgun issued warnings to the civilians in the village to evacuate because they were going to take over the town. Some Arabs did evacuate. Others chose to stay. When the Jews came the Arab fighters hid and fought in the houses of the village. Door to door fighting ensued and there were casualties. There was no “massacre”.
the rest of the attacks you mentioned are clearly on military targets and therefore are not “Terrorism”.”
You have just proven to e/o that you are no different than those Muslims who condone Terrorism. Funny they say the same thing (at least they used to) we were trying to kill military objects -it’s not our fault the civilains got in the way. It’s funny how you condone bombing marketplaces because there are enemies there -it doesn’t matter that civilains will be killed also. So the next time a terrorist blows up a bomb in an Israeli marketplace -you will defend them because after all they were targeting their enemies -so who cares if civilains got killed also. And this defense of Deir Yassin that you say is ok because they were attacking Jews. So it was the job of this Jewish group to uphold the law, right? They were given legal authority to uproot terrorists in Palestine. Yes, in this world if s/o is attacking you -you can shoot back -defend yourself, but to go and play policeman when not authorized is vigilantism and in this case it’s terrorism because they killed innocent civilains. You make it sound that it’s like the same thing when Israel goes into Gaza and there is civilain casualities. Wrong Mister, Israel is a legal entity and they went in there to defend themselves against terrorists.
You have just let e/o in the world know that Zionism hasn’t changed since that time. I always thought even the Zionists realized -that that was a dark time in their history.
You have done more to damage/tarnish Zionism then I could have done in my lifetime by admitting terrorism is Ok as long as the terrorists are on your side!
“The English wanted Palestine to be a Jewish homeland -that means taking in Jews. How much would be the end result -who knows except for you because you have Nevuah and know they really didn’t mean it. And the fact that they limited Jewish immigration was because of arab opposition, which this limiting was started by a Zionist Jew named Samuel.”
Again, They said “Homeland” to exclude any kind of Jewish state or Jewish control, and they made this clear as well.
The Churchill white paper was clear that there was no intention to “Make Palestine Jewish like England is English”
They were also clear that they wouldn’t stand for anything that the Arabs wouldn’t want and would take the Arab’s side against the Jews in terms of immigration and that in fact is what they did.
High Commissioner Samuel was working with what he had:
A reluctant Britain who grudgingly recognizing that Jews had some sort of right to Israel while basically saying to the Arabs that they had the Arabs backs if they complained about it, and the Hostile Arabs. He tried to negotiate an agreement on immigration that would make the British and Arabs happy.
Of course Jews giving in to Anti Semites and assuming that if they would just be reasonable the Anti Semites would love the Jews didn’t work and the British responded by issuing whitepaper after whitepaper against the Jews, and the Arabs rioted and Killed Jews; while the British looked the other way and arrested and killed any Jews caught fighting the Arabs.
Lakewood Fellow -“Again, They said “Homeland” to exclude any kind of Jewish state or Jewish control, and they made this clear as well.
And why did some Zionists insist on a State?
If they wanted a State of Jews -where Jews were the Gov., then why did they nix the British idea of Uganda which Herzl agreed to?
Let them all pack up and move Now to Uganda and the Charedim and the arabs living now in EY will be very happy.
“High Commissioner Samuel was working with what he had:
A reluctant Britain who grudgingly recognizing that Jews had some sort of right to Israel while basically saying to the Arabs that they had the Arabs backs if they complained about it, and the Hostile Arabs. He tried to negotiate an agreement on immigration that would make the British and Arabs happy.”
I hate to disillusion you but Samuel lived way before Churchill. He did it to make the arabs happy, not the English. The English wanted to let as many as possible Jews in. He started it and later the British followed his policies.
“Of course Jews giving in to Anti Semites and assuming that if they would just be reasonable the Anti Semites would love the Jews didn’t work and the British responded by issuing whitepaper after whitepaper against the Jews, and the Arabs rioted and Killed Jews; while the British looked the other way and arrested and killed any Jews caught fighting the Arabs.”
More distortion of history. The Arabs weren’t Antisemitic at that time, only AntiZionism. The English wanted to appease the arabs, just like they wanted to appease the Jews. But the Zionists were -we won’t compromise with anyone -it’s either all or nothing!
Health,
As far as the Terrorism thing,
Terror is killing civilians specifically; in order to get their governments to do something for you. For example blowing up an Israeli Shopping mall on a Sunday afternoon is a terrorist attack. Blowing up an Airliner full of civilians is a Terrorist attack.
Blowing up a known military planning base is not. Whether or not the base is called a “market” by those who use it.
The Arabs in Deir Yassin were constantly shooting at the Jewish settlements below them and at the Jews traveling the roads nearby. The British wouldn’t stop the Arabs and Jews were being attacked and killed. Thats when what happened in Deir Yassin happened. The Jew’s choice was either flee, die, or stick up for themselves. The Jews chose to stick up for themselves and warned the Arabs before they cleared the village to avoid harming civilians like I pointed out above.
I know Samuel was before Churchill. That was’t my point. Read my post again.
You said,
“But the Zionists were -we won’t compromise with anyone -it’s either all or nothing!”
Even you say that this is not true! You’r the one who keeps going on about how terrible it was that the Zionists in the British government made any compromises on immigration!
Health
You said,
“he Arabs weren’t Antisemitic at that time, only AntiZionism.”
Again,
You seem intent on taking Anti Semites at their words that the reason they hate Jews is really because of the pretext they give:
Do you beleive Chymlinczki that the reason he killed Jews was because they oppressed the masses?
How about Hitler who used the pretext that the Jews were communist Bolsheviks who caused Germany’s downfall in WW1 and were trying to take over Europe like they did in Russia?
Or do you only believe the Arabs who used the pretext that they hate Jews because of Zionism?
Being as how all the animosity starts when chilonim have to fight and chareidim don’t, I think instead of drafting chareidim, exempt chilonim if they agree to be shomer torah umitzvos.
Lakewood fellow: “No, you were, and you called me a liar for disagreeing with you remember?”
I agree, that is a good point.
Health: -1
Lakewood fellow: +1
Health,
You said,
“Funny they say the same thing (at least they used to) we were trying to kill military objects -it’s not our fault the civilians got in the way.”
What Muslim Terrorist groups say or said that?!
They specifically tell governments that they will kill civilian men, woman and children if the governments do not capitulate to their demands!
They SAY that is their goal and then they do it if they are not listened too!!! THAT is terrorism.
Blowing up military targets that are intentionally placed in civilian settings to make them impossible too get too is not, in order to disrupt the plans of a deadly enemy is not.
Its not that hard to understand
Seriously man. (Shaking head)
Lakewood Fellow -“Terror is killing civilians specifically; in order to get their governments to do something for you. For example blowing up an Israeli Shopping mall on a Sunday afternoon is a terrorist attack. Blowing up an Airliner full of civilians is a Terrorist attack.
Blowing up a known military planning base is not. Whether or not the base is called a “market” by those who use it.”
The problem with your definition of terrorism is – it’s not the world’s definition. I know, the world is Antisemitic and your not paranoid. It must be all those historical articles calling these Zionists “terrorists” are all Antisemites. It’s funny how you justify any evil things anybody has ever done, as long as it is in the name of Zionism. Wake up, if you condone terrorism, even if it’s collateral damage terrorism, you are no better than the terrorists!
“The Arabs in Deir Yassin were constantly shooting at the Jewish settlements below them and at the Jews traveling the roads nearby. The British wouldn’t stop the Arabs and Jews were being attacked and killed. Thats when what happened in Deir Yassin happened. The Jew’s choice was either flee, die, or stick up for themselves. The Jews chose to stick up for themselves and warned the Arabs before they cleared the village to avoid harming civilians like I pointed out above.”
Of course you didn’t address my point. My post was even if these arabs were terrorists, unless they are shooting directly at you at that second, it’s morally wrong to play policeman. This is called vigilantism.
And when playing policeman gets innocents killed -this is called terrorism.
“Even you say that this is not true! You’r the one who keeps going on about how terrible it was that the Zionists in the British government made any compromises on immigration!”
I didn’t say any such thing. All I said was this limiting of immigration wasn’t based on Antisemitism because the first guy to do it was a Zionist Jew.
Lakewood Fellow -“You seem intent on taking Anti Semites at their words that the reason they hate Jews is really because of the pretext they give:
Or do you only believe the Arabs who used the pretext that they hate Jews because of Zionism?”
You keep repeating this over and over. I honestly don’t care what you and other Zionists believe and how ingrained the Zionist propaganda is in you. I’ll repeat my response one last time.
The historical fact, not My opinion, is the arabs started their riots and the killing of Jews after the League of Nations together with England, decided that Palestine is going to be a homeland for Jews. They decided this because they went along with the Jewish Zionists. So right before this period Arabs were not rioting or killing Jews. This is historical facts. So it comes out that their extreme hatred to Jews comes from their opposition to Zionism.
I really must thank you for explaining your position on Zionism. I always knew how bad Zionism was, but I never knew to this degree. I now know that Zionists believe in terrorism and feel terrorism is a justified means to get to your political objectives. That now the Zionists in Israel are just like their counterparts in the Arab world, namely the PLO, Hamas, Hizbullah, etc.
Mods -my posts above please.
Health,
” It’s funny how you justify any evil things anybody has ever done, as long as it is in the name of Zionism. Wake up, if you condone terrorism, even if it’s collateral damage terrorism, you are no better than the terrorists!”
If by terrorism you mean “Defending yourself against violent enemies using violence that sometimes causes civilian deaths” then yeah I believe that is sometimes necessary. According to your definition of Terrorism just about anyone who has fought in any war is a Terrorist then though.
The fact is the early Zionists made reasonable efforts to avoid civilian casualties (which is hard when you are fighting an enemy-like the Arabs that hides behind them) while the Muslim terrorists make civilian casualties their express goal. That is the difference and most reasonable people see it that way.
You said,
“the arabs started their riots and the killing of Jews after the League of Nations together with England, decided that Palestine is going to be a homeland for Jews. “
So what? And the Germans only starting killing Jews after the Jewish led Bolshevick revolution took over Russia and its influence started being felt all over Europe.
You said,
” My post was even if these arabs were terrorists, unless they are shooting directly at you at that second, it’s morally wrong to play policeman. This is called vigilantism.”
Again, Your complete lack of knowledge of the historical realities in E”Y of that time become apparent. The British REFUSED to assist the Jews, There was NO ONE to call. That left the Jews with three choices
1.Die
2. Flee
3.Warn civilians to leave because they need to clear the village of those shooting and killing the Jews below and then fighting back. They chose 3.
You said,
“That now the Zionists in Israel are just like their counterparts in the Arab world, namely the PLO, Hamas, Hizbullah, etc.”
Again you are ignoring the fact that the Arab groups make killing civilians an express goal while the Israeli’s make every reasonable effort possible not too harm civilians.
Do you really not see a distinction??
And again you bring up Samuel. Again he tried to be reasonable with the Arabs and figured that in the worst case scenario if the Arabs refused to be reasonable then the British would see that the Jews were reasonable and have the Jew’s back.
Of course he was wrong. Goyim don’t need Jews to be unreasonable in order to turn against them. T
he British didn’t stop being worried about the “Poor Arabs” and kept restricting Jewish immigration, and turning a blind eye to the constant attacks by Arabs on innocent Jews and kept refusing to assist the Jews in any way whatsoever.
Lakewood Fellow -“If by terrorism you mean “Defending yourself against violent enemies using violence that sometimes causes civilian deaths” then yeah I believe that is sometimes necessary. According to your definition of Terrorism just about anyone who has fought in any war is a Terrorist then though.”
You keep repeating yourself, just in different words. I’m not going to play this game with you much longer. Come up with a real logical defense, but I know you can’t because there isn’t one. First of all, it’s not my definition – it’s the Worlds’. This wasn’t a war with a legitimate country defending themselves. This was a band of terrorists, who had no legitimacy, fighting those who opposed them politically with no regard for human life esp. that of innocent civilains.
“The fact is the early Zionists made reasonable efforts to avoid civilian casualties (which is hard when you are fighting an enemy-like the Arabs that hides behind them) while the Muslim terrorists make civilian casualties their express goal. That is the difference and most reasonable people see it that way.”
No, you can Not consider yourself from the humans who are reasonable. The reasonable Historians have called these Zionist groups – Terrorists. I know – it must be because they hate Jews.
And your lie that they made reasonable efforts is beyond the pale. How about Not bombing marketplaces where innocent people will get killed or hurt and figure out another way to get rid of your enemies?
“So what? And the Germans only starting killing Jews after the Jewish led Bolshevick revolution took over Russia and its influence started being felt all over Europe.”
I never said the arabs were justified in killing of all Jews, but that it was Zionism that started them on their recent (100 years or so) extreme hatred of Jews!
“Again, Your complete lack of knowledge of the historical realities in E”Y of that time become apparent. The British REFUSED to assist the Jews, There was NO ONE to call. That left the Jews with three choices
1.Die
2. Flee
3.Warn civilians to leave because they need to clear the village of those shooting and killing the Jews below and then fighting back. They chose 3.”
Yes, if you have no choice and you are able to flee -then you must. This wasn’t Germany were they couldn’t leave. So since you believe like all Zionists, that Israel is your country, that they had the moral right to destroy their enemies, you have no problem with them becoming terrorists. This is exactly what the arabs say – we have no choice but to have an armed struggle with Israel to get to our political objectives and therefore they justify Terrorism. You must agree with this kind of philosophy because you just stated that it was Ok for the Early Zionists to have it!
“Again you are ignoring the fact that the Arab groups make killing civilians an express goal while the Israeli’s make every reasonable effort possible not too harm civilians.
Do you really not see a distinction??”
Of course there is a distinction, but that doesn’t take these Early Zionists out of the category of Terrorists. They fall into that category acc. to, not My definition, but the World’s definition of Terrorism!
“And again you bring up Samuel. Again he tried to be reasonable with the Arabs and figured that in the worst case scenario if the Arabs refused to be reasonable then the British would see that the Jews were reasonable and have the Jew’s back.
Of course he was wrong. Goyim don’t need Jews to be unreasonable in order to turn against them. The British didn’t stop being worried about the “Poor Arabs” and kept restricting Jewish immigration, and turning a blind eye to the constant attacks by Arabs on innocent Jews and kept refusing to assist the Jews in any way whatsoever.”
They were worried about the Arabs because they had already sided with the Zionist Jews in their foreign policy. So, just like what the Zionist Samuel did, they tried to appease them with limiting of Jewish immigration. Because you decided what their intentions were – e/o now has to believe you?!? If you have any proof that the British at that time were Antisemitic, besides what it says in your Zionist Doctrine, feel free to post it.
I don’t know that the British turned a blind eye to arab attacks -Do you have any proof to that or should I (LOL) take your word for it?
Health, how about you move to Turkey and start setting up the logistics.
Health, how about you move to Turkey and start setting up the logistics?
Can you take kanoi and abra cadabra with you? Set up your own welfare state that relies on the Muslims to pay you.
‘Cause that’s not sinas chinom at all, right? Only being anti-Zionist is sinas chinom.
Sinas chinom? It’s the truth isn’t it? You believe that the Torah tells you to live on the charity of others and learn full time rather than to work and support a family. True or not?
Sinas chinom? It’s the truth isn’t it? You believe that the Torah tells you to live on the charity of others and learn full time rather than to work and support a family. True or not?
I do. Can’t speak for anyone else.
Health,
You said,
“The reasonable Historians have called these Zionist groups – Terrorists. I know – it must be because they hate Jews.”
Yeah the media isn’t biased against Jews, i’m just paranoid.
You said,
“How about Not bombing marketplaces where innocent people will get killed or hurt and figure out another way to get rid of your enemies?”
Do you have any other ideas on how to destroy an enemy that plans and puts together attacks in bases located in civilian areas in order to make them harder to get to? America to this day in Iraq and afganistan has a hard time with it…and that’s with modern technology
You said
“This wasn’t a war with a legitimate country defending themselves. This was a band of terrorists, who had no legitimacy, fighting those who opposed them politically with no regard for human life esp. that of innocent civilains.”
No it was a bunch of Jews who had decided to settle peacefully in E”Y defending themselves while trying to avoid civilian casualties whenever possible.(They warned the civilians in Deir Yassin!) against Arabs who were trying to drive them out by killing them, men woman and children,
How you can equate this with a Muslim saying he is going to kill a bus or plane load etc. of innocent civilians if he doesn’t get his way is beyond me!
The Arabs weren’t people who disagreed politically with the Jews, they were telling them to either move or die, and actively started killing innocent Jewish settlers.
You said,
“Yes, if you have no choice and you are able to flee -then you must. This wasn’t Germany were they couldn’t leave.”
Even according to you the Jews had at least the same rights to live peacefully in Israel as the Arabs did.
Why should Jews be forced to flee their villages (actually using that policy all Jews should have just left E”Y)because the Arabs decide to shoot at them?
Would you apply this if someone was shooting at your house and their were no police around?
You said,
“I don’t know that the British turned a blind eye to arab attacks -Do you have any proof to that or should I (LOL) take your word for it?”
Read a history book. Even the British do not deny this.
Health,
You said,
“but that doesn’t take these Early Zionists out of the category of Terrorists. They fall into that category acc. to, not My definition, but the World’s definition of Terrorism!”
So if an early Zionist killed a civilian by accident when defending himself against a murderous enemy committed to his destruction and that hides behind civilians, he is a “Terrorist”
but when America drops a 3 ton cluster bomb on downtown Baghdad trying to get Saddam it’s just a sad part of a necessary war…..
Ahh the “world’s” definition!
BTW What does that even mean? Something you saw in some wiki article??
You said,
“If you have any proof that the British at that time were Antisemitic, besides what it says in your Zionist Doctrine, feel free to post it.”
The fact they were busy limiting everything the Jews could do, from immigration, to defending themselves against the Arabs, to Davening out loud by the Kosel, tells it to me.
Of course you believe the British and Arabs LOVED Jews if only the Jews weren’t such Zionists then everything would be GREAT!
Kind of like the maskilim said if only the Jews wouldn’t look so different then things would be great…
With all do respect you seriously should learn a bit of history before you reach such strong feelings about historical events. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about here.
“Sinas chinom? It’s the truth isn’t it? You believe that the Torah tells you to live on the charity of others and learn full time rather than to work and support a family. True or not?
I do. Can’t speak for anyone else. “
Not sure how you can call yourself a Torah Jew, but I guess people can rationalize anything. The Torah teaches us that if you don’t teach your children a trade, you teach them to steal. Is that what you are doing? Not to mention the fact that by not working and living off everyone else, you are perpetuating the anti-semitic canard about Jews.
Finally, if everyone took your advice and didn’t work, please explain to me where you would get money to live from?
I have no problem with Jews learning Torah full time, as long you have a WILLING person ready to support you. If not, you are just a shnorrer living off the backs of everyone else.
Eizeh shtuyot. I’ve already posted the Rambam who says that not working and only learning and relying on the public is a most honorable and noble thing to do.
Also, there is no such anti-semitic canard about jews. The canard is that we do work and do outdo everyone and get all the money. The canard you refer to is an anti-religious canard started by other jews, who in truth are very similar to anti semites in many ways.
And if everyone would do like them, then G-d would still figure out a way to feed us, as the Rambam says, that when a person becomes like shevet levi, they don’t need a chelek in the land to earn a living because Hashem is their chelek.
I have no problem with you not learning full time (I certainly don’t learn full time), as long as you are willing to keep the Torah, which includes supporting talmidei chachomim and not being a mevazeh talmid chochom.
For some reason my responses didn’t get posted. Don’t know why…..
Actually one did. The other didnt. Mods. Why didn’t you post it?
I know it’s useless to argue with PBA and his friends, but for everybody esle’s info: Rambam did not hold that it applies to ganze Klal Yisroel. And if somebody wants to say otherwise, the S.A. for sure does not pasken like that (O.Ch. 156). Plus, how come the Rosh Yeshivos in Europe in the olden days were not telling everybody just to learn and not worry about parnossah?
Ganze Klal Yisroel is not learning all day, so popa is right. For the minority of Jews who do learn all day (and it is only a small minority of Jews unfortunately), for them the Rambam certainly does apply.
mdd: People also ignore the other Rambam where he calls it a terrible thing to learn off of communal money…
Kwaiker(Joe), the parnossah mentioned in the Rambam’s havtochah is not squeezing money out of the unwilling public and causing a major Chillul HaShem. If the Israeli public did not mind, it would be fine.
Sam2, we don’t pasken like that Rambam. Look in Hilchos Talmud Torah in Y.D., in the Shach there.
The Halachah is that you are nowadays ALLOWED to live off Tzedakah to learn (see the Ramah and Shach in Hilchos Talmud Torah).
truthsharer -“Health, how about you move to Turkey and start setting up the logistics.”
Put your money where your mouth is. Get me a million and I’ll start.
mdd: A lot of Poskim explain why we don’t hold like the Rambam. I agree that he’s a fairly minority opinion in the Rishonim and was certainly rejected by the Achronim in this. But my point is that one Rambam reveals P’shat in the other. The tremendous amount in which the final Rambam in Shemittah is taken out of context is, frankly, insulting to the Rambam’s Shittah.
Lakewood Fellow -“Yeah the media isn’t biased against Jews, i’m just paranoid.”
Why when I make a point your response is always illogical?
This wasn’t the media -these were historians. Do you even know what a historian is?
“Do you have any other ideas on how to destroy an enemy that plans and puts together attacks in bases located in civilian areas in order to make them harder to get to? America to this day in Iraq and afganistan has a hard time with it…and that’s with modern technology”
Yes, many, and I’m not even an war expert. Again your Negious blinds you to the fact that was terrorism. It’s ok in your mind to be terrorists as long as the terrorists are on your side. And again you equate a legitimate country during a war to some Zionist terrorists.
“No it was a bunch of Jews who had decided to settle peacefully in E”Y defending themselves while trying to avoid civilian casualties whenever possible.(They warned the civilians in Deir Yassin!) against Arabs who were trying to drive them out by killing them, men woman and children,
How you can equate this with a Muslim saying he is going to kill a bus or plane load etc. of innocent civilians if he doesn’t get his way is beyond me!”
I’m not equating them, but they are both terrorism, just one type is worse than the other. It’s beyond me how you justify killing of innocent civilains just because they were close to the enemy.
“The Arabs weren’t people who disagreed politically with the Jews, they were telling them to either move or die, and actively started killing innocent Jewish settlers.”
At the beginning they were, but then it became an armed struggle.
“Even according to you the Jews had at least the same rights to live peacefully in Israel as the Arabs did.
Why should Jews be forced to flee their villages (actually using that policy all Jews should have just left E”Y)because the Arabs decide to shoot at them?
Would you apply this if someone was shooting at your house and their were no police around?”
You must not read my posts before you respond. I already told you that if s/o is shooting at you in your house -you have all the right in the world to shoot back. This isn’t what happened here. These Zionist terrorists decided to play policeman and take the law into their own hand. If they would have just killed the arab terrorists, this wouldn’t have made them more than Vigilantees.
But they didn’t just do that, they killed innocent civilains and therefore are Terrorists!
“Read a history book. Even the British do not deny this.”
I asked you for proof and you tell me read a book. This isn’t called proof. Proof is saying you can find it in this book -on this and this page.
I’m beginning to get the feeling that you’re not your typical MO guy that went to college, but that you went to regular Yeshiva and somewhere down the road you went off. I getting this because your responses are very similar to avg. Yeshivishe responses.
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