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Daas Yachid: D??????? ?? ?
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Not sure what any of this has to do with my question. In any case, this entire sugya deals with those who denigrate Torah scholars. However, at the end of the sugya (which DY conveniently forgets to post), it states that the case of considering someone an apikores for this SPECIFICALLY refers to Menashe ben Chizkiyahu, whose deeds denigrated the Torah itself.
So much for your proof…..
Ifti, we pasken that anybody who says that is an apikores. We are not going to start a discussion here if chazir is ossur.
“What about the Chillul HaShem?
When a British member of academia says that their original support for the Jewish return to Zion was premised on their dream that through it would come about a new biblical covenant with the world and instead all that we got was this … sad secular state.
THAT’S CHILLUL HASHEM
When the Arab countries have said of all the reasons for their opposition to the state of Israel, the single most serious one is the degenerate morality that the state flaunts and foists on their region.
THAT’S CHILLUL HASHEM
R’ Shlomo Wolbe was sitting in a miklat in Be’er Yaakov at the beginning of the six day war and the Jordanian shells were landing close by. Amidst the commotion and shutter caused by the near hits, those sitting near R’ Wolbe heard him calmly saying to himself that he is willingly mekabel upon himself missah [to die] if through this would affect the bitul of the Chillul Hashem which is Tzionism
About Time, one wrong does not justify a different one.
mdd wrote: “Kanoi, if we were talking about a country which gives out these financial benefits and the general population does not mind people taking them to stay in kollel, I would agree with you. If the general public objects and has ta’anos, then it’s Chillul HaShem and hisgarus be’Umos. “
The existence of the settlements is hisgarus be’umos according to most of the world. The idea of a Jewish State is hisgarus be’umos. So if you are going to bend to what everyone else thinks, you won’t have anything.
It’s all understood that this state and what it represents is one big Chillul Hashem
… need one say more!?!
Ari-free, we have a chiyuv to avoid Chillul HaShem and hisgarus be’Umos. Period.
ari-free, if that’s the case, then doesn’t the fact that you want to legislate full time learning as the norm and no army service kind of legitimize Israel as a Jewish state?
Mdd, when Eretz Yisroel is secularized, nebach, and a group legally uses the system to salvage as much kedushah from the tuah as possible, it’s not a chillul hashem, it’s a kiddush Hashem. The state is a cheftza of hisgarus ba’umos, not a minority who simply want to learn torah and serve Hashem in peace.
TS, if it was the norm across the board, that would be one thing, but when the whole state is secular and merely a small percentage are learning full time, the state is a chillul Hashem.
Mr. Berlin -“health- you are just proving what i said.You live in an imaginary world that looks at anything beyond your “arba amos’ as ‘treif”.”
You so did Not even begin to address my points. Perhaps you are the one in the dream world?
“It is too tiresome to regurgitate the old argument about zionism ,the medinah, the second world war…etc…I look at facts- and all within the confines of a halachic/jewish society.”
That’s right – my point wasn’t about all the old arguments – my point was what the MO’s by joining Lapid are going to do with Judaism in the here and now. You can call it a Halachic society, but shortly it won’t be. Making Gerrim acc. to reform or conservative is Not having having a Halachic society. Having ball games and the transportation to these games on Shabbos is Not having a Halachic society. I think your hatred to anything against the Medina is blinding you to the truth. I can’t have a point because look how Frum the Medina is. That Frumkeit has nothing to do with the Medina -it has to do with the Charedim in the Medina. And now all the good laws protecting Frumkeit made over the last 60 years, by the Charedim, are going to start being erased by the Lapids and the MO’s/Mizrachists like Bennett. You’ve been brainwashed way too long for you even to understand my point. But keep screaming “Fanatic” – “Iranian” or whatever, it really proves you are right. Your wonderful Zionist philosophy that Zionism is part of Torah is starting to unravel in front of your eyes and you can’t believe it!
health and all the other anti-israel posters: first of all, I have no hatred against anyone-yes, even against the anti-zionists ,as long as they don’t conspire wth our enemies like Iran.I live amongst the anti-zionists. They have their views, I have mine.
Asv far as the medinah, I said a long time ago that history will determine the winner. The Sadducees, the Karaim and others disappeared and it was rabbinic Judaism that survived. Same today. Orthodox Judaims has survived many centuries and continues to rebound. None of us will be here in a hundred years time- those living then will determine who is the winner.
jechi hamelech hamoshiach leolom vo-ed!
DY, is one allowed to est treif to salvage kedushah? Besides, learning full-time, while definetly a huge mitsvah, is not called “salvaging kedushah”.
Mr. berlin -“health and all the other anti-israel posters: first of all, I have no hatred against anyone-yes, even against the anti-zionists ,as long as they don’t conspire wth our enemies like Iran.I live amongst the anti-zionists. They have their views, I have mine.”
I don’t actually know what’s in your heart, but your posts spew hatred against Anti-zionists.
“Asv far as the medinah, I said a long time ago that history will determine the winner. The Sadducees, the Karaim and others disappeared and it was rabbinic Judaism that survived. Same today. Orthodox Judaims has survived many centuries and continues to rebound. None of us will be here in a hundred years time- those living then will determine who is the winner.”
My problem is Not the outcome, but the here and now. The Charedim are going to suffer because of this Medina and it’s beyond me how the MO (who claim to be Frum) are a big part of this!
The Charedim are going to suffer because of this Medina and it’s beyond me how
Why will they suffer? They are not going to be drafted.
GAW -“Why will they suffer? They are not going to be drafted.”
Because unfortunately, some people are poor and they need social programs to survive and this will be taken away from them if they don’t sign up to the IDF. Some people don’t have the Koachos to come to the US to Schnorr. They are making some people choose between their religious convictions and putting food on the table.
some people are poor and they need social programs to survive
Why? Let them go on Kupah & Tamchui? Other Yidden should support them.
GAW, if few people work normal-paying jobs, who’s going to pay for the tamchui?
health- as I said, I am reluctant to regurgitate old controversies, as people will keep to their views.
second, my comments never spew hatred against anti-zionists. I sure disagree with their views but I live amongst them and have very cordial relationships with all.
As far as your concern with present day Eretz Yisroel, please excuse my stupidity, but isn’t this exactly what “sharing the burden” means? The ones who espouse this view see their hardearned moeny being drained for -what they thinkj- people who don’t participate in the general welfare of the land. They are all concerned about their money, security, the sacrifices that they make and that they- in their views- others don’t share. so, your concerns about the chareidim sufferning- well, the other side that they suffer plenty with their sacrifices of money and casualties.
Asv far as the medinah, I said a long time ago that history will determine the winner. The Sadducees, the Karaim and others disappeared and it was rabbinic Judaism that survived. Same today. Orthodox Judaims has survived many centuries and continues to rebound. None of us will be here in a hundred years time- those living then will determine who is the winner.
The Kareties are still around, I think there 40,000 of them around
Mr. Berlin -“As far as your concern with present day Eretz Yisroel, please excuse my stupidity, but isn’t this exactly what “sharing the burden” means? The ones who espouse this view see their hardearned moeny being drained for -what they thinkj- people who don’t participate in the general welfare of the land. They are all concerned about their money, security, the sacrifices that they make and that they- in their views- others don’t share. so, your concerns about the chareidim sufferning- well, the other side that they suffer plenty with their sacrifices of money and casualties.”
The Chilonim pay taxes -this is what e/o does -it’s not called suffering. Charedim will start suffering due to the lack of basic necessities. As far as “sharing the burden” -the Charedim do more than their fair share -learning protects e/o. There would be a lot less casualties in the IDF if more people were learning, but the Chilonim and Mizrachists are ignorant in this. It’s Not my job to teach them. Maybe this guy Piron, a Rabbi, will now teach them how Torah protects as Education Minister.
And again you missed my point before -I said this “sharing the burden” is just a smoke screen to rid Israel of any Jewish religion -that’s why they want Charedim in the army to Shmad them; that’s why they want to change the marriage laws and the conversion laws. Stop being fooled by the Lapids and Bennetts, even though they are good Orators. Hitler was a great orator -it’s just PR; nothing real, just fluff. This is a war against the Torah – stop keeping your head in the sand.
Op-Ed: ‘Et Tu Bennett’ – A Hareidi Yeshiva Student’s View
Published: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 11:50 PM
Rafi Newman
The writer is a 23 year old Yeshiva Student learning in the Mir Yeshiva in Jerusalem. He made aliya from the US in 1999 with his family.
In Middle Eastern countries a similar tax called Jizya was leveled on the Jews. It was an extra tolerance and protection tax levied upon all non-Muslims, called Dhimmi.
By paying the extra tax, the wandering Jew was supposed to be tolerated, but were nevertheless incessantly subject to openly anti-Semitic remarks – and he felt himself lucky if the reactions were limited to remarks. A few notable examples:
“They are, all of them, born with raging fanaticism in their hearts, just as the Bretons and the Germans are born with blond hair. I would not be in the least bit surprised if these people would not some day become deadly to the human race.” (Lettres de Memmius a Ciceron, 1771)
Beyond this, the partnership between Lapid and Bennet is nothing short of unnatural, because contrary to what many may think, there is a natural synergy between haredim and the settlers. Both live their lives sacrificing for their ideals, though the subject of that idealism may be different, and both are victims of the left-wing secular.
It is the idealism of the National religious and hareidim that is a thorn in the side of the secular post-Zionists. In stark contrast to this idealism, Yair Lapid treats anything holy with contempt. He wishes to extinguish the light unto the nations.
To stop the bullying, Bennett has joined the bully to scapegoat the other victim, the hareidim, for everything that is wrong with this country.
Bennett joins Lapid in blaming the hareidim with the claim that if only they were in the army, if only they learned mathematics and English, if only they flooded the workplace, then housing would be affordable, university would be inexpensive, and everyone would earn much more money and pay fewer taxes.
This would be laughable if it were not so tragic. Though many blame the hareidim for not agreeing to join with Bayit Yehudi, MK Ayelet Shaked openly admitted that the Jewish Home never sat down with the haredi parties – in contradiction to MK Uri Ariel (Bayit Yehudi) who claims that Shas refused to talk with them – to discuss a solution to the matter.
We feel that he betrayed us, do not be so sure that he will not betray you.
About time: Interesting commentary. However, I think you are a bit confused about “Fiscus Judaicus”. This was not started by the Romans to wipe out Torah. It was done as a retaliation against Jews, who revolted against Roman rule. Honestly, what would you expect? I’m not defending it, but this was a typical response by the victors in that time. I fail to see what this has to do with the draft. The chilonim want you to share the burden. You can’t understand that? Suppose they proposed that for one year, they don’t work or serve in the army, and you take their place. Would you agree? If not, why would you expect them to agree to the current situation?
ifti99:
“Kanoi: No, it is preferable to live off perfectly legal government programs and learn full time than to work.
I totally totally disagree with this attitude on so many levels that I can’t even begin.”
Nothing personal, but if ifti99 disagrees with an attitude and the Gedolim support, I’m gonna go with the Gedolim.
“Do you realize that in Israel and America, the view of chareidi life gets more negative every day?”
Again, we will not compromise on what we believe just to improve our image.
“refusing to do anything to help other Jews other than themselves.”
Speaking motzei shaim ra about hundreds of thousands of Jews is not something you want on your cheshbon; kindly stop doing so.
“Your other comments like ” The Chareidim have just as much of a right to the land as the Zionists do. Would you be singing the same tune if the Chareidim passed a law that nobody could go to work?” are even more insane. Is that really what you want? Pass a law that no one should work?”
What is up with you and twisting my words? I did not in any way suggest that we should “Pass a law that no one should work”; I said that kicking anybody who want to learn full-time out of Eretz Yisroel is as ridiculous as kicking out anybody who works full-time.
mdd:
“it’s Chillul HaShem and hisgarus be’Umos.”
Again, says you. Personally, I’m gonna go with the Gedolim’s definition of chillul Hashem and hisgarus be’Umos.
Kanoi (what a self righteous description!):Nothing personal, but if ifti99 disagrees with an attitude and the Gedolim support, I’m gonna go with the Gedolim.
Good for you. Tell me something Kanoi. Who, exactly is a “gadol”? Were they elected? Appointed? Or just someone whom you agree with?
If other rabbis (most, actually) and the Talmud believe that work is absolutely preferable than living off tzedakah, why would anyone believe otherwise?
These same gedolim were the ones advising Jews not to leave Europe during the 1930s when Jabotinsky begged them to leave.
One more thing. You criticize the state and every Jew who doesn’t think like you. Well, that’s your perogative, but don’t you feel just a wee bit hypocritical taking money from this same state and from these same Jews that you hate?
ifti99:
“Good for you. Tell me something Kanoi. Who, exactly is a “gadol”?”
R’ Shteinman.
“If other rabbis (most, actually) and the Talmud believe that work is absolutely preferable than living off tzedakah, why would anyone believe otherwise?”
Obviously they believe that living off government programs while learning full-time is not what the Gemara was referring to.
“These same gedolim were the ones advising Jews not to leave Europe during the 1930s when Jabotinsky begged them to leave.”
And finally, you show your true colors. You do not care what the Gedolim say; you think you know better. You think you are smarter, or “more worldly”, than they are. You think you know what Hashem wants, not them.
You are wrong.
“You criticize… every Jew who doesn’t think like you.”
Where did I do that?
Let’s correct modox brainwashed education
“If other rabbis (most, actually) and the Talmud believe that work is absolutely preferable than living off tzedakah, why would anyone believe otherwise?”
Ever heard of the mapai red card?
Ever heard of the histadrut?
When Weitzman visited in the mid 20s, he said the most impressive settlement was Bnei Brak
The original chareidi settlers were all small farmers, shop keepers, and businessmen.
And they were chased out.
By whom?
R’ Nachman Bulman started a frum anglo community in ’80s in Migdal Emek with a ratio of 3 earner: 1 learner.
He requested the secular and mizrachi parties for help. The hypocrites all couldn’t care less.
“These same gedolim were the ones advising Jews not to leave Europe during the 1930s when Jabotinsky begged them to leave.”
R’ Yisroel Salanter, the Kelmer maggid, S. Zeitlen the frum journalist, the Torah Temimah, R’ Elchonon Wasserman all foretold the coming catastrophe.
What was the alternative?
Palestine?
Where the Jewish Agency cajoled the British not to let them in?
“RAK B’DAM TIHYE LANU HA’AETZ, Shed your blood cheerfully, for your blood is cheap. But for your blood, the Land will be ours.”
Moisville, Argentina?
where the Jews have long since assimilated?
The US?
Where R’ J.B. was so dispirited in the ’30s, that he wanted to go BACK to Europe?
Ah, yes, Jabotinsky
who tore up his zionist membership card in ’31,
was treacherously marginalized by mizrachi’s concordat with Ben Gurion in ’35,
and secular as he was, toward the end felt more in kindred with the gedolim
“One more thing. You criticize the state and every Jew who doesn’t think like you. Well, that’s your perogative, but don’t you feel just a wee bit hypocritical taking money from this same state and from these same Jews that you hate?”
After they sucked everything from the Jewish people and give back a pittance?
In 1976, in Tradition Magazine! there was an article that stated that if not for the State of Israel, tens or hundreds of millions would have gone to Jewish education, communal institutions and yeshivos…
Knaves..
I am quite a few years distance from 23
Kanoi,you say that you actually don’t know the teretz — you just rely on the Gedolim who hold like that. What I can tell you is that there are ma’ases in divrei Chazal where people got punished for listening to Gedolim when it was wrong. Start with the wife of Rabi Chaninah ben Tradion(Avodah Zorah, around 17B-18A).
Teretz? What’s the kasha? You decided that tasking government programs is a chillul Hashem, and that’s simply not true.
There are ma’ases in Tanach where people were punished for arguing with the Gedolilm… start with Korah va’Adoso.
Kanoi, if you decided to follow the ways of daniela, Toi and some others, we can just stop the discussion.
Huh?
“Good for you. Tell me something Kanoi. Who, exactly is a “gadol”?”
“Kanoi,you say that you actually don’t know the teretz — you just rely on the Gedolim who hold like that”
Kanoi, You are every bit wise to rely on those who have the expertise in life, meaning, and the purpose of it all.
Be not the slightest fazed. These characters and charalatans who grovel for anyone who pulls rank on them and heed the word of any half-baked “expert” with a post-graduate degree are the last to preach about thinking for oneself.
Well, the final coalition agreement on drafting Chareidim has been signed and sealed and it is worse than anticipated.
As agreed upon by Netanyahu and written into the coalition agreement by Yesh Atid MK Shelah, “the state would focus on increasing the number of Haredi men in the IDF, particularly in combat roles, starting at as young an age as possible. It also gives the IDF first right of refusal of a potential inductee. The army, not the yeshiva student, would decide whether he goes to the military or to the civilian national service.”
So, in fact, civilian service is NOT an option for yeshiva students (unless the IDF decides it has enough yeshiva talmidim drafted and it at its own discretion decides to allow a specific yeshiva bochor do civilian service rather than army service.) And the proposed law states that 2/3 of Chareidim serving must be in the army and not in civilian service.
Furthermore, out of 12,000 18 year-old bochorim each year who currently go to yeshiva, the new proposed law will only allow 1,800 go to yeshiva while forcibly drafting the remaining 10,200 18 year-old yeshiva bochorim who otherwise wished to go to yeshiva.
Who will get to choose who the “lucky” 1,800 are and who the unlucky 10,200 are is anyones guess. Will the government give more exemptions to yeshivas it favors and less exemptions to yeshivas it disfavors? Most likely. A Cantonist Russian system comes to mind and the forced conscription of the poor for the benefit of the rich.
Oh, and in terms of civilian service, “Shelah’s plan emphasizes positions in security and rescue services such as the police, fire departments and the ZAKA disaster victim identification unit. It does not focus on community service, which Shelah sees as having little benefit.” So claims that civilian service (for the few the army even allows to choose civilian service rather than being forcibly drafted) will include Bikur Cholim type service is wholly incorrect.
And regarding the Arab citizens of Israel? They remain completely exempt of any mandatory service or conscription. Arab citizens are treated better by the State than Chareidi citizens. The discrimination is glaring.
The medine is the ultimate golus Jew, a debased shlimazel who succeeds at nothing, stripped of his gaon Yaakov . A little bent old survivor amus”h of the Churban, who lives in Williamsburg or Stamford Hill or Antwerp or in a Torah neighborhood in EY , whom these Zionists deride, and who truly did his share in rebuilding the Jewish people after the war, is the true “new Jew” along with his ehrlicher descendants
From Zionism shall spring forth controllers of gambling in Bucharest, Prague, and Budapest, drug dealers in Thailand, so called intelligence operatives in Central America covering for drug warlords and jails full of plain petty criminals.
I would not be surprised to see the whole country collapse.
“From Zionism shall spring forth controllers of gambling in Bucharest, Prague, and Budapest, drug dealers in Thailand, so called intelligence operatives in Central America covering for drug warlords and jails full of plain petty criminals. “
The arrogance among some of you is simply astounding. And I say this as someone whose relatives came to this country way before most of you in the 18th century. You think all Zionists are gamblers and drug dealers? Honestly, you are same type of narrow minded bigot who believes all chareidim are lazy shnoorers who won’t lift a finger to help anyone other than themselves. Haing these bigotted views only increases the animosity that non-charedim have for chareidim. Is that really what you want? I guarantee you this will end badly. You have had ample time to work out a solution on the draft. Instead, your response has been like the Arabs… NO NO NO! OK, what do you think will happen now? Think chareidim will go to jail instead? Ever been to jail? You are going to have a very rude awakening.
BTW, I do not consider myself to be a Zionist. However, the hatred some of you have toward anyone who doesn’t agree with you is just plain wrong.
Of those whose families came to EY in the 18th and 19th century, the vast majority disagree with you and are the strongest anti-zionists. And it is doubtful the zionists will risk starting a civil war by attempting to jail thousands and thousands of Chareidi draft-dodgers.
“Honestly, you are same type of narrow minded bigot who believes all chareidim are lazy shnoorers who won’t lift a finger to help anyone other than themselves.”
So you admit you are narrow minded bigot.
YOU yourself wrote this on this thread-
“All I will say is this: If you truly believe that what Hashem wants is for all Chareidi Jews to refuse to work (legally) and just live on tzedakah, we live in different worlds. I guess you can try to justify your decision any way you like, twisting and turning whomever supports this untenable position, but anyone who has more than a eighth grade education will realize that this is totally unsustainable. Do you realize that in Israel and America, the view of chareidi life gets more negative every day? All we see are people who demonstrate against other religious Jews in Ramat Bet Shemesh, shnooring money to marry off their children, and refusing to do anything to help other Jews other than themselves.”
“Haing these bigotted views only increases the animosity that non-charedim have for chareidim. Is that really what you want? I guarantee you this will end badly Haing these bigotted views only increases the animosity that non-charedim have for chareidim. Is that really what you want? I guarantee you this will end badly”
Every secular knows precisely the opposite.
Too many chareidim have been living for too long between two worlds without choosing sides that has brought this on their heads.
I predicted these developments months and years ago.
I guarantee this is the beginning of the salvation.
“However, the hatred some of you have toward anyone who doesn’t agree with you is just plain wrong.”
I stand up (against any self-interest) for what is right.
Welcome to the club. You, ROB, etc. when faced with articulately with truth hide in your smokescreens.
“Of those whose families came to EY in the 18th and 19th century, the vast majority disagree with you and are the strongest anti-zionists.”
You’d be surprised. You probably live in a bubble if you think eight generations believe exactly the same way.
” And it is doubtful the zionists will risk starting a civil war by attempting to jail thousands and thousands of Chareidi draft-dodgers. “
Watch. Chareidim are a minority with no support anywhere in Israel other than themselves. They have no monetary or military power. I’m not advocating this, but it will be a lot easier than you think. Believe me, the vast majority of the country will not be neutral; they will be enthusiastically on the sides of the government.
There is no doubt that the majority of Yidden from families that came to EY 100-200 years ago are against the Zionists today. And the zionists wouldn’t dare jailing thousands of Chareidi draft dodgers. 1) They don’t have the resources for so many Chareidim in jail, where to put them or pay for their incarceration 2) They know they would have massive riots throughout the entire country with traffic and all normal life (of chilonim and everyone) if not grounding to a halt then being massively interrupted 3) it would risk severe international condemnation of Israel were it to continue for more than a brief period.
ifti99:
You show very little yiras shamayim with your posts. Who are you to argue with gedolim of our generation. They are the people who know and will guide us what to do. You say that the charedim are the minority and have no monetary or military power. You seem quite misguided. The charedim are the ones that are learning Hashems Torah. They have all the possibal backing that they need by the Torah. Those fighting the Torah on the other hand have no one with them. They are living in a daze thinking that fighting the Torah will get them somewhere. This is a fight AGAINST the Torah by the zionists. It is clear which is the Torahdik view.
Actually I want to see the “lucky” full 12,000 all lifted out of poverty. Most well integrated into the Israeli economy and the others as a well supported modern version of Shevet Levi.
No one should have to serve a 40 year enlistment in Nachal Anyyim (ranks of the poor).
“Watch. Chareidim are a minority with no support anywhere in Israel other than themselves. They have no monetary or military power. I’m not advocating this, but it will be a lot easier than you think.”
Im so scared.
please be the advocate
About Time:
Don’t worry, I’m not the type to be fazed by a few harsh words. I will continue to follow the opinion of the Gedolai Yisroel, not some anonymous bloggers. But I do appreciate the encouragement.
ifti99:
“The arrogance among some of you is simply astounding. And I say this as someone whose relatives came to this country way before most of you in the 18th century. You think all Zionists are gamblers and drug dealers?”
AT never made such a blanket statement. He simply said that “From Zionism shall spring forth controllers of gambling in Bucharest, Prague, and Budapest, drug dealers in Thailand,” etc. Which is not too much of stretch; after all (as R’ Aharon Feldman points out in Eye of the Storm), Israel has a significant mafia and is the world’s number one exporter of prostitution; not quite a “light unto the nations”.
“You have had ample time to work out a solution on the draft. Instead, your response has been like the Arabs… NO NO NO!”
The Zionists have had ample time to work out a solution with the Palestinians. Instead, their response has been like the Arabs… NO NO NO! Why? Because they don’t think there is any reasonable room for compromise. The same applies to the Chareidim; they will not compromise on what they believe to be right.
“OK, what do you think will happen now? Think chareidim will go to jail instead?”
There aren’t enough jail cells in the country for all the Chareidim. What will they do, set up ghettos? Detainment camps? How do you think that would play out in the international media?
“the hatred some of you have toward anyone who doesn’t agree with you is just plain wrong.”
You are the one here that has been lobbing false insults, accusations, and generalizations ad nauseum. Perhaps you should take a long, hard look in the mirror before parroting the same old “anybody wearing black hates his/her fellow Jews”. Being anti-zionist does not make one a sonei yisroel.
HIE:
“Who are you to argue with gedolim of our generation. They are the people who know and will guide us what to do.”
+1
“ifti99:
“The arrogance among some of you is simply astounding. And I say this as someone whose relatives came to this country way before most of you in the 18th century. You think all Zionists are gamblers and drug dealers?”
AT never made such a blanket statement. He simply said that “From Zionism shall spring forth controllers of gambling in Bucharest, Prague, and Budapest, drug dealers in Thailand,” etc. Which is not too much of stretch; after all (as R’ Aharon Feldman points out in Eye of the Storm), Israel has a significant mafia and is the world’s number one exporter of prostitution; not quite a “light unto the nations”.”
Riiiight. The light upon the nations is tens of thousands of people who work off the books, don’t pay taxes, and then come visit the United States to schoor money for chanasas kallah. You gotta love how they fit four people in a car, and after you give one or two money, two more jump out at you.How much money do you think a deserving MO guy would collect in a chareidi shul? Three shekels? Yet some chareidim have no issue criticizing every one who is not like them (like secular and MO), but have no problem taking money from them!
Funny how your little stereotype cuts both ways, doesn’t it?
“I would not be surprised to see the whole country collapse.”
Well, if the entire country followed the chareidi model of not working nor serving in the army, that’s exactly what would happen.
1. The biggest financial criminals are chilonim.
2. The Zionists passed law prevening Chareidim from working on the books and thus paying taxes.
OK ifti99 but that will now not be a “danger” any longer, due to the fantastic govt that was somehow put together. Now what will be next? Soldiers are unwanted in modern warfare, work hours are superfluous in our highly automated production lines. However these hours have to be paid – and not a pittance, either. Yet they will not increase productivity or GDP. Where do you plan to obtain the resources to finance all of this? The economy is already as squeezed as conceivably possible, increasing taxation might even decrease revenue (start-ups will move elsewhere). Social expenses have already been cut. Foreign investors will not rush to invest, especially if social turmoil increases. Please explain to us your plan.
I accidently posted this comment on somebody else’ username… mods, could you delete the previous post?
ifti99:
The light upon the nations is tens of thousands of people who are moser nefesh to learn Hashem’s Torah day and night. come hell, high water, or Zionists. Why do you insist on looking only at the negative aspect of everything the Chareidim do? Would it kill you to be dan li’kaf zchus evry once in a while?
“How much money do you think a deserving MO guy would collect in a chareidi shul?”
Again with the negative stereotypes. Just because somebody is Chareidi does not in any way mean he will not give money to somebody who is MO (although he will frequently have less money to give out).
Speaking of which, how much money do you think a deserving Chareidi guy would collect from MO with your attitude?
“Yet some chareidim have no issue criticizing every one who is not like them (like secular and MO), but have no problem taking money from them!”
What does one have to with the other? Would you take tzeddaka from a Chareidi?
“Funny how your little stereotype cuts both ways, doesn’t it?”
Oh, I’m the one with the stereotypes now? Seriously, does your contempt know no end?
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