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MDG -“It doesn’t seem to me that the Arabs are committed to our destruction. They do a lot of lip service, but the last time a sovereign Arab country attacked Israel was about 20 years ago. That was Saddam scuds, which was from a distance. They caused lots of damage, but there was no outright attack with any troops, planes, or tanks. Before that it was in the Yom Kippur war. There have been skirmishes since then, but very little in the way of attempts of destruction.”
Have you been asleep the last twenty-forty years? What do you call the Lebanon war in the 80’s? What do you call all the infatadas? What do you call all the rockets from Gaza?
Oh, this must be their love towards Israelis. If this is their love – I hate to see their aggression.
RD:
“What about all the Mizrahim and Sephardim who suffered under the Arabs and Ottomans for years?”
Again, I’m not saying that living under the Arabs was paradise. However, before 1948 they were not starting wars with the explicit intent of “driving all the Jews into the sea”, and they were not killing even close to 14,000 Jews every 65 years. I’m not saying that things between us and the Arabs used to be great, only that the founding of the Medina has made it a whole lot worse.
GAW:
Perhaps if the Chareidim had offered that at an earlier point, things would not have gotten to where they are now. But the way things are now, Lapid/Bennet will not be satisfied with a mere cutting of funds. They are out for blood.
Kanoi, I am not saying the Zionists are right generally speaking, but what they would tell you that you have to look at the whole picture, namely — that the Jews now do not have to live in Europe where they faced constant persecution, where only during the Russian Civil war(1917-1920) between 50,000 and 200,000 Jews were kilied plus Bnos Yisroel assaulted on a massive scale, Yidden wounded etc. and etc….
iirc
( most likely you were unaware of this )
Health,
notice I said “a sovereign Arab country”. Terrorist groups can cause lots of destrution of life and property, but they can hardly bring down a country, especially one that is prepared to deal with them.
MDG -“notice I said “a sovereign Arab country”. Terrorist groups can cause lots of destrution of life and property, but they can hardly bring down a country, especially one that is prepared to deal with them.”
I honestly don’t understand your differentiation. I see No difference between Hamas and any other Arab country. The difference is Israel is the one who gave Gaza to the Arabs.
They function like their own country -with Gov, army, etc.
There is the same amount of threat from these terrorists than there is from “sovereign Arab countries”.
And btw, the last I heard – Lebanon was a “sovereign Arab country” and the Lebanon war was Not on your list.
Isreal invaded Lebanon to oust the PLO.
mdd:
We could’ve all moved to America and been safe and sound.
MDG:
Nitpick all you want, but the fact is that the Arabs have put in a lot more effort (and therefore, have unfortunately been lot more successful) in the killing of Jews in the 65 years since the 1948 than they were before then.
Since the Balfour Declaration riled up the Arabs, and ever since the creation of the medina, terrorism and wars have killed and maimed many more Jews than were ever killed or maimed living under Arab or Muslim rule in a similar time period. Although things were never peachy living under their rule (after all we are in golus everywhere — whether under the Arabs, the Church or the Americans), comparative to their Jewish brethren living under Christian/European rule, the Jews living under the Arabs were much much better off. Anti-semitism there was much closer to the modern quantity of anti-semitism in Europe then to the quantity of anti-semitism in Europe between 70 CE and 1945 CE.
MDG -“Isreal invaded Lebanon to oust the PLO.”
So just because Israel started it -doesn’t make it a war?
We would have been much better under Turkey; Israel has made and keeps making foolish blunders in their security politics. They went into Lebanon to solve the PLO prob and it was replaced with Hizbullah -a much stronger enemy. They sat down with the PLO and gave them the West Bank & Gaza for peace, not only is there no peace in the West Bank, but they have Hamas ruling Gaza.
It’s amazing to me how Jews keep blindly following this idol.
And to the Zionists here – Israel biggest blunder is about to be making a Gov. with Lapid and Bennett.
They believe in Koach V’ozem Yodi, etc. and that’s why they want to draft people sitting and learning. People have to make Hishtalus, but not to have such a big army as they have now. There is no need to have Charedim there against their will. I know -they have to be there otherwise – Boo-hoo -it’s Not fair.
Actually the learning protects the Jews more than any guy with a gun -so it’s more than fair.
This is a two-fold mistake. (To draft Charedim.) 1. The Torah talks about what happens to the Klal when you say
Koach V’ozem Yodi, etc. 2. The Toechacha comes to the Klal because of Not being Omal B’torah which is impossible when they are in the army. I’m quite sure that this new Gov. that’s about to be formed will Not last too long. I hope it collapses before Hashem gives out the decrees that he wrote in the Torah that I just mentioned.
If someone suffers or if someone does not suffer, it is not according to our decisions, much less according to the arabs decision.
I respectfully request that this Kefirah be removed from the site. We are not Calvinist.
GAW:
Perhaps if the Chareidim had offered that at an earlier point, things would not have gotten to where they are now. But the way things are now, Lapid/Bennet will not be satisfied with a mere cutting of funds. They are out for blood.
1: Whose fault is that?
2: It doesn’t hurt to try.
Thank you for twisting my words into their exact opposite, thus enhancing the need for a professional English teacher to proofread each one of my posts. I’ll make sure to hire one at the next available opportunity. In the meantime please notice that I meant to say that what happens to us in this world of falsities is partially, but not completely, determined by our moral choices, and it is not at all determined by our preferences e.g. if we have chocolate or vanilla icecream, or whether we choose to be a lawyer, a plumber, or a soldier (all of them honest jobs and all of them necessary to every society). As for our enemies, they already made their (im)moral choice and have decided they are out to murder us G-d forbid, the only doubt is whether they will be successful or whether they will fail, and it is Torah, mitzvot and chessed who determine the outcome, not the IDF budget. Draft the haredim, harass those who do serve in the army (see story in today’s front page of this very website), and watch the country crumple. Mightier enemies did.
GAW:
1: Definitely the Chareidim’s.
2: Yeah it does, because they’ll just take us up on our offer, and then proceed to do whatever they were going to do anyways. It’s never smart to give ammo to your enemy.
I’ll make sure to hire one at the next available opportunity.
In order to be Mekayim this Neder, might I suggest a Jewish proofreader? That way you can also obtain the mitzva of giving parnassah to a fellow Jew.
1: Definitely the Chareidim’s.
2: Yeah it does, because they’ll just take us up on our offer, and then proceed to do whatever they were going to do anyways. It’s never smart to give ammo to your enemy.
1: I wouldn’t be so quick not to place blame on the other side. We quickly forget all of the anti-Torah laws that were passed (the most famous one being the autopsy law). There is a lot of bad blood from both sides.
2: The offer would (obviously) be conditioned on not enforcing the draft. Then it would be “constitutionalized” (requiring 2/3 majority of the MKs & a referendum to overturn).
Indeed I have already hired in the past few minutes a mothertongue english proofreader who is Jewish, but he will do the job for free.
US English, is that good enough or would you have preferred the Queen’s English? Now perhaps we can return to the discussion, and may I add he did not wish to serve in Vietnam and did not.
daniela:
“I’ll make sure to hire one at the next available opportunity.”
I have a feeling you’re about to get one for free… right haifagirl?
GAW:
1: Don’t get me wrong; I am by no means saying that the Chareidm are completely at fault for this whole mess, only that they should have realized that they wouldn’t be able to get free money forever.
2: “The offer would (obviously) be conditioned on not enforcing the draft.”
Who’s enforcing the condition, Lapid?
Who’s enforcing the condition, Lapid?
Who was stopping them when they were in the coalition? There certainly has to be the ability to negotiate and have some back and forth. Mine is an idea where both sides give something, but get something they want.
US English, is that good enough or would you have preferred the Queen’s English?
G-d save the Queen, long may she reign!
Again, it very well might have been a good idea to propose such a comprise when the Chareidim had political influence, but at this point in the game I don’t think it would solve the issue.
I don’t think it would solve the issue.
I hear, but I don’t think it would hurt. We agree to disagree.
Fair enough.
Lapid and many others in Israel wants the Chareidim in the Army and out of the Government…how does that work exactly? LOL!
Freedom is not free. It comes at a cost and with considerable mesirat nefesh.
It was the hand of G-d operating through the valiant soldiers of the IDF that ensured our victories. Not the studies of those who choose consciously not to be a part of modern Israel.
We are not prophets. How we can claim that the studies of a specific parochial group have a theurgic effect? Plus, those who make this claim ignore the fact that there are scores of Hesder yeshivot, of very high standards, whose bachurim serve valiantly and proudly in eretz kodsheinu. The learning of those in KBY, Shaalvim, Otniel, etc. is just as precious to HKBH as those who learn in the Mir, etc.
To state elaborately the obvious
either 3 year draft and reserves (even with hesder)
or
life as a chareidi/with yeshiva-kollel.
Who are now the shirkers ?
RebdonieL “Freedom is not free. It comes at a cost and with considerable mesirat nefesh. “
And for countless generations ( okay, about 150 generations if you want to count), the Bnei Yeshiva, and the Baal ha-Battim, having been paying that price. Giving up their livlihoods, and often more (soon in Eretz Yisrael it will be a crime for 18-21 boys to learn Torah, though in all fairness Israeli prisons are nicer than the Nazi or Soviet ones). for the sake of learning Torah. We might not be glamorous as filling the sky with bombers and marching into battle in fancy uniforms with drums beating and flags flying – but someone we manage to survive, and our enemies seem to end up in the “dustbin” (as one of them called it) of history.
countless generations?
OK, for countless generations you had some people dedicate themselves solely to Torah. The others did what was needed to survive.
IDF Most ‘Female Friendly’ Army in the World
Of all 18 year old females in Israel, the IDF Spokesperson said, 59% enlist in the IDF. Ninety two percent of all positions in the army are open to women (with only a few that require extraordinary physical strength off-limits). Women comprise 57% of the IDF’s officer corps among regular soldiers, and 28% of career officers. Of the top officer positions (lieutenant and higher) women comprised 15% of the total officers.
There was notable rise in the number of female soldiers who were on duty during the recent Pillar of Defense Operation, as compared to 2008’s Operation Cast Lead, the spokesperson said. More of those women have been serving in battlefield roles; over the past few years there has been a significant drop in the numbers of women assigned to secretarial and clerk roles, from 21% of all women serving in 2001 to just 13% in 2012.
The IDF Spokesperson’s Office released the numbers in time for International Women’s Day, to be commemorated on Friday.
Keren, (7/3/13)
female friendly? no way!
consider the crazily high abortion rate in this country before calling this “friendly.” How many Jewish children are killed every day because of what goes on in the IDF?In any case, if it’s really so friendly, how come so many secular females claim to be religious to get an exemption? Everyone knows they’re lying, but nobody gives a hoot. What hypocrisy!
Keren, (7/3/13)
Mr. doniel -“It was the hand of G-d operating through the valiant soldiers of the IDF that ensured our victories. Not the studies of those who choose consciously not to be a part of modern Israel.”
This is simply Apikorsus. R’ M. Salomon just said so, but even without him – did you ever learn Chumash? Ever hear of a Parsha called Im Bechuchosi? I hope these are your views and Not those of your Yeshiva – YU.
“We are not prophets. How we can claim that the studies of a specific parochial group have a theurgic effect? Plus, those who make this claim ignore the fact that there are scores of Hesder yeshivot, of very high standards, whose bachurim serve valiantly and proudly in eretz kodsheinu. The learning of those in KBY, Shaalvim, Otniel, etc. is just as precious to HKBH as those who learn in the Mir, etc.”
Again you spout your hatred against Charedim. Noone said Mizrachi/MO actual learning is less valuable then Charedim learning. But they don’t learn full time -like a lot of Charedim do. Some go to the army, some go to college, some go to work -there a very few that spend their lifetime in Kollel. The Charedim also have those that do other things, but it’s not just a few that stay in Kollel long term.
You cannot build a society of moochers and expect it to work. Plus, neither the Lakewood Mashgiach, nor yourself, have the right or ability to determine what is a legitimate theological premise and what isn’t.
The roshei yeshiva of YU, just like HaRav Aharon Lichtenstein, shlita, endorse fully service of all bnei torah in Tzahal. See Sotah 44b.
In addition, Hazal and the Rambam mandate one to work for a living. The torah is not a means for self-glorification and that is what ends up happening, sadly.
rebdoniel, if Chazal say something, it is true and this is what we go by — eventhough you might be ignorant of it. Chazal do tell us that limud HaTorah is a tremendous zechus that has the power to protect. You do not know what you are talking about.
Plus, we don’t pasken like that Rambaml. Look in the commentaries on S.A., Hilchos Talmud Torah.
My charedi son got his draft notice three times. The first two he ignored and the third one he went to. He davened the entire night before at the Kotel not to be drafted. When he walked in they asked him to talk about what he does every day and he told them that he goes to mikve, davens, and learns all day. They gave him an exemption on the spot. I think that if they see an erlich ben Torah, they do not want him in the army simply because it will undermine their control-and all armies function on controlling their soldiers. I do not feel that a person should be forced into the army. Ideally they should make the army voluntary and eliminate conscription-there are still plenty of people who want to be part of the IDF. Hopefully that will be the end result of all of this political stuff.
What about all the double-shirkers who are registered with yeshivot and kollelim but spend their time wandering the streets and hanging around the coffee machine?
“You cannot build a society of moochers and expect it to work. Plus, neither the Lakewood Mashgiach, nor yourself, have the right or ability to determine what is a legitimate theological premise and what isn’t.”
*This* is what it really is all about, isn’t it. Not the quinoa and not the corn derivatives. Otherwise you would enjoy not only quinoa and corn, but all kitniyot (aren’t you sefardi? so you are permitted to eat kitniyot, right?) and let everyone else follow their own Rabbi. But the very existance of observant Jews upsets you, and you start with quinoa – and aim at unlearned people, those more likely to be on the internet – and then it turns out chometz gamur is no problem. You don’t even say so in an open manner like the Reforms do, but claiming this is the “halacha”. That’s why some people want all of our children to go in the people’s army, despite the army brass having clearly stated they don’t need or want more people, much less people who request special accommodation.
Avi K you don’t think those people would become jobniks in the IDF at the taxpayer’s expense, at a much higher stipend and even the coffee machine, where they would station all day long, would be paid by the state; would that be better? Why so? And why it’s so difficult to get rid of conscription and move to a volunteer army as all other modern countries, and then no yeshiva or kollel would have to worry about those people being drafted if they are not registered?
RD:
“It was the hand of G-d operating through the valiant soldiers of the IDF that ensured our victories. Not the studies of those who choose consciously not to be a part of modern Israel.”
Quick point: Hashem runs the world. Wars are not actually won by military might; wars are won by Hashem’s will alone. Ayleh bi’rechev vi’ayleh ba’soosim, va’anachnu bi’shaim Hashem Elokainu nazkir. As such, while Hashem may have indeed operated through the IDF, that does not by any stretch of the imagination mean that the IDF was the actual cause of the victory.
“We are not prophets. How we can claim that the studies of a specific parochial group have a theurgic effect?”
True, we are not prophets. But the greatest of all prophets has informed us that when we do Hashem’s will, things will go well for us in this world. We say it twice a day. And Chazal have informed us that the learning of Torah is particularly important in this regard.
“Plus, those who make this claim ignore the fact that there are scores of Hesder yeshivot”
Nobody is ignoring the hesder yeshivos; if they want to learn some time and serve some time, they have every right. However, you cannot drag somebody who wishes to learn all day out of the Bais Medrash.
” Plus, neither the Lakewood Mashgiach, nor yourself, have the right or ability to determine what is a legitimate theological premise and what isn’t.”
Perhaps not; but the Torah and, al pi daas Chazal, does. And this is clearly over that line.
“The roshei yeshiva of YU, just like HaRav Aharon Lichtenstein, shlita, endorse fully service of all bnei torah in Tzahal. See Sotah 44b.”
And R’ Shteinman, R’ Chaim Kanievesky, R’ Ovadya Yoesef, and R’ Shmuel Aurebach, to name just a few, strongly disagree.
“In addition, Hazal and the Rambam mandate one to work for a living. The torah is not a means for self-glorification and that is what ends up happening, sadly.”
As mdd pointed out, we do not hold like that Rambam li’halacha. If we did, it would be assur for any Rov, Rebbi or Rosh Yeshiva to receive a salary.
Avi K:
They should definitely be doing something useful with their lives. The question is only if going to the army will put them in situation that is harmful to their spiritual well-being.
To state the obvious elaborately
or
life as a chareidi/ yeshiva-kollel.
Who are the shirkers ?
Plus, those who make this claim ignore the fact that there are scores of Hesder yeshivot, of very high standards, whose bachurim serve valiantly and proudly in eretz kodsheinu. The learning of those in KBY, Shaalvim, Otniel, etc. is just as precious to HKBH as those who learn in the Mir, etc.”
(plausibly, he would have referred to some chareidim as well)
I am afraid. Obama was re-elected and Hagel is Sec of Defense. There will be nobody stopping Iran from developing its nukes. It is SILLY to think that a tiny country like Israel will be able to do anything about it. It doesn’t even have real bombers such as the B-2 stealth bomber.
Without the protection of Torah, I don’t see how anything good will come from this. Maybe this is the point: all the chareidim should be scared to leave so that they will be safe when the inevitable occurs.
“The roshei yeshiva of YU, just like HaRav Aharon Lichtenstein, shlita, endorse fully service of all bnei torah in Tzahal. See Sotah 44b.”
Most modern Orthodox don’t want to serve in the IDF. They want to make money in America. Why live a life of sacrifice when it is so much easier in America? If they decide to make aliya, it is only after retirement. Many American chareidim want to make aliya right after they get married so that they can learn in Israeli yeshivas. They are prepared to live a life of sacrifice. This aliya will now end.
ari-free -“It is SILLY to think that a tiny country like Israel will be able to do anything about it. It doesn’t even have real bombers such as the B-2 stealth bomber.
Without the protection of Torah, I don’t see how anything good will come from this.”
You’re right. The Tzionim/Zionists, “religious” or not, are playing with fire!
But in their dream world they think adding a few Charedim to the IDF will protect them because “Might is Right”. Or are they doing it because “It’s Not Fair”? Either way removing people from learning Torah is a very dangerous act. I think they better open a Chumash and see what it says regarding “Koach V’otzem Yodi” and why Hashem brings the “Tochecha”.
They say might is right but guess what? Iran is a big country, Israel is a tiny country and will be squished like a little grape. Iran doesn’t even have to send a missile for Israelis to attempt to shoot down. They can just smuggle in a nuke and that will be the end of everything.
These dati leumi are so funny. Their big idea is to just kick out all the arabs or to pay them all off. Everything is just so simple. They hate the arabs/Iranians but trivialize the actual threat.
I have been following this thread for some time. There are some very good points made by several people. On the other hand, some of the views expressed here are somewhat like living in another world! I don’t think some people here actually understand how they are viewed by the vast majority of the population. There are 2 main points I would like to make:
1. Since when did it become acceptable for the majority of the male population not to work? I learn Daf Yomi, and it is pretty obvious that the vast majority of tanaim and amoraim held regular jobs. Rashi was a winemaker. Rambam was a doctor. All of a sudden, work is assur? In fact, so much so that chareidi girls in Israel are persuaded that it is much preferred for them to marry a kollel rather than a working man! Well, if you want to live in poverty, that’s fine, although the Germara teaches that one that does not teach his son a trade teaches him to steal (as he will have no other way of making a living). Instead, what happens today is that the vast majority of Chareidim simply take money from the government. All that does is make charedim look like parasites in the eyes of those that work for a living.
2. Then , to top it off, they absolutely refuse to serve in the army. So, let’s some up. If someone living in America absolutely refused to work in order to live on welfare, and then refused to serve in the army (if there were a draft), and refused to even do community service, what would you think? Welcome to the Obama world. I have to support these people and I resent that able bodied people don’t work. How do you think the Israeli working population views you?
Meanwhile, some people seem to think that since they were not in favor of the country, the govt has no right to make them serve in the army. Are you kidding me? If you lived in Egypt or Italy or Greece or any other country and they drafted you, do you really think you could refuse with the excuse that you are learning full time???? At the very least you would be imprisoned; you might be sentenced to death!
One more point. Some people have made the argument, “well, we don’t really care what the rest of the world thinks”. Let me remind you that in the last century, the Jews in Germany, Austria, Poland etc had the same POV, with disastorous results. The Meam Loez reminds us that the Jews in Mitzrayim had no idea what the Egytians felt about them, with the disastorous result that 4/5 of the population died there.
I’m not suggesting that anyone will die over this, chas v’shalom. However, I do think the chareidi community should do some real soul searching on whether Hashem really desires that living your life by refusing to work or take on communal obligations of the State is correct.
By “work” do you mean doing something during the day that gets you paid. In the United States, or in the Israeli universities, once you receive money in excess of tuition or waived room and board fees, you are considered an employee. In Israel, if such persons are employed by the teachers, they are not considered employed. While in English there is a clear distinction between student and teacher, in traditional Hebrew, a “Ben Yeshiva” could mean either. Bnei Yeshiva who receive enough money to support a family are employed, even if the green eyeshade guys don’t count them. In addition a great many yeshiva “students” have jobs off the books since if they worked on the books, they would be drafted into an army that is incredibly hostile to bnei Torah.
If the government wanted most of the bnei yeshiva to be part of the economy, they could exempt them from the army (perhaps tied to being fathers, a grounds for exemption in many countries with conscription).
Thank you akuperma for proving my point! So, you are advocating that people work “off the books” such that they cheat the government out of taxes?
“If the government wanted most of the bnei yeshiva to be part of the economy, they could exempt them from the army (perhaps tied to being fathers, a grounds for exemption in many countries with conscription). “
Please give me a logical rational argument why a yeshiva student should be exempt from his duty to the state as opposed to anyone else. If everyone did what you suggest, there would be no army and no benefits as there would be no taxes to collect! You have aptly proven the gemara’s point: If you don’t learn a trade, you will eventually come to steal (in this case, from the government itself. The same government that these yeshiva boys seem to have no problem taking money from).
ifti99 -Your two points are totally separate, but you seem to Mish them together.
1. The point about Kollel I somewhat agree with you. This happens here in the US too. All the Frum girls only want Kollel. At one time there was a fight of Shmad/assimilation here amongst the Frumme. So this was the reason of Kollel being pushed. It’s Not Halachicly wrong for anybody to sit in Kollel, but perhaps the tide has changed and the girls shouldn’t demand Kollel, nor the boys anymore.
2. EY has a separate prob and that’s going to the army. This is a prob whether the person works or learns. Lots of Gedolim hold that it’s Not okay to go to the IDF if you’re a Frum Yid.
This is the main problem with the draft.
I hope this clears some things up for you.
It doesn’t clear it up because National Service is also being protested by the charedim. Explain that.
Yeshiva IS national service.
(And only a small minority of Israelis learn in yeshiva. Not a majority, as some commented.)
Truthsharer, can you explain why national service is somehow considered a quasi-acceptable replacement for military service? I can; the real point is to get the b’nei Torah out of the beis medrash.
DY, the government is not siting in their little dungeon trying to figure out how to make all charedim not frum. Scare tactics notwithstanding, if you’re in a society, and taking from that society, and where everyone else is giving to help make the society better, then you have to do your part as well. What is so bad with that? And Nationa Service is not a quasi-acceptable replacement, it is an acceptable replacement.
Scare tactics notwithstanding, if you’re in a society, and taking from that society, and where everyone else is giving to help make the society better, then you have to do your part as well. What is so bad with that?
Nothing, and since we all hopefully agree to Chazal”s assessment that limud haTorah is a tremendous benefit to all, and their proclamation that one who says “mai ahani lon rabbanan” (the Torah scholars are of no benefit to us) is an apikorus, we can put to rest the notion that the b’nei yeshivah who are learning are not doing (more than) their share.
And Nationa Service is not a quasi-acceptable replacement, it is an acceptable replacement.
Why is national service an acceptable replacement, when a major part of, if not the whole tayna, is that the chareidim refuse to put their lives at risk?
In the U.S., for example, there is no requirement for national service, and even if a draft became necessary, it would be to populate the military, not to run soup kitchens and sweep hospital floors.
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