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Toi – Sometimes it’s hard to tell the difference between pastiche and serious….
mdd -“The British or the Arabs would have found whom to maintain an army against. Besides, the Arabs would not have sponsored all those Yeshivos the way Israel does.”
I’m not sure who is a worse Antisemite -the English or the Arabs?
Neither should run EY. The English should have given it back to the Turks. There probably wouldn’t have been much Freye living there if they would have. No Freye would want to live in a somewhat religious country that respects religion. The Zionists could have made their country in Uganda. Also, if the Turks would have been running it -there would have been no wars, no terrorist attacks, no causalities and no one to Shmad up all the Oilem, like the Yeminites!
Health, Turkey has a mandatory draft. They also fight the Kurds. Turkey is a member of NATO. The Americans wanted it there as an ally against the USSR. If somebody told them to go jump in the lake with their draft, the response would have been brutal.
Oh! Now Israel, the jewish motherland (fatherland?), the safe haven of persecuted jews, is compared to hostile countries such as Egypt, Turkey, Syria? By a committed zionist, no less?
The open internet is not the proper place to discuss how citizens (not necessarily jewish) adjust to such legislation. Suffice to say it’s done not very differently than Jewish Israeli citizens who do not wish to be doing military service, and who wish to work, rather than being full-time Bnei Torah.
PS In the middle-eastern democracy, non Jews with a similar plan for their life do not have any problem. Strange democracy, are some people more equal?
mdd -“Health, Turkey has a mandatory draft. They also fight the Kurds. Turkey is a member of NATO. The Americans wanted it there as an ally against the USSR. If somebody told them to go jump in the lake with their draft, the response would have been brutal.”
I really don’t think if they were running EY – they would draft a bunch of Jews. They might draft some of the arabs there, but none of the Jews -after all they are Muslem.
Zdad, from the wikipedia article on the assassinated representative of the Agudah, De Haan:
“He endeavoured to get an agreement with Arab nationalist leaders to allow unrestricted Jewish immigration into Palestine in exchange for a Jewish declaration foregoing the Balfour Declaration.”
Health, I do not think that the secular Ataturk’s Turkish Republick would not include the Jews in the general draft.
If you belive in a promise from an arab nationalist, Ill sell you a bridge or give you an indian treaty
I would hardly trust, be it some Arab among the Levantine and Hashemite contacts of De Haan, or be it Ataturk. The problem is that we are now wary of trusting fellow Jews, as well as their promises (eg brainwashing of Tamani, Maghrebi, Mizrachi children, european orphans etc)
mods, what happened to my other comment? It got through the first time, then I edited it to fix a spelling mistake, and it never got re-posted.
zdad:
Believe it or not, Jews and Arabs lived together in relative peace for hundreds and hundreds of years. The many Sefardi communities are living proof of that. The Arabs only started really hating us after 1948 and the founding of the State of Israel.
IN 1840 there was a Blood Libel in Damascas, At least 10 jews were tortured and killed (One converted to Islam after being tortured)
The Jewish Quarter of Cairo was destroyed in 1945
A Pogrom occured in Baghdad in 1941 and 200 Jews were killed
What about R’ Moshe Blau, chairman of Agudah in Palestine, who was mysteriously poisoned in 1946?
What about the Yid who threw himself in front of the British Foreign Secretary’s carriage in Warsaw, begging him to help him get to Palestine, as the Jewish Agency won’t let him in?
What about the fact that the Jewish Agency refused to give visas to frum jews until the British in 1933 forced them to give Agudah a pitiful 6%?
The British lay the groundwork for much of Israel’s justice system, built the Lod (now Ben Gurion) Airport, upgraded the road network, laid the foundation for the Hagana’s tactics (Orde Wingate), and built neighborhoods such as Rechavia…
Yes, I would prefer to go back to a British Mandate
Joe, you could prefer all you want. The next ruler after the State of Israel is going to be Melech HaMoshiah.
mdd, last I checked most civilized countries today have entitlement programs for their unemployed. If I’m not mistaken, Britain’s entitlements are particularly generous.
And what is this Chillul Hashem you keep going on about? How on earth is any of this a Chillul Hashem?
zdad:
You claim that in a 101 year, span 201 Jews were killed and a Jewish neighborhood was destroyed by the Arabs. True. But in the 65 years since the creation of the State of Israel, between 13,171 and 14,657 Jews were killed in the various wars, and just about every Sephardi community throughout the Middle East was expelled, left with nothing besides what they could carry (and then suffered a spiritual holocaust at the hands of the Zionists).
There was violence against the Jews by Muslims before the founding of the Medina, but it cannot be compared to the amount of violence that we have unfortunately seen since then.
Kanoi, are you for real? The unemployment programs are meant for people who are trying to support their families by working but have fallen on hard times — can’t find a job. If a large community of people were to use that program for their benefit, meaning — the husband just stays in learning and they use the benefits to supplement their income, such a practice would for sure create ta’anos from the general population. That would be especially true if the people doing it were Jews and the general population — British bnei Eisav. There for sure would be Chillul HaShem and eivah. Anything unclear?
Joe, you could prefer all you want. The next ruler after the State of Israel is going to be Melech HaMoshiah.
See now, usually you folks try to claim that the medinah is moshiach, or is as good as moshiach. I’m glad you’re conceding this much.
What is your point? I thought this was about the laws of the State of Israel, not about the UK. In the UK there are laws and social benefits and you should not be concerned about citizens and non-citizen residents cashing benefits they are entitled to. As for any antisemitism or other social tensions that may arise, you are in the safe haven aren’t you? Why worry?
If you are arguing that as Esav has no respect for Torah study which they see as a waste of time and some would like to altogether destroy (eg Italy in the past centuries where Talmud was forbidden to print and study) without realizing the blessings it brings upon them as well, and you are telling us this is how the Zionist feel and there’s no difference, I find it interesting to hear it from a committed Zionist, and I find even more interesting that you still consider yourself a committed Zionist.
You still have not elucidated what do you mean with “chillul Hashem”. Receiving benefits one is entitled to is in your opinion a chillul Hashem? Refusing such benefits (like the antizionist do) is in your opinion a chillul Hashem? It sounds like you are under the misplaced belief that R”L studying Torah is the chillul Hashem. You should have a refua shleima.
PBA, chas ve’sholom — never claimed that. I do not ,however, subscribe to the grotesque view that the medinah is some type of a super-evil, worst-ever, but, at the same time, toy monster(that you can just fief on and not treat it with the same seriousness you’d treat the French or Polish governments).
Daniela, I am not moichel on your manipulative abuse. Remember,there is din and Dayan.
As far as the financial issues, would it help for you to just conceive them as liberals?
Liberal ideology is that it is appropriate to use electoral power to take money from people who have it and distribute it to yourself. This is the system used in every modern liberal democracy, and espoused by legendary liberals such as our President.
That is precisely what the chareidim do. They have electoral power, and they use it to force other Israelis to give them money. Money which they think they are morally entitled to by due of learning, which is more than can be said for liberals in other countries.
Now, I am not a liberal, so I don’t approve of such antics, and I equate it with the behavior of liberals in the US and elsewhere which I heartily condemn. But most of their critics in the jewish community are indeed liberals, so their criticism is bewildering.
Charlie’s criticism really stands out in this respect.
Daniela, I am not moichel on your manipulative abuse. Remember,there is din and Dayan.
wow. Are you really so persecuted by Daniela’s writing opinions here?
But the Frum must worry about the impression they make!
But the Frum must worry about the impression they make!
Sure, the impression they make is of a liberal.
Liberals don’t like them, because liberals think poor people are entitled to what the rich folks have, and therefore are entitled to steal it through political force. But think that Torah is not valuable and so chareidim are not entitled to steal it.
But it is still comparable, because conservatives view the stealing liberals the same way that chilonim view chareidim. And the liberals don’t care about how they are viewed–they have the power and they’ll use it. So why do they fault for the chareidim for not caring how they are viewed.
That is precisely what the chareidim do. They have electoral power, and they use it to force other Israelis to give them money. Money which they think they are morally entitled to by due of learning, which is more than can be said for liberals in other countries.
This. Its not about “sharing the burden”, its not about the army, Its not about shmad, and it isn’t about Israeli society. It is about GELT, GELT, GELT!!! Pure and simple.
If the Charaidim would offer to stop taking any money and “opt out” of the state in return for being left alone, the non-Charaidim would take it in a heartbeat.
GAW: Come now, you are being a little overstrident, and your conclusion does not make sense.
If the only concern was money, they would go to the army, and then take over the Israeli economy. They would not sit in yeshiva and be paupers, and have to beg on the streets to marry off their kids.
You sound a bit biased.
If the Charaidim would offer to stop taking any money and “opt out” of the state in return for being left alone, the non-Charaidim would take it in a heartbeat.
1. That is not likely to be true.
2. In that case, chareidim who do have money should not be taxed, so that they can contribute that money to the poor chareidim.
Papa
I was in a cab in Israel talking to the driver, I guess he was Chiloni. Somehow the topic of Netrei Karta came up and I thought he would not like them.
He said he didnt mind the Neterui Karta because they dont take the money, unlike other Charedim.
Granted it was only one Taxi Driver, but I doubt he was a Daas Yachid on this
If the only concern was money, they would go to the army, and then take over the Israeli economy. They would not sit in yeshiva and be paupers, and have to beg on the streets to marry off their kids.
And they wouldn’t be Charaidim (which is practially defined by not working). They want their cake and to eat it as well.
1. That is not likely to be true.
2. In that case, chareidim who do have money should not be taxed, so that they can contribute that money to the poor chareidim.
1: I disagree. Besides, would it hurt to try?
2: Why? Just because I call myself a “Charaidi” I should be absolved from taxes? You will soon see many “Chozrei B’Teshuva” in Tel Aviv and Rannanna, for certain 🙂
Kanoi: Of course more Yidden died in Israel since 1948 than the 100 years before. There were more Yidden in Eretz Yisroel!
What everyone is trying to say is that the myth that Jews and Arabs got along hunky dorey before the evil Zionists came along is just that, a myth. It’s generally perpetuated by sonei Yisroel to “prove” how the Jews are the cause of their own suffering. Needless to say, have you ever noticed how the original neighborhoods of Meah Shearim and Geula look like forts? There’s a reason for that. Arab marauders were fairly common when they were built and nobody had any fantasies about them leaving the Yidden alone.
GAW: I think that would be appropriate. Part of what society does is allocate its resources. If you exclude a part of the community from receiving any govt benefits, it would not be appropriate to still tax them. They should be able to tax themselves and allocate their money.
I think the focus should not be on the number or percentage of victims in the last 60 years versus those before a significant Zionist presence was established, but rather on the next 20-30 years.
GAW If the Medinat Israel can collect taxes and fees from Israeli and very zionist citizens, employers, corporations, and then trasfer them to the Palestinian Authority e.g. as work taxes towards retirement, even in front of huge and again HUGE debt of such PA + its open involvement into and promotion of terrorist activity and anti-israeli activity, I do not see why this should not be possible for Haredim.
GAW: I think that would be appropriate. Part of what society does is allocate its resources. If you exclude a part of the community from receiving any govt benefits, it would not be appropriate to still tax them. They should be able to tax themselves and allocate their money.
Agreed. But by working in Israel, you ARE receiving benefits (such as infrastructure, security, electric, water, etc.). I agree with you that someone who is “independently wealthy” and receiving money from external sources (such as US bonds) who “opts out” should be included. They would they have the right to opt out and not get the various benefits (such as medical, voting rights, social security, etc., as well as water infrastructure).
Once again, the difficult part is deciding who is part of that society, but I believe that can be determined by seeing who benefits from the state.
daniela: Because they gain something they feel worthwhile by paying out to the PA: (some) cooperation from their security forces and favorable world opinion. What do the non-charaidim feel they get from the Charaidim? Until now the answer has been votes in the Kenesset to do whatever they want, as long as the piper is paid. Now that is no longer an incentive to a sufficent number of Israelis.
Palestinian workers come to work in Israel using Israeli buses, pass through Israeli security checks (which are a disproportionate money blackhole, and, if there was hardly any traffic, many of them could be closed, with great savings for taxpayers) which guarantee our security and theirs, use Israeli roads built and maintained by Israeli taxpayers, if they have R”L a work accident or a traffic accident while traveling to work they get Israeli ambulances to carry them for treatment in Israeli first-aid and hospitals and the bill isn’t sent to the PA, they drink from the same faucet everyone else does…. and this is no problem. Why should it be a problem with Haredim?
daniela: See my response above (when the mods approve it).
GAW so you are of the opinion that many or most Zionist Israelis consider Torah study a waste of time, even worthless than the empty and unreliable Arab promises? I did not believe things were *that* bad, but you may be right.
GAW so you are of the opinion that many or most Zionist Israelis consider Torah study a waste of time, even worthless than the empty and unreliable Arab promises? I did not believe things were *that* bad, but you may be right.
Not “Torah study”, but “Full time Torah study by all”. Even the Yesh Atid lady MK Dr. Ruth Calderon has a degree in Talmud and is a Machshiv Torah. Perhaps she should have gotten a Petur for “Torah Study” instead of many Charaidim.
mdd -“Health, I do not think that the secular Ataturk’s Turkish Republick would not include the Jews in the general draft.”
Our little argument can partially be solved if we find out whether they draft the Jews from Istanbul nowadays or not.
If they don’t, then they wouldn’t do it in EY either. And if they do, perhaps they still wouldn’t draft from one of their countries under their control due to conflicts of interest.
She is a Talmudist? Oh I see, actually, compared to that lady, maybe I am a Talmudist too.
mdd:
“Kanoi, are you for real? The unemployment programs are meant for people who are trying to support their families by working but have fallen on hard times”
Not in a socialist country. In a socialist country, entitlements are for everyone besides the rich.
“Daniela, I am not moichel on your manipulative abuse. Remember,there is din and Dayan.”
Wow. You have been sitting here hurling hysterical abuse at anyone and everyone who disagrees with you (and daniela in particular) for the better part of three days, and now that somebody else gave you a little attitude you’re “not moichel” them?! Seriously?
GAW:
“If the Charaidim would offer to stop taking any money and “opt out” of the state in return for being left alone, the non-Charaidim would take it in a heartbeat.”
That’s just not true. Lapid wants to draft everybody, whether they take government money or not. Also, he’s not satisfied with cutting the funds of those who don’t report for the draft; he wants them arrested.
Yserbius123:
“Kanoi: Of course more Yidden died in Israel since 1948 than the 100 years before. There were more Yidden in Eretz Yisroel!”
What about all the Sephardi communities scattered throughout Arab lands; how did they survive before the IDF? True, the Arabs weren’t our best friends, but at least they weren’t committed to our destruction as they are now.
Women shouldn’t even be encouraged to join the army (let alone forcibly drafted) even if they aren’t learning Torah.
“True, the Arabs weren’t our best friends, but at least they weren’t committed to our destruction as they are now. “
It doesn’t seem to me that the Arabs are committed to our destruction. They do a lot of lip service, but the last time a sovereign Arab country attacked Israel was about 20 years ago. That was Saddam scuds, which was from a distance. They caused lots of damage, but there was no outright attack with any troops, planes, or tanks. Before that it was in the Yom Kippur war. There have been skirmishes since then, but very little in the way of attempts of destruction.
You think some women have brains? Thank you so very much, I would never have known otherwise. Does that hold also for those of us who dare contradict you?
Bump. Take 2 on my post (first one was blocked):
“Women shouldn’t even be encouraged to join the army (let alone forcibly drafted) even if they aren’t learning Torah. “
I was just trying to make a point.
“That’s just not true. Lapid wants to draft everybody, whether they take government money or not. Also, he’s not satisfied with cutting the funds of those who don’t report for the draft; he wants them arrested.”
One of us is not telling the truth. What would it hurt for the Charaidim to offer it as a compromise?
“She is a Talmudist? “
Yes.
MDG:
Even today, Hamas and Hezbollah are actively seeking Israel’s destruction.
What about all the Mizrahim and Sephardim who suffered under the Arabs and Ottomans for years? The reason why so many of us supported R’ Kahane, hy”D, zt”l, was because we know what it was like living under Arab tyranny and barbarism.
If someone suffers or if someone does not suffer, it is not according to our decisions, much less according to the arabs decision. For unfathomable reasons suffering exists, even though we also have a few very understandable reasons that are enumerated and we should try to improve. It is written on Rosh Hashana and sealed on Yom Kippur. What we can decide is whether our suffering will come at the hands of the antisemites or if R”L it will come to happen at the hands of (misguided, sick, evil) fellow Jews. We can also decide if we should be pushed to do aveirot by a fellow Jew and push them to do aveirot, or if we should run away from such situations. I try my hardest to help if I can and if I can’t help I am at least careful not to damage, and I try my hardest not to put stumbling blocks. In the Medinat this is not always easy to achieve.
Mr. Doniel -“What about all the Mizrahim and Sephardim who suffered under the Arabs and Ottomans for years? The reason why so many of us supported R’ Kahane, hy”D, zt”l, was because we know what it was like living under Arab tyranny and barbarism.”
The Muslims were no better or worse than any other Goyim throughout the generations. Ever hear of the crusades? But since the Zionists came into being the hatred towards Jews has more than doubled. Besides all the wars and causalties that they have caused.
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