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Charliehall. I agree — it is overboard. But it is very Chareidi here — they do not know how to spell “yashrus”.
Btw, just for the PBA, a different country would not take “no” for an answer if they were drafting people. I am referring to the hypothetical Arab or British rulers.
Charlie: The question comes down to; would we be better off overall if there was never a medinah. If they answer in the affirmative, then they can hardly be considered to owe a moral duty to it.
And if they are trying to shmad us, which is very likely the case, then we’d obviously be better off under the arabs.
PBA, forget about the moral duty. Do you think the British, American, Swiss or Russian Jews would openly defy the draft in their respective countries like that? Israel is not different.
And, yes, I agree that under the given circumstances al pi Halocha they have a ptur of osek ba’Torah. They, however, would not be able to learn without the Medinah’s money.
Do you think the British, American, Swiss or Russian Jews would openly defy the draft in their respective countries like that?
You mean exactly like we did for hundreds of years in Europe when we thought it would shmad us? Yeah, we’d do that.
Also, I don’t forget about the moral duty, since that is precisely what the conversation is about.
PBA, I am sorry – you do not know history. In the really olden days they would not draft the despised Jews. Later, when they started, they would not take “no” for an answer. In times of war, they would execute draftdodgers. Chazon Ish made a neder to write a sefer as he was trying to escape from the Russian soldiers combimg Minsk(Russia) for draftees. If the Jews in Russia would try to openly defy the draft they would get firing squads and pogroms in response.
Learn some history and common sense instead of the Chareidi distorted fantasies.
PBA, do you really think it is a real shas ha’shmad which requires yehareg ve’lo’yaavor? Are you for real?
First, chill out.
Second, they certainly did try to evade the draft in Europe, and chazon ish that you cite is an example.
Third, I didn’t say it was a yehareig v’al yaavor. Neither was it in Russia, as evidence that the steipler didn’t allow himself to be killed to avoid the army.
mdd, in the past i.e. since Napoleon made it popular to have draftees instead of professional soldiers and throughout WW1 and beyond, Jews defied those laws, and the penalty was immediate death.
My point,PBA, was that they did not and would not dare do it in the same fashion that the Israeli Chareidim do it. To understand that is the first step for you and the like-minded fellows on the way to a reasonable and resposible position on the issue.
Oh, I thought you’d apologize for your previous attack.
My point,PBA, was that they did not and would not dare do it in the same fashion that the Israeli Chareidim do it.
Of course they would. If the jews in Russia had enough electoral power to stop themselves from being drafted, you better believe they would have used it.
What nonsense.
Daniela, did the Jews openly come out and tell the government and the general populace to go jump in the lake and then just went to be executed? Joe, stop with your distorted fantasies!
Right,PBA, they would go to the Congress and say:” Let the Goyim serve, we do not want to…”. Right,PBA?
PBA, you have to view the whole situation — how it looks, not only the Chareidi negiyos.
Get a grip. Of course they would have done that in Russia, if they had the political power to do so. You’re being disingenuous if you think they wouldn’t have done so.
Distorted fantasies? Joe?
The Jews did not have any political power, so, obviously, bribed, arranged false paperwork, moved to other countries.
The near totality of countries allow conscience objection. I can think of Korea as an exception, and of course, Israel. There may be more, but among modern western countries, conscience objection is not questioned.
PBA, you get a grip. You think anybody in their right mind would go to the Congress and say:” We,a minority such and such, just do not want to serve, you, the majority, go to the Army…”. Forget about the Chillul HaShem, forget about starting up with the Goyim…
If you really think that, I have nothing to tell you anymore. Have a good live.
All sort of religious minorities routinely did and do, among the last people to get in trouble for that in a Western country let me mention Mohammed Ali, that was a LONG time ago. J witnesses – you can ask them something useful, next time they show up with their propaganda material – say that even countries that formally have a strict draft e.g. in Africa, and even under difficult circumstances (wars), usually attempt to intimidate people, but then quietly dismiss. People don’t like to have unmotivated people in their armies, such ideas have the potential to spread. Their only concern is to keep it hush, lest too many people avoid military service, hence the problems e.g. in South Korea where recently some objectors have been jailed (j witnesses object to civil service as well).
May I mention that also in Israel, religious minorities routinely are exempted and no one bats an eyelash? Hmmmmm.
Joe or really Daniella? Yes,distorted fantasies. Conscientous objectors is a very strictly defined category. It is people who religiously believe that any war under any circumstanses is totally prohibited. The US did not poter people who objected to the Vietnam war from the military duty as conscientous objectors. The Israeli Chareidim’s ta’anah is that it is bittul Torah to go the Army (they said those who do not learn should go) while the only reason they can learn is because the frei pay part of their bills.
Daniela, by hook or by crook the Chareidim should be potur. Right? Who cares about the Chillul HaShem?
None in this family is called Joe and I am not sure what or who you are talking about. The US exempted people from the Vietnam war for much, much less than being a pacifist or holding religious beliefs of any sort: for example one could be exempted for college, for work permits abroad e.g. in Canada (or one could do that in reverse, move to Canada AWOL and get a regular work permit, these people had no problem when later returning to USA), for being married with children. You don’t have a problem with, say, the Israeli taxpayer supporting xian clergy and even paying their huge overdue water bills, no problem with the Baha’i and their closed garden in Haifa, neither serve in the military, but the loathed charedim are dishonest parasites? To tell you the truth, I think the Israeli charedim are naive. They should leave the country, preferably renouncing citizenship, then all the problems of the Medinat will be removed. Or maybe not, but you will have to seek for new excuses.
Melamed LeHoil paskens that draft-dodging constitutes hillul hashem (OC 42-43).
Rav Hirsch (Horeb, section 609), and the Dor Revii, in Tel Talpiot #104 also look favorably on Jewish service in the army.
Placing Torah and Mitsvos ahead of army service is a tremendous Kiddush ha-Shem. THe world will see our faith in Ha-Shem, his Torah, and insistence of following his orders.
This would be true even if the Israeli army was glatt kosher (in fact, except for segregated units, it is very hostile to anyone following traditional halacha interpretations), and even if the zionist cause wasn’t clearly hypocritical (if they claim based on the claims in Taanach, how do they justify rejecting the Torah imposed as part of the deal giving Jews Eretz Yisrael – if they reject Torah, then where do they get any basis to go to war in order to drive the Arabs out of Eretz Yisrael).
We joined the army of Ha-SHem at Sinai (as volunteers, not conscripts). We have our commanding officer. We have our orders. And if Netanyahu, Lapid and Bennett think they can compromise our mission, they will be mistaken. Olam HaZeh is a war of attirition, and we’ve outlasted the Roman, and the Greeks, and the Crusaders, and the Nazis – and we’ll outlast Likud and Yesh Atid.
Chillul Hashem in the eyes of whom? I am becoming really curious. Are the goyim supposed to hate Jews who do not serve in the military? Such hatred does not seem to be arousen in regard to other minorities who refuse military service and that are viewed with sympathy. I don’t recall protests about Baha’i for example, not by israeli nonjews and not by zionists. And are we talking about Israel, or other countries? In most other countries there is not even the shadow of a problem, as military draft does not exist and/or conscience objection is an option.
‘ a different country would not take “no” for an answer if they were drafting people.’
I’m old enough to remember the Vietnam war era in the US. The US government just threw the draft dodgers in jail or forced them into exile. That is what most countries do — except, as pointed out, when they just shoot the draft dodgers.
And being a member of a clergy doesn’t automatically get you out of serving in an army. Italy drafted a young priest into its army during WW1 whose name was then Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli. He is now better known as Pope John XXIII.
“we’d obviously be better off under the arabs.”
I want anyone who thinks that to let me know what they are smoking. It must be really good stuff!
“we’d obviously be better off under the arabs.”
I want anyone who thinks that to let me know what they are smoking. It must be really good stuff!
Come now Charlie. The CharlieHall I know doesn’t quote half a line and then criticize it.
I said, “And if they are trying to shmad us, which is very likely the case, then we’d obviously be better off under the arabs.” That is, that clause is dependent on the premise that they are trying to shmad us.
I’m happy to hear your disagreement on that, but I’d like to be sure we are disagreeing on the same thing.
But it is very Chareidi here — they do not know how to spell “yashrus”.
You really need to apologize for that comment.
Joe or Daniela, I do have a problem with those things, but what shaychos to the topic at hand. As far as the etzem money go, paying(Rachmona li’tzlan) for those “projects” costs nowhere close to sponsoring the Chareidim.
The Israeli Army also has pturim or leniences for married people, new olim, etc. I was not talking about that. Do not twist and try to wiggle out! Just coming to a US conscription site and saying that you do not hold of the Vietnam war would not help in you in 1969. So stop whining about the conscientous objectors.
Moving out of the Medinah and doing what? Coming to the US and demanding from the US kollel forever, no working etc.?
charliehal -“The vitriol directed towards Medinat Yisrael here is as bad as what I read from the Arab and Iranian rashaim. How about some Hakarat Hatov for the generous subsidies for yeshivot and for the IDF’s protection from the rashaim?”
The vitriol directed towards Charedim learning Torah here is as bad as what I read from the Arab and Iranian rashaim towards Jews. How about some Hakarat Hatov for all those doing Limud Torah that provides protection from the rashaim?!?
Where did you learn that xian clergy in Europe did not receive automatical exemption from combat? Roncalli was both a military priest and some sort of medic, because he wanted extra money to send to his very poor family. The job of military priest was effortless and well-paid and clergy fought for it (once positions were filled, the rest was dismissed). Garibaldi famously made by mistake a Jew from Naples into a military priest, you did not hear that one?
Daas Yochid, hi there! I did not mean that all Israeli Chareidim and their sympathizers are like that, just as not every Pole is an anti-Semite!
mdd, what makes you so angry? We are not Israeli citizens and we do not want to be. You want so badly to draft charedim, go ahead, I believe the country will collapse, but, whatever suits you. As for how to do if we should be drafted, and the USA does not draft since 1972 (the last ones were not sent to combat and not even overseas), we are not asking you for advice.
I think Israel should explore the loyalty oath.
Those that don’t pledge loyalty to the medina and to Tzahal and go live in places they’d find more heimishe, like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Park Heights Avenue, Route 59, etc.
Joe or Daniela, when there were 400 quiet bnei Torah in Israel nobody made a tumult about them.
mdd, you said “Charliehall. I agree — it is overboard. But it is very Chareidi here — they do not know how to spell “yashrus””
and so, youre being motzei shem ra on an entire tzibbur. thats pretty bad. also, im pretty sure even a 5 year od could spell it. so its also dumb. dumb and bad, like the rest of you chilonim.
Toi – Why assume mdd is chiloni? That’s dumb. Dumb and bad.
ROFL! No one made a tumult about Bnei Torah when there were few of those and when they were barely visible! May I point out to the attention of mdd, Bobby Fischer, and whoever else feels like you, we can have ghettoes among the antisemites; if *that* is the purpose of the Medinat, then the Medinat is unnecessary.
rebdoniel, I agree with you. If the country, despite being welcoming of all sort of lifestyles, can’t accept haredim, then things have to change. Someone is a committed Zionist? they should sign allegiance and have citizenship and serve in the military and in the wars declared by the Knesset and the government those citizens will choose. Everyone else – those who are children or grandchildren of citizens – those who by chance were born in Israel – those who emigrated decades ago – enough demanding from those people and creating trouble if they come to Israel for their relatives’ wedding, enough using these names for padding the statistics of the Medinat, which, despite the dubious “converts” and other “lost tribes”, is not necessarily a country with the same demographic majority as it was in the 60s, and of course, enough with demanding money from abroad, enough with pushing upon us Israeli suboptimal financial investments, enough with requesting we buy “Made in Israel” second-choice goods at outrageous prices, and enough with sending us all sort of drug-users and wierdos and dishonest people who show up, flash their passport and demand, let us at least check if they are jewish or are only registered by the State of Israel as such. As for the Israeli Jews who are uninterested in an allegiance oath, be them Bnei Torah or workers or professionals or anything else, I agree, they should all leave, along with their blessings, and bring their blessings elsewhere. Problem solved. Only one little question, may I wonder what will be done with the other non-zionist citizens of the Medinat? deport them after revoking their citizenship? There are huge lots more than 400 non-zionist Arabs and among them, many are much less silent and quiet than Bnei Torah. Will you guys make a tumult about that?
In the 1800’s there was a mandatory draft of jews in Russia. Jews were drafted for 25 years, the jews who were taken were called cantonists.
Instead of direct draft by the government, the tsarist government made the local jewsish leader pick who went.
The Rich jews usually bribed their way out of letting their sons go and the Rabbis usually used their connections to get their sons out of the draft.
So the usual people taken were the poor unconnected especially the orphans who had no-one to vouch for them
I think Israel should explore the loyalty oath.
Those that don’t pledge loyalty to the medina and to Tzahal and go live in places they’d find more heimishe, like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Park Heights Avenue, Route 59, etc.
Oh, they’ll do that. Just it won’t be for another 20-30 years, and it will be to pledge loyalty to Hashem and the Torah. And those who don’t…
mdd:
You are insisting on looking at one small piece of a much bigger picture. True, if Israel was still under British control the Chareidim would not have a legitimate claim to be exempt from the draft. But there wouldn’t be a draft to be exempt from, because there wouldn’t be any Hamas to fight. Therefore, it would have been better for the Chareidim if the State of Israel never come into existence, as they desired at the time. So you can hardly say we owe the state a tremendous moral debt of gratitude.
Oh, and screaming hysterical insults at the entire Chareidi population doesn’t make you or your position seem any more intelligent.
RD:
Meah Shearim was around before the Medina came into existence. If somebody should leave, it should be the Medina. The Zionists do not (or at least, should not) have an exclusive claim to the land.
Joe(Daniella), stop with you Naturei Karta nonsense and indeed leave and stop making Chillul Hashem with your behavior, with your twisted arguments. The problem is that when it comes to money the non-NK Chareidim come and start saying that they are entitled to them as they are good Israeli citizens. When it comes to the draft, they start yelling “evil Zionists”. You’d claim that Paris is the capital of Japan if that what it takes to “prove” that the Chareidim are right.So how’s the weather in Teheran?
In fact, I am not arguing with your anymore just as is the case with PBA, Toi and some others. Enough of the “Brazil is in Antarctica” type of arguments!
The Kanoi, that’s ridiculous. The British or the Arabs would have found whom to maintain an army against. Besides, the Arabs would not have sponsored all those Yeshivos the way Israel does. You can’t take and demand money from the Medinah, but when it comes to the citizens’ duties start yelling “evil Medinah”. Plus, I am not even talking about the moral duty. I am talking about not making Chillul HaShem!
Btw, Egypt, Syria and Turkey all draft people. The UK had done till 1960.
mdd: Looks like you don’t want to talk to anyone who wants to talk to you.
You can try talking to chilonim, but they think you are a backwards medieval bigot for being religious.
If the british was still in control of Palestine, there wouldnt be a lot of jews there. The White Paper severly limited jewish immigration to Palestine, and even those limited immigration numbers were not reached
I went to a shooting range yesterday to practice. I shot a Sterling submachine gun, an AK47, a Glock 9mm, and some modernistic (modernishe) Berretta rifle. I’d say I shot pretty well for a beginner.
I have to practice for when they draft the chareidim. And all can decide for themselves why I’ll need practice then.
I did a google search. The modernishe one was a CX4 Storm. It was a beauty. I’d like that one. Costs about a thousand buck.
Zahavsdad: The British were anxious to leave in 1948. Remember the Empire went out of business in 1947, so it wasn’t important to control Suez anymore. The alternative to Israeli independence was an American trusteeship (all mandates were being converted into trusteeships). The Americans were quite interested in encouraging Jewish immigration to Palestine, since frankly, a great many Americans (including if not especially the upper class secular Jews who dominated the American Jewish community 70 years ago) didn’t want them coming to America. Most zionists were socialists, and the last thing they wanted was to have capitalist America taking over. Whereas in 1922 (when De Haan was shot) the Hareidim were talking about an Islamic state with a Jewish autonomous community, in 1948 they were talking about an American takeover (meaning the American armed forces would be in charge). Based on what has happened to other American trust territories, it means that Palestine today would probably have a legal status similar to Puerto Rico.
way to kill my joke.
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