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Assuming the Israeli government forges ahead in attempting to draft Jews from Yeshiva into their Army, how will the Yeshiva world and the Gedolei Yisroel react in resisting it? Will the Gedolim come out in the streets with the Klal in mass protests, disrupting the State, like Rav Yosef Shalom Eliashev ZT”L, Rav Chaim Kanievsky SHLIT”A and other Gedolei Rabbonim did when the Israelis arrested and jailed the heroic Beis Yaakov fathers in Emannuel two years ago, when the oilem under the guidence of the Gedolim refused and resisted the Israeli Supreme Court’s orders to integrate the Beis Yaakov with the non-frum. We won that war when the government caved, and the integrity of the Beis Yaakov remained as the Gedolim insisted, with us keeping our religious standards in our schools and determining our own entrance eligibility.
Will the Israeli government have to build new prisons to jail tens of thousands of Frum Yidden resisting the draft in order to learn Torah? Will all this lead to civil war?
Integrate Bais Yaakov with the non-Frum?
What are you talking about?
Also, if you don’t want Charedim to be drafted into the army, that is fine. They can do national service instead. You certainly can’t have anything against people helping out hospitals?
If you dont like the rules of a certain country, You are always free to leave.
I will refuse to be part of the army (I am a girl).
“Will the Gedolim come out in the streets with the Klal in mass protests, disrupting the State…”
No one ever disrupted the state. No clue what your talking about.
“integrate the Beis Yaakov with the non-frum”
No such thing ever happened. I suggest you start reading all the news article about that. A simple YWN search came up with this link: http://theyeshivaworld.com/news_cat.php?cat=37
if you want to know what will happen if there is a mandatory draft (which will never happen), there will be war on the streets. yes folks. WAR. But not in Charedi areas. The scum of Tel Aviv will go crazy.
Se it’s the people like zahavasdad who refuse to admit that most chilonim avoid military service. So when the cops start pulling the drek out of the clubs in tel Aviv and Eilat, and force them to the IDF, there will be WAR.
If you dont like the rules of a certain country, You are always free to leave.
We should leave? Maybe you shouldn’t come and impose your tzionishe nonsense on our land. Eretz Yisroel belongs to all of us, and if you demand control of it, you should run it in a manner that is acceptable to everyone.
Especially where that everyone happens to be the people who live according to the Torah.
Eretz Yisroel belongs to all of us
Exactly and when you live with everybody you have to accept the laws of the land, whatever they are. If you dont like the laws you can either have them changed , live somewhere else or try to live with those laws.
I suspect they will try to live within those laws and make a deal. There are plenty of things they could do that would be acceptable, How about running the Kosher Kitchen and feeding the troops
zahavasdad – thanks for telling reb chaim kanievsky, rav shteinman, chacham ovadia yosef, and every other gadol to leave israel.
It is very simple. The medine has lost its will to fight Arabs, because deep down it knows the Arabs are right and the tzioini experiment, which is failing, is a colonial imposition of a foreign culture in E”Y. Therefore, it fights those Jews who are not accepting of its foreign culture.
It will be business as usual, muddle-through and malaise, until the next elections – and then more of the same until the world does the will of Hashem and removes the tzioini aberration from EY (as it already is doing with boycotts, sanctions and divestment). When the tzioini experiment comes to its end, countries will be issuing refugee visas to “Israelis.”
And we, bnei Torah outside EY, will be the ones stuck with the burden of helping these refugees, just as many of the dregs of EY already show up on shul doorsteps throughout the world with sob stories (that are more often than not scam stories).
I do not think the IDF will ever draft the Sheinkin Street lefties. Most are druggies who can’t pass a physical or psychometric exam, and they truly earn their ” profil 21″ psycho exemptions or “profil 24” unsuitable ratings. Then they go abroad, and throw themselves on the mercy of Chabad Houses throughout the world. (I am no longer officially Chabad for many reasons, and this is one of them – I feel helping these shticklach erev rav is misplaced chessed as they just take, take, take. You don’t want to hear my stories of how the dati leumi travelers behave either, believe me.)
“How about running the Kosher Kitchen and feeding the troops”
How about all the tens of thousands of chiloni draft-dodgers who do nothing all day on the streets of Tel Aviv work the kitchens?
How come I don’t hear you screaming about them?
Yeshiva students are learning. What are the Chilonim doing when they draft-dodge (en-masse)?
Nothing, besides drugs, clubbing, and partying.
E”Y does not belong to “all of us.” It has vomited out people who don’t treat it with kedusha in the past, and it is doing the same right now.
Just look in your local (NYC, LA etc) pizza-falafel joint. A Golani veteran is probably tossing your dough.
Some yeshiva students, and especially koilel yingerleit, are already doing volunteer work. I saw some so-called “loafers” transporting a patient for Rav Firer on a flight that left at a time long before most Yidden daven Shacharis. That is quite typical, and it is also known that only charedim donate blood “stam” (with no reward and not for family members) in Y-m and even in TA, where men from the largely Gerrer community donate so often that the nurses assume every donor with a beard holds by the Gur strictures regarding tznius.
The lefties just start street protests because the medina won’t pay for their fifteen years of graffiti courses and reward them with luxury apartments for doing squat all day. What’s more, the few who do “volunteer” do so with organizations that promote Arab terror.
The medine is suicidal. It has to be. It is a loaf of bread on a Seder table, or a chozzer on the mizbeach.
Eretz Yisroel belongs to all of us
Exactly and when you live with everybody you have to accept the laws of the land, whatever they are. If you dont like the laws you can either have them changed , live somewhere else or try to live with those laws.
What lunacy is this?
You don’t have a right to come to my land, and impose anti-torah laws on me! And then have the gall to tell ME to leave?
The laws of Eretz Yisroel are the Torah. If you don’t like that, you should leave. Or you can just wait for the Torah’s prophecy to come true, that the land will vomit you.
I’m amazed at how you think. Amazed.
ZAKA is certainly a starting point for a compromise
Helping in Hospitals with wounded soldiers is another possiblity
there are plenty of places to compromise,
There is no compromise with the Torah Hakedosha.
TheBearIsBack
Where do you daven if not at Chabad where you are currently living?
They don’t want compromise. These parties would CEASE TO EXIST and their DEMAGOGUE leaders would be getting bituach leumi the moment charedim perform some sort of service.
They need the charedi bogeyman to get ahead. They can’t fight Arabs, so they fight Jews. They know they have no real claim to the land, so they fight those who do.
However, “danta es dinam, ravta es rivam…and you know the rest” will apply here just as it applied in the days of the misyovnim who created the situation that finished with the ness of Chanukah.
Where I daven and my hashkafah are not connected – I am not against Chabad, just no longer formally a part of the present organization that calls itself Chabad. If anything, I’m more in line with classic, authentic Chabad than today’s Chabad, Inc. is.
One day I will open a Creedmoorer shtibl somewhere or another :).
There is no compromise with the Torah Hakedosha.
What Averiah is it to visit a wounded solider in the Hospital. last I checked Bikor Cholim was a Mitzvah
I sense an aversion among some posters to use the name “Israel.” What is so bad about using the word “Israel?” The only ones who use the term “Zionist Entity” are those who wish to push all the Jews out to sea. Let’s not imitate their rhetoric. Call Israel by its proper name.
What Averiah is it to visit a wounded solider in the Hospital. last I checked Bikor Cholim was a Mitzvah
That’s a strawman and you know it. Nobody wants thousands of people visiting wounded soldiers–least of all the wounded soldiers.
But if you must, the chareidim would love to send lev l’achim to visit and be mekarev all the wounded soldiers.
And zaka doesn’t need or want another 10,000 people.
It becomes an aveirah when it is done for no reason at all, and you end up with a quota of patients you must visit in order to return to learning. It becomes a real aveirah when those patients don’t want to see you (it happened to me the last time I did organized bikur choilim because of a mistake on the Shabbos list the organizers gave us – that’s human error, but this would force patients to accept visitors.)
The most likely course of action is that those who object to serving will not be imprisoned, but will be treated like anyone else (e.g. Palestinian citizens of Israel) who doesn’t serve in the army, and that any government support for yeshivos will be tied to military service. If the army also decides to accomodate hareidim in the military (at the very least in special units that are conducted according to halacha), the crisis will pass.
There are many in the zionist movement who believe that they can use conscription to break the hareidi community, and that after three years in a Mitsvah-free atmosphere the conscripts will come back as good secular (or at least “dati”) zionists, but that’s unlikely. Such policies would encourage widespread resistance and probably undermine the state (undermine as in forcing many hareidim to adopt an Eidas hareidus/Satmar/Neturei Karta position, and support a one-state solution based on Palestinian control and Jewish autonomy).. The zionists are sane enough to not push that hard.
Off topic – your famous! http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/akuperma-1
But if you must, the chareidim would love to send lev l’achim to visit and be mekarev all the wounded soldiers.
Chabad does things Like sending and delivering Latkes to soliders in dangerous areas. Even Chilonim remember things like that and appreciate it.
There are plenty of things that are Mitzvot that could be done and are not Bittul Torah if they are done and the soldiers (and Maybe the general populance) would appreciate them.
If you want to Makarov people, the first step is getting them to know and like you.
I have a friend who was in the US Army and was not religous at the time
He was in Southern France and the local Chabad Rabbi went on the base and asked the Officer if there were any jews on the base.
My Friend figured it was a great way to get better food than the army and went for Shabbos at the Chabad Rabbi. That small step made him more appreciate of the religous and became frum himself and married a frum woman and they have all their kids in Yeshiva
And this is why the army does NOT want charedim around. In particular, some of my Chabad friends who went through the draft process with the intention of serving whatever time they needed to serve ended up with the “profil 24” designation – not fit to serve, no reason given. Some of these guys could deck two pieces of NYC street scum with one hand.
They’re not fit because they will attract frei soldiers to Yiddishkeit.
D,
Are eou in any way aware of what goes on in Isreali hospitals?
The Chareidim are already doing Bikur Colim and plenty of it, and yes the Chareidim already have Zaka and Hatzola and many more Volunteer organazations.
When Meir Dagan needed surgery he turned to a Chareidi Medical Refferal.
So if all the Chilonim wanted was the Chareidim to take part in caring for the sick and helping people there would be no fights ’cause it’s already done and done well.
But the truth is that’s not what they want.
They want to control the Chareidi youth they want to be the ones deciding Halacha for them and teaching them priorities,.
And that is something the Chareidim will never except.
There leaders are not our leaders.
There values are not our values.
Their goals are not our goals.
Their priorities are not our priorities.
When Meir Dagan needed surgery he turned to a Chareidi Medical Refferal.
As did the late and very unlamented left-wing Y-m city councilor Ornan Yekutieli OLB”M. R’ Menachem Porush A”H, with whom he fought incessantly, was instrumental in getting him a kidney transplant.
So much negativity here, where’s our emunah? There’s no “zionist entity” out to get us, it’s all Hashem.
As for the draft, for now keep davening, keep studying Torah, keep making tshuvah, keep being positive.
While my own personal belief is that defending the borders of Eretz Yisrael fulfills the mitzvah of pikuach nefesh as ruled by the Lubavitcher Rebbe based on the Shulchan Aruch, I agree that Torah study does this also.
That said, there’s an opportunity to make a kiddush Hashem through performing practical mitzvot in hospitals and other organizations, as others have detailed above.
For now, I see no reason to believe hareidim will be drafted. Not just because Hashem is in control and not just because they’ve tried before many times and failed. There’s really no reason politically either. Bibi has been in contact with Deri three times and is meeting with Yishai today. He hasn’t made any contact with Bennett nor is he expected to and he is confident a compromise can be made that is satisfactory to Gedolei Yisrael.
Trust in Hashem! He won’t abandon his precious Yidden who have nothing in this World but Torah.
why wasnt this called ‘jews resisiting the jewish draft’…shailas chacham teshuva.
defending the borders of Eretz Yisrael fulfills the mitzvah of pikuach nefesh as ruled by the Lubavitcher Rebbe based on the Shulchan Aruch
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The Lubavitcher Rebbe ZYA made it very clear that those studying Torah were NOT to serve in the military under any condition.
Sadly, close to 90 percent of Jews resist the Jewish draft and do not serve as soldiers in Hashem’s army.
This includes the bulk of soldiers in the tzioinish army. The tzioinish army does not hesitate to use force to deal with those who put Hashem’s law above its laws of kefira, while it risks the lives of innocent Jews to avoid inflicting more damage than its master, the US (and world opinion), will tolerate, on dangerous terrorists and those who harbor them. I am not convinced that this terrorism would ever had occurred if that ideology did not take hold and try to create a secular state in holy land, and I am not convinced that the Balfour Declaration ever meant for Jews to have more than autonomy under non-Jewish rule. (After all, can I buy slum land, build a yeshiva and community, and then declare my block independent of the US? I’d end up in Oytisville if I did it for tax purposes, or in Pilgrim State if I really convinced myself that I was building a haven for Jews on land that I liberated!)
I will not serve in that army or live under the jurisdiction of the illegitimate government and corrupt ideology that has created a need for that army. I do not even feel any great need to visit the mekoimos hakedoishim that it has defiled by its very presence, because my interactions with the state and the sad people that it has spawned left me homesick and disappointed each time I visited in the past. The state and the ideology it represents are an expression of how far Jews fall when they abandon Torah.
The apocalyptic remarks above are a true eye-opener. Who knew that North Korea has such a large Jewish community and that the only way to criticize anything there is to refer to the local regime as “Israel”?
Incorrect info – sorry – Rabbis Uri Lupoliansky, Chaim Miller and Mordechai Maklev, who then were the main frum representatives on the Y-m city council, assisted the unlamented leftist Yekutieli OLBM through a frum healthcare referral tzedoko, and the organ in question was a heart.
Yekutieli OLBM was born with a defective heart, in every sense of the word. He died in the US, outside of the city and country that he desecrated, at an age that suggests koreis.
I do not live in, and presently cannot enter, North Korea. Later in the civil year, I will be able to obtain a passport that will allow me to enter. If I decide to visit, which I am told is not worth my while, I am sure I will be treated with respect (and curiosity, which is fine with me).
I also expect nothing but spitballs and catcalls if I do visit EY again and need to pass through Sheinkin. Ditto for what I expect if I ever shop in Malha mall or quietly walk along King George or Ben Yehuda again.
BearBack, didn’t you mean to write “Noirth Koirea” and its capital, Pyeeng Yung? Just askin’.
2) America and no other country will grant tens of thousands of residency visas to Israeli citizens.
The PA would. It would be an amazing PR coup for them. “We allow Jews to return, Israel has to allow Palestinians to return”.
The most likely course of action is that those who object to serving will not be imprisoned, but will be treated like anyone else (e.g. Palestinian citizens of Israel) who doesn’t serve in the army, and that any government support for yeshivos will be tied to military service. If the army also decides to accomodate hareidim in the military (at the very least in special units that are conducted according to halacha), the crisis will pass.
I agree. I also believe that Yesh Atid (or Ein Atid, as Bear puts it) would agree as well. The main issue is the welfare, not the army (which, as many have pointed out, they don’t really want to include Charaidim). Perhaps the compromise will include “community service hours” (not Sherut, but something that can be under the auspices of a Charaidi Rov) for a year or two, which will then allow the Charaidim to legally work without having to join the army.
PBA, for crying out loud! IF YOU DO NOT HOLD OF THE MEDINAH, DO NOT INSIST ON STAYING IN LEARNING ON THE MEDINA’S GELD! HOW DO YOU SPELL YASHRUS,btw? Or it is not a Yeshivishe word?
Our land? Have you gone mad? Did I miss the memo telling us Moshiach came? How can anyone besides Joseph talk like that? If the arabs were in control, or the British, or anyone else, you would be subject to their rule. Face it, the irrelegious are the sovereignty and their rule is no different from your perspective than any other ruler.
If you think you can convert them en masse then you may have something, but this is not age of empires.
HOW DO YOU SPELL YASHRUS,btw?
YAS..R…MONEY.
Correct? 🙂
The (incorrect, as per Rav Miller) answer is that Limud HaTorah overrides many other Halachic considerations.
If you think you can convert them en masse then you may have something, but this is not age of empires.
HOYOHOYO?
Confucious -“Will the Israeli government have to build new prisons to jail tens of thousands of Frum Yidden resisting the draft in order to learn Torah? Will all this lead to civil war?”
It won’t get this far. They will just expand the volunteer Frum army units. Israel politics and reality are two separate entities. Even though all the Zionists who post here are thrilled that the Charedim will lose money and be forced into the army -it’s just their delusions.
I could be wrong though -even stable guys like Bibi can become suicidal. If they go through with a forced draft on all Charedim -there will be mass unrest. This mass unrest will paralyze Israel and after that the arabs will join in and bye-bye State.
I won’t shed any tears, but what will all the “Frum” zionists do on Yom Haatzmous (Day of bones)? I guess we won’t have the zionists posting here how they said Hallel in the morning.
Our land? Have you gone mad? Did I miss the memo telling us Moshiach came? How can anyone besides Joseph talk like that? If the arabs were in control, or the British, or anyone else, you would be subject to their rule. Face it, the irrelegious are the sovereignty and their rule is no different from your perspective than any other ruler.
Agreed 100%.
But, the same way if the British or Arabs were in control, there might be no moral duty to join the army, the same can be true.
Now, I happen to think that even under the current regime, there is some moral duty to contribute, but I think it is tempered by the other sides willingness to cooperate with us. So that, if the other side is trying to destroy religion, then we have no duty to play into their hands. And, that is how I understand the case to be.
mdd: Cool your heels, I don’t think they should take the money either.
Rabbi Yoel Schwartz was among those who founded the Nahal Hareidi (Netzach Yehuda) battalion, which opened the IDF to hareidi-religious soldiers by providing an environment suited to their religious lifestyle.
Now Rabbi Schwartz has issued a warning to the IDF: if army leaders do not keep their promises to hareidi soldiers, it will be impossible to enlist hareidi Jews.
[promised]
Hareidi communities live with separation of the genders, particularly among young single men and women. One thing hareidi rabbis have insisted on regarding hareidi units in the IDF is that the units remain for men only, and that the men be allowed to perform their duties without close interaction with female soldiers.
Religious Zionist soldiers and their rabbis complain about the same problem, exacerbated in recent years when separate units for Hesder religious Zionist soldiers were all
The religious-Zionist Hesder soldiers have also faced more conflict over their religious principles in recent years, due to the abolishing of most separate units for ‘Hesderniks’, as they are called, and feminist groups’ insistence on allowing girls to serve in any capacity – even out in the field where conditions make separation difficult
Pinhas, Yavneel Posted
In the early years of even Nahal Haredi, it was a unit mixed with non-religious soldiers and religious. Thats how it started. And the women came to the base to visit their bfs. I have friends, who served then, who used to be religious, at least they were before they went to the early Nahal Haredi. Lets be honest about religious soldiers, national religious soldiers with their grilfriends.
I have heard similar stories of people bringing their girlfriends, ipods with movies, etc. into nachal “chareidi” units. Can’t say I blame the Chareidim for not wanting to be a part of that.
The vitriol directed towards Medinat Yisrael here is as bad as what I read from the Arab and Iranian rashaim. How about some Hakarat Hatov for the generous subsidies for yeshivot and for the IDF’s protection from the rashaim?
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