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sushi: the blind boys of alabama, canton jones, mary mary and others will disagree with your assessment of r&b while reliant k, pocket change and others will disagree with your assessment of punk.
as for the crossover between cantorial and opera, a good study on the subject was elucidated in the June 2000 edition of the Voice Foundation Journal, “Comparing historical and contemporary opera singers with historical and contemporary Jewish cantors.”
it is amusing that the only people i ever heard claim that there is a “jewishness” to music styles or genres were people with very narrow and limited exposure to music. i find the claim absurd, immature and nonsensical.
for music lovers, it is disheartening that there exists such a strong repression of this particular art in the frum velt.
there is no disagreeing, however, that a song that exhibits prust and disgusting themes should be avoided by a yirei shomayim.
finally, it should be noted that i have found that the only jewish musician to have attempted to blend various styles into a new genre of jewish music was carlebach but his musical influences are recognizable anyway and those who perform in the carlebach genre today draw heavily from alternative rock.
The reason why very few people will never be convinced in the topic of non Jew music is that people are too emotionally invested in the music they enjoy. No amount of rational thinking can convince a person differently than they already feel or force a person to be objective.
Jewish is a birth status. It is not a description of a correct standard of behavior. There are plenty of irreligious ‘Jews’ with no concept of torah, who unfortunately promote immorality in this country. Therefore whoever said there is no such thing as Jewish music is correct, unless you want to say the cultural Jewish tunes like the old European ‘klesmer’ type of sound. However, this does not mean that there is no correct type of music for a Yarei Shamayim. It is for this reason that music is so relative to a person’s madreiga, and the madreiga they wish to be on. The music of a frum Yarei shamayim (Torah music – whatever you want to call it) is only music that uplifts and brings a person closer to Hashem. Period. It is this way with everything in life. Nothing deserves the brand of frum or torah status if it is not aimed to inspire. The majority of the so called mainstream “Jewish” music does not do that in fact it does basically the opposite – the composers try to capture the wild culture of the goyim, stick in a few Hebrew words and hide beneith the cover of ‘Jewish music.” There is a tremendous ta’ava for this – no question, just like other aspects of a secular society are appealing. There is a lot of neutral secular music out there like classical or some may argue disney or whatever, but the bottom line is, the second you start picking and choosing, chances are you will end up listening to wild, destructive songs as well. However, I truly believe parents need to teach that children that just because a frum Jew is singing it, it does not mean that it is good for your neshama. It is truly one of the challenges of this generation.
The way I understand what Jewish music is, it is “clean music.” Now if a person could find this “clean music” even if it was written by non-jewish artists that would fine besides for one problem. It is inevitable that one will start to listen to not so clean music and on. That is why people would tell you not too even start listening to non-jewish music. By making a rule that one should only listen to jewish Music would just be protecting ones self from all the shmutz that is popular.
I have heard from multiple sources that in the late 20th century the music on the radio was “clean” and one was allowed to listen. (other then kol isha obviously for a man) But now in days it is totally and completely Asur.(other then classical etc.)
In my opinion a person is able to listen to any music he wants if and only if the msuic follows under these 3 criteria.
1) If the music is considered “clean” according to normal people.
2)If the music you listen won’t lead you (in any way)to inappropriate content.
3) The music is not Kol Isha (for a man)
I doubt Disney would lead to heavy metal
besalel: I didn’t mean the original R&B rhythm and blues I was referring to the more contemporary usage meaning R&B Hip hop fusion.
Punk rock is by definition Loud and aggressive which is probably why there is such a strong skinhead culture around it.
I’m sure if you looked hard enough you could probably find a Gangsta rapper with a positive and moral message but that doesn’t invalidate my point. Nuff said!
Musicaldignity: but different people have different styles of music that bring them spiritually higher and some others can be spiritually lifted through more than one style. While it could be that for you the fast simple riffs and non stop drums of punk makes you feel one way for another person it could provide her soul with a burst of positive energy and spiritual happiness. For one person Bach is associated with the dentists chair and for another it takes him closer to hashem.
Your claim that we are invested into a particular type of music and this blinds our ability to see clearly is both irrational and condescending. It is also not true. I am not arguing for any particular style of music. I find beauty is all styles and genres. And every song that in your head you’ve categorized as Jewish started out in its base as a non Jewish tune which in your words were slapped with Jewish words.
Don’t make me laugh!
I’m just guilty of it myself but I ain’t gonna fool myself.
I am talking about that audio junk they play in kosher supermarkets in frum neighborhoods.
As opposed to the junk they play in the non jewish supermarkets.
Just because a non jew made a song doesnt mean it’s good. Which makes me wanna ask:
Just because millions of people like a song doesn’t mean it’s good. Right?
Then how do you define good? Most people like things they believe are good.
How much of todays “music” is actually the sound of a musical instrument and how much is just artificial noise that either simulates or distorts the sounds produced by instruments?
“I am talking about that audio junk they play in kosher supermarkets in frum neighborhoods.”
Ear plugs are a great investment.
One of the reasons listed in the gemorrah for achur (R Meirs rebbe) going off the derech is that he was always singing goyish music.
Al pi mussar
I would say any goyish lyrics no matter how “clean” is probably not clean. If the song has to do with any goyish topic, and you sing it over and over, it gets in your head.
Anything in your head affects how you think and respond.
Our religion is all about degrees of sensitivity.
Let me ask you this
If you have ever tried to stop listening to goyish music (and television) did you find it difficult?
Did you maybe stop for a while and then relapse?
I struggled with these things in my early years and only recently have I seemingly mastered the ability to be indifferent to these 2 things.
Why was it difficult to stop? why the relapse?
I would venture that bad habits are always difficult to stop because there is a yetzer hara, and this should prove that it’s not good for you.
I can also tell you that whenever I relapsed, there was a yereda in my davening and desire and ability to learn. when I would stop, it would take , on average 3 months , to get back to where I was before the relapse.
Before I started learning (I didnt enjoy it), a rebbe of mine once said to me “How do you know if you don’t like it? you never really tried it?”
So I decided to try and for 2 months I pushed myself to be the masmid I didnt have any desire to be.
After two months, I understood why people enjoy learning.
I’ve, gone up and down many times since then, but Ive seen many times how a push of a couple of months brings a new perspective and sensitivity.
So why not try an experiment? Try 2 months without goyish music? and at the same time, push a little more in learning. Then start listening to the music again and see how it makes you feel and what it does to your learning.
Hatzlocho
Why was it difficult to stop? why the relapse?
I would venture that bad habits are always difficult to stop because there is a yetzer hara, and this should prove that it’s not good for you.
Or because it’s a habit. If i try to stop picking my nose (in public, of course) and have a hard time, is it because of the yetzer hara?
I can also tell you that whenever I relapsed, there was a yereda in my davening and desire and ability to learn. when I would stop, it would take , on average 3 months , to get back to where I was before the relapse.
Understandable. However, there’s also the possibility you felt negatively about yourself, low self confidence etc.
Then how do you define good?
If 3/4 of the world like wine A and 1/4 think it’s garbage, but that 1/4 are connoisseurs, would you say wine A is good? Maybe you like it but is it good?
Just remember the first Song the couples march down after a chuppah is The Final Countdown by Europe
The Song Hashem Melech, Hashem Yim loch Lolam Voed is Vivir Mi Vida by Mark Anthony
The Song Asher Borach Sasoon V’Simcha is Down under by Men At Work
So you are very likely already listening to “Goyish Music”
What makes the “connoisseurs” right? Yes, I would say that wine is good.
Mentsch: I already pointed out that you are probably incorrect in your citation of Acher.
And I think you need to understand confirmation bias. If you define listening as a relapse, then of course it hurts your Yiddishkeit. But if you don’t view it as bad for Yiddishkeit in and of itself, it probably won’t.
Sam2:
That story is false. R’ Ovadiah knew what she looked like and still listened. He obviously considered it Muttar anyway.
To reiterate Avi K’s question:
How do you know that, and it contradicts his psak in Yabia Omer 1:6(13)?
Sam2:
That story is false. R’ Ovadiah knew what she looked like and still listened. He obviously considered it Muttar anyway.
To reiterate Avi K’s question:
How do you know that, and it contradicts his psak in Yabia Omer 1:6(13)?
Because he was there when it didn’t happen.
😉
Zhavasdad:The song hashem melech, the original is actually c’est la vie by Cheb Kahled (not that it really makes a difference)
I was actually quite Shocked the first time I heard it a wedding especially by the way the crowd was dancing to it.
Yidden by MBD is a cover of Dschinghis Khan by Dschinghis Khan a German band. I would argue the tune is quite appropriate for a song celebrating a mass murderer like Genghis Khan, not so much for MBD’s more inspiring lyrics.
See Yabiya Omer 9 108:43.
Also, when you see OC 1:6, it’s entirely possible that R’ Ovadia did not hold that recorded Kol Isha (so long as there are no Hirhurim) is Assur outside of Devarim Shebikdushah.
I have heard from Talmidim of R’ Ovadiah (who I will keep nameless, because as far as I know they have never stated these things publicly) that of course R’ Ovadia knew what she looked like–her picture was on every street corner in Egypt when he lived there.
If its difficult to stop listening then its probably assur. Why is there so much talking in shul but in a church its quiet? Many people say different reasons such as its only once a week etc. I believe its quiet in a church b/c theres no yetzer hora in a church. In shul thats where the yetzer hara is. Sorry for digressing. There are poskim who hold that it is assur to listen to a jewish song that is sung by a jewish singer if he sings in front of mixed crowds! Look in Igros Moshe he deals with this topic. L’mashal Reb Shlomo Carlebach ZY”A. He was so holy, the deepest of the deep, yet there are those who held you cant listen to him. The real underlying issue is that music has a very big ???. And can be dangerous. Reb Aaron Kotler Zatzal ever warned Reb shloima about this.
I have been to weddings of close family members of some major Roshei Yeshivas. When some of the songs that I mentioned before came on from the band, not only did the Roshei Yeshivas not protest, they danced to the music of the songs that were mentioned before.
Either they did not know they came from Non jewish music (Which I doubt because many people know the sources of these songs and someone must have told them at some point) or they hold its Halachically OK
As a general rule, trends among Jewish music seem to follow between three years and a decade behind contemporary non-Jewish music. A key example is Lipa, who has literally hours ago bought out a song that pretty shamelessly follows on from the EDM music that, over the past four or five years, has been incredibly popular in the non-Jewish world. And going back quite a few years to his album Keneina Hora, he in particular has closely followed contemporary chart music in style and inspiration, in many cases to the note. And with this latest track I think he’s crossed over an even lengthier red line.
Brisker Rov: Without digressing further (because I really don’t think we should get into this), those who hold he’s Assur to listen to hold that way because they think he wasn’t so holy or the deepest of the deep.
Zahavasdad and others have pointed out that many popular Jewish songs are derivatives or direct copies of non-Jewish songs. But this issue is not simply a question of whether a particular song has been copied. Technically, there is nothing wrong with a tune solely because a non-Jew composed it; I would not be the first to point out classical music as a key example. The issue has far more shades of grey.
Firstly, an issue that bothers me, and many don’t realise, is the practice by many singers of composing/stealing/deriving a pop tune, that is to say, in a particular style, and simply shoehorning in whichever possuk they want. This is not necessarily a problem, simply often not appropriate. Yesh Tikva does not fall foul of this, as the words are composed too.
Also, many tunes are rip-offs of very unsavoury tunes, and do not make the transition well. Styles should stay fundamentally ‘Jewish’, and not stray into club tunes, as Lipa just did with his EDM club beat.
And finally, generally trying to mimic the latest styles is at best unbecoming.
Sam2- Very interesting. Lichora according to what Rav Ovadiah tz”l says there, he would be mater kol isha on a video.
only things that go against our religious beliefs were not allowed to listen to other than that were allowed to according to my rabbi.
Too sad R”L that today’s Jewish singers with their crazy rocket music are exact copies of pure goyish music songs with just changing the words.
Too sad that you think that all goyish music is crazy rocket music and that original Jewish music isn’t. I’ve heard plenty of parodies that were not crazy or rocket or music.
jews should not listen to not jewish music and jewish music should not be taken from not jewish singers.
Why?
because its not good for our neshamos.
Why?
Read the sefer about all the different kinds of music and what the effects of each kind are to you and your neshama. Then you will see how it effects you and your way of life and Yiddish Keit
So you’re telling me I should believe something because it was written?
you must be correct what you said. don’t believe the torah either it was written by Moshe when Hashem gave it to him. but don’t believe it cause he was a human being
I don’t understand you.
not jewish music is not for us jews thats why its called NOT jewish music.
Not Jewish apples and oranges are not for Jews thats why it’s called NOT Jewish apples and oranges.
not funny. all apples and oranges are kosher.
Not meant to be funny. And not all apples and oranges are kosher.
the common ones are. which ones are you talking about?
MashiachAgent- 100% agreed.
Shmittah ones?
EY A/O.
how did this thread go from not jewish music to shmitah?
Because you don’t have an explanation of why non-Jewish music is bad for Jews.
Who cares? That’s the point of these threads… there are multiple discussions going on at once.
This is disconcerting…
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