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I do believe YOF should come out with a formal statement. Although flight attendants may have overreacted, there is no excuse for Jewish children not obeying when being told numerous times and then again by the pilot himself.
If they apologize doesn’t that say that they don’t believe their staff who deny the kids did anything wrong (or very little, nothing even close to warranting the response of being kicked off a flight)and that they also would be accusing innocent kids of wrongdoing? All for what? It wont change a thing about how the anti-semites already look at us trust me they will find a way to see the apology in a negative light. Why risk insulting and alienating your teachers and students who at the end of the day are your #1 priority? Its not a simple thing.
YITZCHOK2: To be brutally honest with you, as a Monsey resident, I know that many are in two minds about the whole school board thing. There isn’t one clear-cut situation, and there’s definitely SOMETHING rotten in the county of Rockland. What it is, we really don’t know yet. When they do this audit thing hopefully they’ll figure out what’s going on.
To differentiate:
1) Lakewood. Are they directly injuring anybody? No. So far as I’m aware, they were awarded the money completely legally. If they committed fraud to obtain it, then it would be dishonest to keep it.
2) School boards. I know nothing about the Lakewood school board, and I stand by what I said above about the Monsey one. Dishonesty in any form, I don’t care how much it benefits yeshivos, is immoral and against the Torah.
3) Chassidim in Monroe. See Lakewood- if they meet the federal requirements and it’s entirely legal, then what can I say?
Remember- this is as far as apology goes- as far as chillul Hashem is concerned, the above may well be an issue. But you specifically mentioned apology here.
Here’s the bottom line: I CANNOT FORCE ANYONE TO APOLOGIZE. I can be a responsible, caring human being and apologize if someone is harmed either directly or indirectly through me (or even not at all through me- see the shiva example). I can wish that YOF had apologized. BUT I CAN’T FORCE THEM TO. Nor can I ask any newspaper that maligns a Jew or anyone else falsely to apologize.
I hope I am the LAST person you will see who will diss a Jewish person because he or she attends a co-ed high school. While I don’t attend one, and neither do most of my friends, I have close relatives who are teachers in several prominent schools and only hear wonderful things about them. I am not jumping into the fray solely in order to go against the school- I was merely taking a part in the debate already on. If the school had been Bais Yaakov of Boro Park or Satmar I would have the EXACT same opinion.
I am a kid and I can tell you that I don’t like being punished for something I do any more than your kids do- there is, however, a difference between apologizing and admitting guilt. I just recently had a situation where, as I illustrated earlier, someone bumped into me, causing me to bump into someone else and have her drop her looseleaf. I believe I said something along the lines of “I’m so sorry- I was pushed from behind and lost my balance. Do you need my help cleaning up?” Apology and disclaimer at the same time- they have NOTHING to do with each other.
Writersoul: If Lakewood is taking the money when they are not entitled to it then they are injuring all the taxpayers in New Jersey. Indeed this is the complaint in the secular press ( and the Jewish media that despises people who learn Torah)
You can’t pick and choose you need to be consistent. You want YOF to apologize even if they aren’t wrong yet Lakewood does not have to?
I am certain that if this was not a coed Yeshivah we would not dare believe one side of the story without hearing the other. If this story happened with a mainstream yeshivah and it hit YWN before it hit CNN every “ASKAN” in Flatbush with the agudah, shomrim, cojo etc would have been at the airport demanding an apology. We would have mobilized every chesed organization to give them food for there 12 hours journey through Milwaukee yet we hear they are “Modern” so we did nothing. Did we even pick up the phone and call the frum people we know in Milwaukee to check them out. No they are modern and if a few kids misbehaved we could care less about them. Let’s be honest the only time we ever reach out to the ” modern” side is when we need there money. In my shul we wouldn’t let a person the amud without a hat( I would assume in yours as well) but by the siyum hashas we let the sponsor say the Kadddish without one because he was a sponsor. You mentioned earlier about chesbonos from hashem I dare say that i doubt he is happy with our response.
over 100 students and chaperons, were taking a trip to Atlanta, and were kicked off the plane because they werent listening. they were using there phones….I think it was stupid to kick all of them off. I think they should’ve kicked off the children who werent listening.
moishyk: I was told by someone who heard from someone else that the airline seated the kids in different sections of the plane and they literally threw off kids who had no clue what was going on as they were away from the disturbance.( everyone agrees there was some sort of disturbance although the disturbance doesn’t seem much different than the person who sat next to me last time I flew and was told 4 times to shut the phone).That might explain why some kids might of used hyperbole when they called it anti Semitism( although the more I read the comments on cnn the more I realize that anti semtisim still exists) They should have asked one chaperon to get off with the kids who did something wrong and the rest are on there way.
Had they done this my feeling is the kids kicked off would have apologized and then the airline could have determined if they let these kids on another flight or not. It is obvious the airline realized that what the crew did by punishing all was unfair( and maybe illegal) and that’s why they quickly let every kid on the next flight and from what I would assume let every kid return home together on the same flight. ( and gave each kid 2 vouchers )
YITZCHOK2: There seems to be a lot you’re certain of that most people don’t seem to be in the least. If you’re so sure that other people are against YOF because they’re co-ed, maybe that says something about you, because I don’t think that that’s a natural mindset to have.
I was operating under the assumption (being dan lekaf zechus) that the whole Lakewood thing was legal. If it isn’t then I can’t defend it.
I repeat- if Lakewood is receiving the money legally, then to whom must they apologize? The taxpayers? It is the government that decides where money goes- let them apologize.
In this case, though, the kids directly negatively impacted specific people (the other passengers, the flight attendants, etc). It is menschlichkeit to apologize for the frustration.
As to why the askanim didn’t mobilize everyone to help them- hey, maybe you’re right. I’m choosing to be dan them lekaf zechus and assume that by the time they heard about the story, the kids were well on their way- of course, also, they may not have wanted help for all I know. I really haven’t got any idea, and it’s a moot point, because they managed. It’s all your mindset- if you want to be so judgmental, feel free, but you’re not benefitting anyone.
I assure you, like I said, if anyone from any of the “frummest of the frum” were to do the same thing as these kids did, I would have exactly the same reaction- unlike you, I can’t answer for anybody else.
Bottom line: you make way too many assumptions (and, being a girl, I have no idea if you can daven at the amud without a hat- though I assume that if a person doesn’t own one they’d either lend him one or just forget about it- I have a very nice shul that cares more about internal veahavta lareiacha kamocha more than it cares about external clothing).
writersoul:IT DOESN’T MATTER WHAT YOU DO- IT’S REALLY WHAT PEOPLE THINK YOU DO.
This is the original quote from your comment when you demanded that YOF apologize.
You now write if it Lakewood is receiving money legally they do not need to apologize. Despite the fact that other people think it’s wrong for Lakewood you giving a free pass.
No assumptions just facts:
The executive director of YOF issues a statement that says the kids were right. Two chaperons are quoted as saying the airline overreacted.
You disregard them and says it’s really what people think that matters.
Once a week there is another call to investigate the matter in Lakewood but you assume it’s legal despite what people think.
No assumptions but obviously there are biases.
You told us how you were brought so ill tell you how I was brought up and how I try to bring my kids up:
Lakewood Is the preeminent yeshivah in Klall Yisroel and unless someone is chas vshalom pulling the wool over the Rosh yeshivas I don’t question what they do and we Do not apologize because people don’t like what they do.
As far as YOF goes I doubt any of my kids will go there but I know they are a fine torah institution teaching Torah to my fellow Jews. They produce kids who go on to be fine torah jews who contribute so much to the Jewish people.( Including producing one of today’s leading Rosh Yeshivahs)
So there you have no assumptions just the facts – think before you disparage 109 fellow Jews!
Most YOF kids come from marginally observant, SY-type homes where mom and their sisters dress like sharmuta, they play hockey on Shabbos, and where they don’t wear kippot outside of school or shul.
I am not particularly upset by this, since I know that these kids are from the lowest common denominator of the community.
rebdoniel: You must have many serious issues to knock the entire Syrian community in one stroke. You are not proudly modern orthodox you are proudly a sonei yisroel.
YITZCHOK2: We’re talking about two different issues here. Before, I was under the impression that you were talking about apologies and NOT about chillul Hashem- in fact, in my very first response to you I noted that what I wrote applied only in the case of what seemed to me to be a necessary scenario for apology, and that even if everything is 100% aboveboard, it may be chillul Hashem.
I agree with you- the Lakewood incident was quite probably a chillul Hashem, which was NOT the subject of my posts in between my first response to you and this. That was on the subject of when do you need to apologize. This was, assuming it was legal, entirely a decision on the part of the government- it’s not even as though BMG did anything on its own to harm others. (I may also be utterly ignorant of yeshiva politics, but whatever.)
These kids- ANY KIDS- should apologize personally to the people they inconvenienced. (Just saying- I happen to be their age. If I were one of them and it had been my classmates acting up, even if it’s absolutely the most negligible behavior, I would be disgusted.) BMG, on the other hand, has nobody to apologize to- to the best of my knowledge, they didn’t do anything but get lucky. (See above for my assessment of my knowledge of yeshiva politics.)
The chillul Hashem aspect is completely separate. IM(NS)HO, ANYTHING that besmirches Hashem’s name and the reputation of the Jewish people is a chillul Hashem. Who is right and who is wrong is, as I said many times, immaterial. In that case, I stand by what you quoted me as saying. In the case of apology, not necessarily.
I don’t honestly know enough about the Lakewood situation to discuss it in this way apart from just guessing.
Just to clarify- my response in general is based on two points: they should apologize for the inconvenience caused to the passengers and this is a chillul Hashem. These are entirely separate, though in this case they mesh very well.
ETA: I just reread your post and something I missed before just struck me. I did not assume that the Lakewood thing was legal. I said that assuming that it is legal, this is my response. If not, then it is unconscionable.
You’re really reading my posts very selectively.
And honestly, people- please tell me it’s only YITZCHOK2 who finds me such a bigot and frummie elitist. I really am not and I have no idea what I’ve said that’s given him such an impression.
nahhhh, you’re good. ^_^
writersoul: Obviously like most people you will not admit that you erred in your initial posts so continuing this conversation is a waste of time. I would assume that tomorrow when you discuss this with your Beis Yaakov teachers they will tell you what kind of tzadeikes you are for knocking 107 modern orthodox people.( I know many of my daughters teachers would say the same.) Based on how you described your Rov I am hopeful that your Rov might not disagree with your thought process but he might say going on line and brushing an entire group of kids where all agree most are innocent is not consistent with Vahavta lereiacha komocho that he tries to teach you. I guess when my son starts shidduchim if they red him a girl from monsey I will ask the shadchan for the girls handle on ywn as I wouldn’t want him to have to apologize the whole date for things he didn’t do wrong. I wish you hatzalcah on all your tests go study!!!
Thanks for the vote of confidence. 🙂
…Hey! Now we’re even!
This thing about Lakewood is being used to obfuscate the issue of perception. Perception is different than culpability or blame.
Writersoul, you write beautifully for your age (for any age) and I admire your willingness to stick with the issue. Please don’t let your studies suffer for this!
Rebdoniel- not cool.
Experience and observation lead one to inductively conclude I am correct. “Ahavas yisroel” does not preclude pointing out the shortcomings, errors, and failures of acheinu bnei yisrael.
RD: What I think is that you’ve had several bad experiences and are therefore quite jaded in regards to several groups of Jews who, for whatever reason, do not treat Geirim the way you feel they need to be treated. I would think of recusing yourself from such conversations in the future as you are obviously a bit Nogeia B’davar.
YITZCHOK2: You’re really being ridiculous here. As wanderingchana pointed out and as I’ve been thinking for quite a while, the Lakewood issue is really irrelevant and just makes it harder for you to really understand why my stance is what it is ON THIS ISSUE. I’m not going to argue with you more either.
Your really rude insinuations about my school, family, and personality are above and beyond anything I’ve seen here. My school is amazing, with all types of girls and wonderful teachers, and that would NEVER happen. (If you’re so self-righteous about putting down Modern Orthodox people, why on earth do you send your daughters to a school with teachers like that?)
But that’s irrelevant.
I hope your son finds his zivug when he’s ready, but I’m pretty confident that it won’t even come close to being me.
Thanks for your good wishes for my tests.
wanderingchana: Thanks for the encouragement and support! I was getting kinda down… I was trying to figure out why I deserved all this. It really means a lot :).
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