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Megalglin zechus al ydei zakai!
Such a chilul Hashem! the whole world is looking at these kids and saying this is what Jewish kids are and this is how they act.It is a Himmel geshrei we live in this community and it doesn’t bother us.
This is a direct result of the school they are in.
Yes BH we had great events in the last year from the kinus to the Siyum Hashas Ahh what a kidush hashem no negative press could be picked up.
Ok…what r u talking about?
jewish source
Just because they look different than you and come from a different background than you makes them bad? Trust me theres a long laundry list of things that bachurim from “top” yeshivos do wrong so will you draw the same conclusion that “This is a direct result of the school they are in?”
Is this antisemitism?
etnazr
I was going to write that but refrained.
This is a massive chillul Hashem and the YOF has some major damage control to do for the sake of all Yidden.
Since perception is reality, it doesn’t matter whose fault it was or if the kids were sitting with their hands folded in their laps or if the fight attendants were out of their gourds.
It went straight to the national media and the comments sections are crawling with Jew-hating comments.
Again, IT DOESN’T MATTER if they were being complete angels.
Apologies from YoF board, hanhala, parents, students, janitors, etc. are in order on the same scale as the national press.
The only reason it would not happend with Chreadi kids is they would unlikely be going on a class trip to Atlanta (Never heard of such a “class trip” before) from jewish kids
(I do see secular kids come from all over the US to NY for class trips)
Typical Joe Trolling. His brain is too warm.
It’s so not antisemitism. It’s a chillel Hashem is what it is.
It was a group of 100 teenagers, among who, a number failed to follow the stewardesses instructions (which happened to be basic airline takeoff procedure).
Though the airline may have overreacted, I would never say they were wrong. I was a teenager not to long ago and have travelled with my classmates in large numbers. We were a little rowdy, though no where near over the top.
I could only imagine 100 teenage friends on such a flight. Not saying they were all wrong, but enough to worry the airline.
Chilul ‘H comes about from Yidden who are supposed to present a higher standard, what difference does it make which “type” of yeshiva?
etnazr
How is this antisemitism? About 100 kids were acting rowdy,and unruly in public on an aircraft were there is strict protocol. Do I think the action taken against this behavior is antisemitism? No! Do I think they need an education? Yes!
I read an article thaf alot of stewardesses on planes think of the jewisb flights as punishment flights (minyan, problems with seats, men and women, seeing a tv (chas vasholom!)….no wonder why they hate it. Anyway they were probobly annoyed to begin with for being on the “punishment” flight, and when more oroblems happened…likd seeing the entire flight was not only jewish, but also teenagers, they prob. Blew up…..
Maybe they just don’t like kids.
From all reports I heard (aside from the “official” one from the airline) the kids weren’t rowdy at all and they were treated quite unfairly. Being treated unfairly isn’t a Chillul Hashem, regardless of what the media does with it.
I agree with Sam. If the media made a story out of nothing, you can’t blame the school.
It does not make a difference if they were right or wrong.If a chilul Hashem happens through you then there is something wrong with you no matter if you did anything wrong it came through you.
Again, IT DOESN’T MATTER if they were being complete angels.
Apologies from YoF board, hanhala, parents, students, janitors, etc. are in order on the same scale as the national press.
These comments make no sense, and are completely wrong.
@Jewish Source: This is a direct result of the school they are in.
This is one of the most ingnorant, non-educated comments I have ever read.
Do you know anything about the Yeshiva of Flatbush High School or its history? Have you ever spoken to its administration or its students-yes, both boys and girls?
I happen to live 2 blocks from the High School and the other morning a group of girls from the school were walking on Avenue J. They conducted themselves like the true Daughters of Israel that they are. It was a real Kiddush HaShem to see them. I said to myself “Mi Kiamacha Yisrael”?
So, before you start talking trash about something you know nothing about, don’t judge as I wonder what is going on your backyard.
Antisemitism. I’m not only referring to the airline personnel and the media. (I think I’m referring to the same thing as etnazr and WIY).
jewish source
Some people think its a chillul Hashem for frum Jews to exist. Some people think its a chillul Hashem for a chassid to wear chassidic garb in public….
If they don’t make any sense, how can you tell whether if they’re wrong?
Like jewish source said, it does not make a difference if they were right or wrong at this point. Perception is reality. YOF needs to issue a statement making it clear they do not condone the behavior as reported, whether they believe it is being reported accurately or not.
wanderingchana
You don’t apologize if you did nothing wrong. Unless of course you are the state of Israel, in which case you must apologize at every opportunity you have for existing and living on your G-d given land and defending yourself against barbaric baby killers.
This is to the starter of this thread and whoever else is being ridiculously ignorant in regard to this situation.
1. You are basing your claims of massive chillul hashem on news reports when you have no idea what happened on the flight.
2.Please do not blame the yeshiva. I myself can tell you that i have been on many flights in my life and bochurim from “top yeshivos” also cause problems on planes by blocking aisles trying to make minyanim, blocking the bathrooms when davening,etc. Even after the pilot came out and tried to make them sit down – they did not listen. That is a true chilul hashem.
Again you have no idea what happened on the plane and you are using it as an excuse to bash the Yeshiva of Flatbush.
If you want i can tell you many more stories of kids from top yeshivas acting very rowdy in very serious holy places.So please take it back and move along.
Wanderingchana, the fact that they’re denying the story is a strong enough statement that they oppose such behavior.
Not surprising that a large group of kids on a trip would act rowdy. For those of you not familiar with the school it is very modern, mostly sfardic and the boys would only be recognizable as being Jewish by their kipahs.
The students probably are not aware that any misbehavior refects badly upon all Yiddin and is a Chillul Hashem.
If they don’t make any sense, how can you tell whether if they’re wrong?
Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding. They are wrong because they make no sense.
That is, the words you are saying are internally consistent, but the theories you are espousing are ridiculous–that is, they make no sense. Therefore they are wrong.
It is like if I tell you that elephants can fly if they first drink beer because the bubbles make them rise. It is internally consistent, but the theory is ridiculous and makes no sense. So I can conclude it is wrong.
Do you agree?
Astrix, please don’t defend them by saying you think others are worse. That’s no defense, and serves no constructive purpose.
I agree with your first point, that we should not believe the story.
i think these “Brooklyn kids” have rarely. if ever, been on a plane. and therefore not aware of the severity of flight attendant imposed rules. I do feel however, if the kids were unruly, that a chaperone from the group or multiple chaperones should have been called to intervene and meditate between the two. I assume chaperones were dispersed throughout the cabin, and unable to get up at this point in the flight. The sad thing is that these kids will just probably think its really cool that they made the news….
popa: Perhaps it may not be their fault, but they should still apologize. It’s just common derech eretz- even if it’s not your fault, you apologize. Reality is 95% other people’s perceptions- we DO need to be careful of what we look like, and even when a Jewish person does NOTHING WRONG, it can be a chillul Hashem if only because that’s what people think it is.
Honestly, they could have been the victims of an anti-Semitic attack or they could have been a bunch of cackling hyenas, but all I know is that I shudder to think of what my grade would be like on a public plane.
(Sorry, love ya guys, but be real here.)
rc – Kids from that school have logged many miles in the air, generally going to warm destinations every year during “Yeshiva week” and many have been to Eretz Yisroel more than once. It’s not the rules they were unaware of, it’s that large groups of kids tend to get rowdy and boiterous.
The biggest chillul hashem here is how some Jews excitedly take this as an opportunity to bash a school or sect they don’t agree with. The amount of ppl consumed by hatred here is sickening.
The national media, anti Semitic comments and Jewish conversations (including this thread) – which one do you think is most significant in hashems eyes? Stop your kvetching and pray for forgiveness.
writersoul +1
writersoul:
I do not understand, or do not agree.
Why would you apologize after being bullied and framed and having done nothing wrong (if that is the case)?
If you are being wrongfully accused, you don’t apologize–you explain. Which is what they did.
It is not a chillul Hashem if people make up stories about us. It is not a chillul Hashem when the arabs falsely accuse us of things; it is not a chillul Hashem when people write protocols of the elders of zion. False accusations are not a chillul Hashem. And certainly do not demand an apology from us!
This notion that somehow we should apologize because people believe false stories about us, is outrageous and astounding to me. But you seem intelligent, perhaps you can explain it to me.
Like i said, it was prob. The stewardesses faults, just making up a big story out of nothing
Why am I being so strong about this point? I will tell you.
One very bad thing which parents and teachers in our world often convey, is that fault does not depend on whether you made a voluntary bad choice. This messaged is conveyed the first time you were punished for running around in shul like a child, and every time thereafter you were punished for doing things that children naturally and normally do.
This idea is very harmful, because we perceive Hashem as being like our parents, and if our parents punished us for things which were normal and we could not control, we imagine that Hashem will do the same. Hence the impossible perfectionism that infects many in our yeshivos, and hence most of the issues that people in our community deal with.
This theory you are espousing is really an outgrowth of that, and it is a harmful and incorrect theory. Hashem asks us to do what we can; he does not punish us for things which are beyond our control.
popa_bar_abba: You are right in the sense that they probably didnt do anything so wrong that warranted such a response by the airlines. You are right that they shouldnt have to apologize for something they probably didnt do. However, the airlines made an issue out of it. They blew it up and made us look really bad. So rather than YOF saying outright that they apologize for misbehaving or roudiness, etc… I do believe that a more general apology along the lines of “We are really sorry that we inconvenienced/disturbed the airline” is in order. Even adding in that what happened was minor and didnt warrant eviction from the craft, could spark more hatred amongst those that hate us. Just to save face for klal yisrael.
this morning I heard a third party, namely another passenger on the plane, say on the news that there were a number of students disobeying repeated requests to be seated & turn off phones.
some may not like it, but it’s the discretion of the airline to decide how to handle such a situation.
when in doubt-BEHAVE LIKE A MENTSH!
Thanks, wanderingchana! 🙂
PBA: I appreciate the compliment :). Anyway, I have a couple of reasons why I, personally, thought about it this way.
1) My mom is a first-generation American, and received a very European upbringing which she’s given my family as well. Part of that is an intense focus on manners- not to the extent of “no elbows on the table,” but definitely including holding the door for someone until someone else takes it (which in this day and age, annoyingly enough, can mean twenty minutes later when everyone’s out), saying please and thank you and excuse me in the appropriate situations (not exactly a no-brainer now either), and, one of the main focuses, apologizing if something that you do annoys somebody. If you bump into someone, you apologize. If someone pushed you into someone else, you apologize, because the point isn’t only “I was wrong”: it’s also “I’m sorry you were injured/embarrassed/inconvenienced.” It really doesn’t matter who did it- it’s about commiserating with the person who is suffering and frustrated. It’s validating the other person’s annoyance. Call it kissing up, I don’t care, but it’s just a nice thing to do. People were delayed in their flight, people had to put up with kids who were probably at least a little bit rowdy (I was on a flight to Israel with a Taglit-Birthright group- wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy)- why not at least acknowledge that you were the vehicle for this (even if it’s not your fault directly) and try to be nice and sympathetic?
Happens to be, in this particular case, so far as I’m concerned, they can apologize nicely like civilized people, acknowledging that they had a hard time and apologizing for its occurrence, and at the same time sue the pants off of Southwest if they decide they have a case. They’re not mutually exclusive.
2) There is, regardless of what we may want to think, a MAJOR chillul Hashem whenever something like this happens. It doesn’t matter whether it was our fault or not- I was just on a different site (non-Jewish) where a bunch of parents were talking about it and were absolutely disgusted that (religious) kids did this and that they “had the nerve” to pull “the Jewish card.” In life, IT DOESN’T MATTER WHAT YOU DO- IT’S REALLY WHAT PEOPLE THINK YOU DO. For instance, if a frum Jew were to commit a white-collar crime and be convicted, the next Jew who is accused of such a thing will be completely blasted- “just like that other Jewish guy.” Doesn’t matter whether he’s guilty or innocent- that’s just the way people think. It creates negative stereotypes, and even if there is absolutely no blame that can be ascribed, there can still be a chillul Hashem.
Notice that I’m not saying that the chillul Hashem is (entirely) on the part of the school- I rather think that the chillul Hashem is perpetrated by the person who created the common stereotype. A chillul Hashem doesn’t just mean that a Jew did something wrong- it means that Judaism and Hashem are perceived negatively, and in this case, regardless of whose fault it may have been, that definitely occurred.
Also, PBA: Happens to be, Hashem does punish people for things they can’t always easily control- that’s (one reason) why we women have to cover up :). But even putting that aside, the idea of apologizing, as I said above, really has nothing to do with the idea that “something happened that I can’t control so it’s still my fault.” It’s just about basic menschlichkeit and caring toward the person whom you harmed, albeit accidentally.
By the way, thanks for bringing this up- up until now, I’d just taken the whole “apologize no matter what” thing for granted- the opportunity to actually THINK about this and figure out WHY was actually really cool and enlightening. I still think I’m right :), but I do see where you’re coming from.
Thank you for your thoughtful response.
I think your point one is basically a question of definition: what does it mean when you apologize. I think I disagree, but it may be cultural. Should Israel have apologized for the flotilla? Assuming Israel was correct.
Perhaps part of this is that you are saying they should apologize for PR reasons, while posters above were suggesting they should because it is appropriate to.
I’m not sure where you are going with point two. If you mean to state that Judaism was cast in a negative light by this story: I agree. But any more than that, such as ascribing fault, is as you say, incorrect.
Also, PBA: Happens to be, Hashem does punish people for things they can’t always easily control- that’s (one reason) why we women have to cover up 🙂
I think the operative word there is “easily”. And in that calculus, don’t you think that He punishes us less when it is harder, and rewards us more?
I’m glad to have helped you crystalize this.
No problem. It’s not like I have any ginormous homework assignments or tests due tomorrow that I didn’t start yet… 🙂
You’re right that apologizing means different things to different people. Imagine, for a minute, you’re paying a shiva call and you say, “I’m so sorry for your loss.” Are you saying that because you killed the niftar? (I sure hope not…) Rather, you’re saying that out of sympathy and compassion for their problem.
As of the last article I read, YOF doesn’t seem to have validated or acknowledged the frustration of the passengers on the flight. You can call that PR- in many cases, good PR is just good sense and menschlichkeit.
When I say chillul Hashem, I mean ENTIRELY that Judaism is, as you say, cast in a negative light. Whose fault it is is immaterial. It may be YOF’s fault, it may be Southwest’s, it may be a combo- it really doesn’t matter, as long as it’s painting us all in a bad light.
One thing we definitely learned from this story and that is that there are unfortunately many Jews who when they see an opportunity to knock another Jew ( or in this case many Jews) they relish the opportunity. It does not matter that they have no idea what really happened, and they have not heard both sides of the story, as long as a Jew can knock another Jew they feel good and holy) ( Maybe they think by pointing out flaws in other Jews they can continue to do all the sins they privately do)
Obviously the anti-semetic remarks on CNN are to be expected but the Jewish community’s hatred to other Jews is embarrassing.
The chillul hashem here is our community’s response. For the sake of the Jewish people I beg theses kids to ignore these hateful comments and if you did nothing wrong do not dare apologize!!!!!!!!
PBA: I have no idea how Hashem cheshbons all of that out, and I won’t know until 120. That could easily be the case- it’s nice to think so. However, that doesn’t dodge the fact that it IS a punishable aveirah, even if, completely theoretically, it may not be punished as harshly.
YITZCHOK2: I hope that nothing I said can be construed as bashing YOF or any other Jews. I agree- making it a sectionalist problem, like “only modern kids would do this, my little yingelach in cheder would NEVER,” is rude and a lack of basic derech eretz.
Writersoul it seems like you are repeating many things you have heard in school and applying them in the wrong cases. The catskill newspapers constantly print articles knocking the actions of frum Jews.- should we not go to the catskills or should we just issue an apology every day?
There yeshivah of Lakewood just got a 10 million dollars grant from the government and the press ripped the yeshivah that they received it unfairly. . should the rosh yeshivahs apologize? should they give it back? should they just chas vesholom close the yeshivah so no one says bad?
Every week there is another article blasting the frum people on the school boards in Monsey and Lakewood- should they apologize for sticking up for the frum yeshivahs?
How about the chasidim in Monroe who the secular press knocks that they gain unfair advantages in programs?
Remember you premise is even if we are right we need to apologize! come to think of it the Lakewood story was in many media outlets how come you didn’t demand an apology? How come only YOF? Could it be that they are an easy target for you cause they are a coed high school?
One last question as a student how would you like being punished if your friends did something wrong and you were innocent? I am a parent and I can’t tell you how destructive it is for a child to be punished for something he didn’t do. I was not there so I don’t know what happened but according to the highest account may 10-12 kids did something wrong( my gut feeling is 2 or 3 kids – but we shouldn’t go by gut)why are you are not demanding an apology for the other 90.
If you are honest the right thing to do is call BMG demand they apologize or you call or visit YOF and apologize.
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