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I saw the meam loez, he makes a pretty big distinction between the two. He says that yaakov was afraid because “eisav was living in eretz yisroel and yaakov was living in chutz laaretz”, whereas by kibuv av he writes “eisav was mekayam kibuv av beshlaimus”
He’s careful to not say that eisav was melayam yishuv eretz yisroel, probably for the above 2 reasons i gave. Some sort of zchus, however, there is.
On second thought…it could be that it’s not the zchus of living in eretz yisroel, but rather that yaakov had the status of a yid in galus, because he wasn’t in eretz yisroel. It doesn’t fit into the words wonderfully, but it is possible.
a more simple explanation is that living in EY is not a mitzva kiyumes. It’s a continuous state. Which should be written as living in EY.
Avira, I gave you 4 sources that you denied existing and you proceed butchering one of them to somehow fit into your original thinking. This is called crystallization – a person prefers his first position even if he encounters contradicting information later. I expected that you would ask yourself a question – is it random that I missed such a midrash, or is it due to where and how I learned and then give a dvar Torah about this Midrash at your shul shalosh sudos and report to us whether your friends did or di not know this.
Aaq, it’s not a particularly famous medrash. And if you think we don’t know the talking points of European Hebrew nationalists, we definitely do. Everyone knows the “domeh lemi sheain lo eloka” and such things.
I’m not stretching it; the second pshat i gave is a stretch, but the first one fits in the words just fine. He doesn’t say that eisav was nekayam yishuv haaretz. And with good reason; eisav was already excluded from inheriting eretz yisroel when yaakov got the brochos.
I’m not saying any big chiddushim. To say that eisav was mekayam a mitzvah of yishuv EY would be the same as saying that efron hachiti was as well.
Not to mention the fact that yishuv EY is meant to be done in order to be mekayam mitzvos hatluyos baaretz.
If you wish for me to accept your understanding of the medrash, you need to answer those 2 kashos. Which you haven’t. You’ve just accused me of ignorance because I’m from an anti-Zionist perspective.
Happens to be that as noted often, i did not grow up abti zionist, and heard tons of European Hebrew nationalism growing up.
I didn’t address the quote from rabbi (Abraham Twersky?) Because you yourself said that you didn’t know where it was. So, we’ll discuss it lekishi’tikshach.
It’s also not four, but two – the medrash quoted in Meam loez, and something you think you saw from a psychiatrist quoting someone who said something about the Gra.
Likewise, in the hebrew national community, is there a great awareness of אין בן דוד בא עד שתכלה ממשלת הדל מישראל?
Or rav saadia saying that klal yisroel is only a nation because of the Torah? (And not European land and language worship)?
My old MO friends were shocked and appaled that such things were said by “some rabbis”
“saw from a psychiatrist quoting someone who said something about the Gra.”
Someone who is willing to forfeit the kovod due a talmid chochom in order to put down a peer is really scraping the barrel. These topics seem to be unhealthy for you. And aaq doesn’t back down even when he’s proven wrong anyways so what’s your point.
It is 4.
Midrash Rabba – why is it now particular famous?! it is called “rabba” somehow
Meam Loez expands on that (as he usually does 🙂
Vilna Gaon – unreferenced by R Twersky. I am sure if you ask in your community, someone knows by heart
R Twersky – expands on both Midrash and Gaon, in his parsha book.Why would someone quote Avigdor Miller, he is just a rabbi from brooklyn
an interesting question – why Yaakov was worried about Esav’s Zionism and not Efron’s. Several ideas:
1) Yaakov is the person who worries about his zechuyos often, Avraham did not so much. R Twersky connects this with low self-esteem in a different place (Midrash that Yaakov was offered a chance to go up the ladder, but did not).
2) We have here an issue of who is inheriting. Not Efron. Esav has zechuyos as part of his claim.
3) Yaakov is afraid of encountering Esav. It is just about comparing with him. Efron could be a tzadik gamur but he is not coming to confront Yaakov.
My apology to R Avigdor Miller ZT’L. I was just testing whether mods are allowing badmouthing of only some Rabonim but not others, seems like they are just in a relaxed mood today.
Then you misunderstood. Your post was only allowed because you were responding to the other poster in like fashion, not to insult Rabbi Miller chalila
Speaking of Eretz Yisroel.
Does anyone know of a mekubal in Israel that they know to be completely legit? Or perhaps a tzaddik with real Ruach Hakodesh?
(Not to insult anyone’s tzidkus, but real open Ruach hakodesh is uncommon).
Please let me know.
Mod, respect.
care to elaborate?
I wasn’t bashing rabbi Twerski; i was saying that a parsha book written by a psychiatrist, who knew how to learn but was – in his own words – not a daas torah, is not some kind of authoritative source. That has nothing to do with rabbonim like rav avigdor miller.
I was talking more about AAQs recollection of the quote than rabbi Twerski.
I also said that eisav had lost his yerushah when yaakov got the brochos; you haven’t addressed that. He had nothing to do with eretz yisroel. He was eliminated from it.
The only tzad i can see is that according to some shitos, eisav had the din of a yisroel mumar, which would make him have a shaychus to yishuv EY, but it’s hard to say that when there’s a drasha of ki B’yitzchok velo kol yitzchak…
Yishuv EY according to many is to drive out the goyim – of which include bnei eisav!Chaimish – rav gamliel Rabinowitz is known as a true mekubal and is accepted by the litvishe and chasidishe community.
Avira > eisav had lost his yerushah when yaakov got the brochos;
Right, but Yaakov is somehow still worrying… Maybe he did not learn those Rashis. Maybe this is a part of Yaakov’s middah of Emes that he is always questioning whether he is good enough and sees zechuyos of others even if there is a tirutz. I can easily see a modern “learned” version of Yaakov meeting Esav’s malach and then proving to him that Esav has no olam habo, etc, convincing the malach to just give up.
Mod, respect that you actually follow the discussion and show flexibility and sense of humor.
Aaq, that’s not how a kasha/terutz works in any beis medrash. We take for granted that the avos knew such things; avrohom kept eruv tavshilin, though it was a gezerah from chazal.
According to you, yaakov knew that there is a zchus of living on eretz yisroel, but didn’t know that it was promised to him and not eisav with the brochos? It was said to him by yitzchak clearly.
But that’s besides the point; we don’t need the drasha of ki B’yitzchok to know that the brochos, which yaakov had and which eisav lost, guaranteed him eretz yisroel, to the exclusion of his brother.
What does that have to do with misas ha’emes? That he can see a zchus which is….not a zchus, because it has nothing to do with the mitzvah of yishuv EY?
I heard from my Rebbi the reason to the referring to the 613 mitzvos to Eisav as one can only perdorm all mitvos through machshava, thought as some don’t apply. Similarly, Yaakov said, that when my father blessed me, he had you in mind, so in reality you were the one who was blessed and not me.
See the sefer from the Tzitz Eliezer in three volumes called הלכות מדינה at hebrewbooks.org
Avira, all the midrashim saying that Yaakov is afraid of this and that point that he is not sure that all the brochos he is getting will be fulfilled. It has to do with emes, as he is always asking himself questions whether he is correct in his actions. As you are suggesting, he could have easily convinced himself – surely, I am a tzaddik and he is a Rasha, I got all the vrochos, im Lavan garti, nothing bad will happen with me.
I have been recommended by my friend Justin to this news sight he said it was a religious sight for news and me being a Jew (father is Jewish) I asked my religious leader if I was Jewish and she said yes, but I was walking and I was stopped on the road by a Jew with hair on the side and everything like that because I was wearing my Jew hat that I got at a different synagogue from a basket they had at the entrance of the prayer room. He asked me if I was Jewish, and I said my father was a Jew but not my mother, and he told me I was not Jewish, I told him my leader said I was a Jew.
Am I Jewish???I have been recommended by my friend Justin to this news sight he said it was a religious sight for news and me being a Jew (father is Jewish) I asked my religious leader if I was Jewish and she said yes, but I was walking and I was stopped on the road by a Jew with hair on the side and everything like that because I was wearing my Jew hat that I got at a different synagogue from a basket they had at the entrance of the prayer room. He asked me if I was Jewish, and I said my father was a Jew but not my mother, and he told me I was not Jewish, I told him my leader said I was a Jew.
Am I Jewish???Avimi, I suggest visiting a different website. For starters, try
https://www.chabad.org/asktherabbi/default_cdo/jewish/Ask-the-Rabbi.htm
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