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How much stronger would we be as a people and country if there were at least basic laws in Israel for Shabbos and Kosher? I mean of course you cant force people to become frum, but at least if the country was based on a religious core such as busses not running on Shabbos, stores closed on Shabbos, and no non kosher foods to be sold or restaurants serving non kosher? The Muslims do it in their lands and much worse laws than hat, so why cant we. Is it a possibility? I would say the palestinian problem would go away real quick if the land was purified and respected. We openly see the Tzaros and they are clearly from the disgrace that the founders had in mind when hey established the country.
IF Israel were frum by our standards, it would lose about half of its population, including most of the personnel in the most important military units, and most of the “StartUP Nation” type industries. You would lose the massive secular tourism industry, and would lose most support from Jews outside of Israel (most of whom are very secular, very rich and well connected politically).
If you are Chareidi-enough to accept a much lower standard of living, and willing to make the necessary concessions to live under Muslim rule-getting rid of the hilonim is a great idea. IF you prefer that Israel be a westernized modern country with a strong military, you probably don’t want to go gung-ho in desecularizing Eretz Yisrael.
You could see what the old yishuv was like. Not too much development and slight disagreement with authority driving people away.
My four decades of experience with secular Jews taught me this lesson:
Nothing is more futile than attempting to influence secular Jews in the direction of mitzvah observance. It is a total waste of time, 99.95% of the time.
Charedim refusing to serve in the Israeli Army has made the Charedim the most hated people in Israel โ even more hated than the Arabs!
Add to that the many scandals involving Charedim, that make Charedim even more hated.
Add to that the high percentage of Charedim in Israel who do not pay taxes because they do not work, this makes Charedim even more hated.
Charedim cannot influence secular Jews to mitzvah observance, because Charedim are the most hated people in Israel.
Instead of trying to improve secular Jews, Charedim should try to improve themselves.
Wow…. that’s extremely hateful.
I guess the hundreds of thousands of people attending kiruv seminars from rabbis who are charedi just are the 1%.
You’re projecting your own hatred of charedim on secular Jews. Many have animosity towards charedim, but most don’t.
Also, let the army become a place where jews can be frum safely and then see if charedim are so against serving in it. It’s like making a national banquet with treif and then castigating those eho don’t attend.
Maybe fix yourself before telling the Torah world to fix itself?
News flash, Chillul shabbos is the same in EY, USA, Kenya and New Zeeland
Trife is the same worldwide.
We are in golus in BP, Efrat, Chevon or Miami, we don’t own the land, at least not yet“I mean of course you cant force people to become frum”
Yes you can force people to become frum. Indeed, we’re obligated to force people to become frum.
Perhaps what you meant to write is that since the Goyim and the Frei control the governments and make the laws they use those tools to stop us from forcing people to become frum, as we’re required to do. But, certainly, under proper circumstances we can and should force people to become frum.
Israel is a democracy, which is great because we Jews are not uniform, nor do we see eye to eye. This means that there is room for different people to live differently. We are obligated to encourage shabbas, kashrus observance etc. But this is not a theocracy, and we cannot and will not force anyone to follow hallacha.
Unlike the US, there is a universal minimum standard of kashrus, geirus, etc, which is enshrined in law. This allows those who want to maintain a hallachik standard to do so, and those who want a higher standard can add to this common standard as desired.
The ahavas yisrael among nearly all Israelis is very hard to appreciate if you don’t see it for yourself. When you stop trying to “change” people, and focus on loving them, you will see unbelievable people driven by neshamos yearning for a better world. And these salt of the earth people, our brothers and sisters, and by and large maaminim. It’s amazing.
Let’s focus on what is right, and built toward the tomorrow we want to see.
Unfortunately many, not all, Chareidim have made Yiddishkeit very ugly. The brand of Yiddishkeit they espouse is very extreme, overzealous etc. Why would a secular person be inspired by that?
Yo, that’s weird, because have you seen how many baalei teshuva become charedi?
You may want to take a closer look at the chareidim that brought them there
disclaimer: not to be taken as a haskama for YO’s anti chareidi bigotry
There are many rabbonim and tzadikim in the past few decades who have said that if there’s any issues with religion in EY such as chilul shabbos etc, it’s ONLY because of the frum memebers of society.
YO (Ye?), Name which “many rabbonim and tzadikim” you’re referring to, big shot. We both know that you won’t be able to name even one mainstream rabbi, since it is non-existent, let alone “many rabbonim and tzadikim”.
During the times of the Bais HaMikdash, we were on a much much higher madreiga and there was a halachic rule over the land. Yet it still didn’t stop hundreds of thousands from being open avaryanim in some of the most disgusting ways possible. This resulted in the worst punishment in history of having our Bayis destroyed and exiled to galus.
Who are we to think that a “Jewish Israel” would some how not suffer the same fate?
I think that there’s a great tension between two issues, both of which are berumo shel olam. On the one hand, as long as the state identifies itself as Jewish, it is a massive, heretofore unparaleled chilul Hashem, that a Jewish country is not run according to Halacha, which means that there are two options: enforce Halacha on a national level, which rabbi yoshe ber soloveitchik predicated his support for the state thereon, or let the state cease to be called Jewish, and just become a nation of its citizens, with equal rights, etc…like America.
If it were to become halachik, the enforcement will incur protests and frum jews might be killed by secularists. That doesnt mean necessarily that it shouldnt be done, but it is an important factor.
We might not be obligated in restricting the sinfulness of others as we are today, but as long as a “Jewish” state purports to exist, it would be so obligated.
In the second option, the fallout is that frei jews in israel will lose the small amount of kiyum hamitzvos that the state facilitates; the rabbanut would be basically dissolved, kashrus would disappear, shabbos would be like sunday, government might not be able to fund yeshivos, too.
Gerus would be like it is in america; autonomous rabbinic organizations and batei din who work together with shared standards, but not state-run.
I’m not sure which is better.
A strong country is one that unites to a common goal. An enforced standard makes a country appear. If anything, it makes it more vulnerable.
“Yes you can force people to become frum.”
Most liberal statement of all time.
“During the times of the Bais Hamidash ….. there was (a) halachic rule over the land…”
Possible. I would be very thankful if someone can provide a real source either way.
“….. identifies itself as Jewish…..”
Are you insinuating that being Jewish can be achieved by mere self-identification? If not, what’s the problem?
You cannot force people to be frum. You can inspire them, you can show them the beautiful stuff of Yiddishkeit, but you cannot coerce. Or, you can just accept that Yidden come in different levels. The only time that it can be a Halachic state is when we will have a Sanhedrin. But let’s suppose we do have a Halachic state, then whose psakim do we follow? Who decides what is allowed and what is not?
Bais din forced people to keep halacha well after the churban. We force ad shetaytzei nafsho to be mekayam a deoraysoh and punish with makaa mardus for a derabonon violation, makos for a laav.
Of course halacha was enforced. Something that you thought was pashut in your youth which you discovered was false (like avrohom wearing a streimel) must have made you question everything, to the point of absurdity.
The Halacha is very clear and explicit. If someone isn’t frum, Beis Din is obligated to beat him senseless, if necessary, until he becomes frum.
A couple questions:
1) Does the Torah give a Beis Din have the authority to punish people for private behavior, meaning not b’farhesia?
2) Does the Torah require a beis din to investigate and pass judgment *all* suspected violations of the Torah within its authority (rather than having discretion to enforce where it seems likely to have good results)?
If the answer to either of these questions is “no”, then it would be incorrect to state that the Torah requires a beis din to force people to be frum.
It is not the Beis Din that punished people in EY but the shotrim, the police who took them to the Beis Din to force them to follow the Torah.
aseh, if two aidim come and say that ish ploni ate a kazayis chazir in his bedroom, he is liable for makos. The only differences between public and private relate to kanoim pogim bo, and the status of a mechalel shabbos in public, which has the din of a goy.
Beis din has essentially unlimited authority, as they can punish in horaas shaah even when halacha doesnt require it, to teach a lesson.
Avira, your description is theoretic. Batei din were not blind to social conditions: They stopped death penalties when murders increased so that there was no more deterrent; During BM2, there were Persian, Greeks, Romans, Hashmonai Kings; Tzdukim; Zealots, etc who had their own powers, not always in line w/ Batei dinim. There were Jews in Alexandria who lived by their own rules, I believe…
Aaq, source?
Tannaim like rebbe tarfon held lehalacha not to execute people. It wasn’t a social issue, that’s haskalah zechariah frankel baloney. Learn sugyos, like rav Hirsch said, from the Torahs own perspective. Drop the academics. Learn meforshim, and you’ll have an idea of how torah works.
Alexandria – huh? Own rules? Hefkerus? Source again, and if some jews go against the Torah it doesn’t mean that it’s ok.
Avira,
a good question, I would need to look around; this is a general impression from various mentions in Gemora; Shabbat 15 talks about death penalty ending when sanhedrin left BM, Pnei Yeohusha discusses increase in murderers, prob others also. It may be that secular powers limit beis din, pls review the meforshim there, I’ll try also, bli neder. Re: Alexandria, see PhiloI am sorry to say I am more ignoramus than apikores, I did not learn Frankel. Maybe I his gilgul? I am not sure what I said, but a C-rabbi once asked me “do you believe that halakha changed”. I answered, puzzled “yes”. So, he almost hugged me (that was precovid) and said “so you agree with us”? I answered, with even more puzzled expression on my face: “no”. That was the end of his warmth. Shortest conversation evah.
RW, you should go visit Israel with a fresh look. Rather than looking for violators, you might find a lot of places with kosher food only, a lot of people stopping working Friday afternoon and experiencing Shabbat way earlier than many in galut. Same as Rashbi noticing a Jew running with two bouquets in honor of shamor and zachor.
Nothing more interesting than listening to golus jews in cushie americhka discussing what is going on in our holy land.. a gift from HKBH, remember Him?? Try to read the birkat hamazon once with kavana.. So many amazing Israelis becoming shomrei Shabbat.. ye thats nothing according to some.. a total waste of time??Nothing is more futile then to tell golus jews, so totally disconnected from a true Jewish life that they are missing out on EVERYTHING. Every step you take in EY is a mitzvah. Anyway, HKBH should melt your heart of stone!!! Shabbat Shalom from Eretz Yisrael, Israel, the holy land, the land of milk and honey, a land that Hshems eye is always on, the physical and spiritual center of the universe. Enjoy feeling special and different from goim and fooling yourself. Yes, I am being sarcastic.. because ain koach od to see this incredible hypocricy and dishonesty with self..
Good point Leah
Leah… Ever hear of a strawman?
Re: beis din in old times. IT is Avoda Zara 8b: there were so many murderers that beis din could not prosecute all, and moved out so that there will be no death penalty
ื”ื ืืืื ืืืื ืื ืคืืฉื ืืื ืจืืฆืืื ืืื ืืืื ืืืืื ืืืจื ืืืื ื ืืื
ืืืงืื ืืืงืื ืื ืืืื ืืื ืืืืืืืYou think Beis Din didn’t prosecute murderers if they technically couldn’t issue a death penalty verdict?
bring your sources and explain what you think
Leah, I have noticed a few times where Israelis refer to Yidden outside of EY as Gulos Jews! Living in EY does not mean you arent a Gulos Jew as Moshiach has not come.. not even in EY!!
Aaq, there’s a stirah in that gemara to elsewhere where chazal say that if a beis din sees that someone is a danger to the community, they’d put them in a jail cell and let them die without giving them food, since they couldn’t kill them biyadayim
I love how people (especially ืฆืืื ืื) think theyโre โbetter than youโ itโs the primary reason for ืฉื ืืช ืืื ื and stops them from doing introspection
ืื ืชืืื ืืช ืืืืจืโฆ.
Avira, yes, I recall that option (in Makos?). I think it is a general statement of an option available to beis din in cases where do not have acceptable witnesses but are sure of the guilt. Nothing to do with the political situation during late BM2, which is what Gemoras in Shabbos and AZ are talking about.
coffee, Yaakov was afraid that Esav had 2 mitzvos – live in EY and respect for parents. I would not be hutzpadik with, for example, someone who does those 2, and eats kosher, and keeps shabbat, and served in the army, just because he is not wearing the hat you do.
@cascade, how very well put, we are in golus everywhere, Bnai Brak, Efrat, Kiryat Sefer, they are golus yidden as well
aaq, if a person serves in the army because they believe in kochi ve’otzem yadi, which many people do (of course, we dont know about individual soldiers), it is hardly something to respect.
edited – enough name calling
aaq, who mentions yishuv EY regarding eisav? Kibuv av, yes, but I dont remember seeing that anywhere.
And with good reason. The mitzvah of yishuv EY is more of a hechsher mitzvah to be mekayam mitzvos tluyos baarets, of which, eisav ostensibly kept none. Also, that mitzvah had not been given at all yet, since there was no kibush, only a promise. That was the ta’anah of the shepherds of Lot; the land is already ours, but that was not true (hagam, some say the guf hakarka belonged to avrohom but not the peiros…gets complicated, but even so, “beyitzchak yikarei…” was said, and at the point that yaakov was worried, eisav had already lost the right to EY to yaakov, so I have a very hard time believing someone says that eisav was mekayam yishuv EY, for both reasons I mentioned.
Rightwriter: do you live in the US or EY?
If you do live in the US spare us the pontificating, move to EY, join an Anglo community, vote for the Chareidi m and pat yourself and your community members backs for how holy you are for leaving golus.
The pro Aliyah crowd that remains in the US is hilarious.
> who mentions yishuv EY
Bereshis Rabba. Meam Loez quotes it.
Rav Twersky also quotes Gra on this in the context of Gra failing to reach EY. Would be interesting to see the context if someone can find it.
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