Jewifying someone's iPod

Please explain how you can possibly know this? Are you a moderator?

Everybody knows that the CR is not a place for Halachic psak, “ask your LOR” is a standard rule here. I should not have used the words definitely permitted. I am no Rav and I hope nobody uses my words to pasken anything.

However, I do not think there was anything wrong with what I wrote there – if you have a question of any sort, please feel free to respond!

You have quoted Rabbanim – Gedolei HaPoskim who I cannot argue with – maybe let’s try understand exactly what is Assur now! Based on my arguments above, why is it Gezeila?

(I did not address Sheker {I Agree}, although that shouldn’t be a problem with a CD I buy in a shop/copying somebody elses CD, because I didn’t click! I know absoultely nothing about ???? ????and I posted above about ???? ???????, which will turn out to be a ??????.)

Back to the discussion: Why is there a problem of me copying music from somebody else? Exactly what ????? is there?

Thinking back, isn’t there a ????? in ??? ??? somewhere (I have never learnt ??? ???, but I have come across it somewhere else) about ????? ???, like a story of somebody who blocks the door to another guys shop, stopping shoppers buying things? Where there is no real ????? or ?????, nor is there ?????

Which Lav is Dina D’malchusa? Unless Rav Belsky meant Geneiva, when Dina D’malchusa dictates who something belongs to or which rights he has. Whenever you’ll find Dina D’malchusa it is in this context. The Malchus has the ability to be Kove’a certain things. We probably depend on that for the Kinyan of checks and wire-transfers.

Tosafos in Bava Basra 2b learns that Hezek She’eino Nikkar means a Hezek that isn’t obvious, not necessarily that the loss is not physical. Therefore, planting grapes too close to someone’s field is a Hezek Nikkar, while putting a Sheretz on fruits is not obvious because we can’t tell if they are Muchshar.

Yekke, I think that about your case it just says that you can call him a Rasha.

Let’s not forget, Ve’asisa Hayashar Vehatov. This applies to Dina D’baal Metzra, Ani Hamehapech Bacharara and Hashavas Aveida Lefnim Mishuras Hadin.

jbaldy22–

“From what I heard his reasoning was because it is not sold on the market any more it is not assur.“

Ah, that may be different. There is an ethical debate about copying “abandonware”, and further, Rav Belsky permits the copying of music that’s no longer available for sale anywhere: “A CD or tape which is no longer sold in stores and is not possible to buy may be copied from a friend. However, one must make sure that the item is really not available for purchase. Many old tapes are still being sold online (by the original producer or someone who bought the rights to them).“

Source: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/weekly_torah.php?id=398

“My second (good) proof was from the fact then when asked the question about the i wouldnt have bought it svara he didnt just say its gneiva either way – he just said that the logic doesnt follow.“

This can also be read that the logic doesn’t follow and therefore it’s g’neiva.

“The reason youve never heard anyone talking about my nochri distinction is because no posek in their right mind would ever want to be quoted on such a thing.“

Maybe, maybe not. This is a instance of more to discuss, but not on a public forum (sorry).

“Also by the way the government doesnt prosecute pirates any more they only prosecute uploaders – you could probably download a program in front of a cop and they wouldnt do anything to you. Which is why similarly to HUD dina dmalchusa would not apply according to many poskim.“

Interesting svora. I wasn’t aware that the govt. either officially or unofficially doesn’t go after illegal downloaders. Have you actually heard this from a rov?

BTW, I have no idea what HUD aspect you’re referring to, but I suspect it may also be a “non-public-forum” issue.

HaLeiVi–

“Which Lav is Dina D’malchusa? “

I don’t know. This was just a quick question I asked at the end of a discussion, and I didn’t follow up.

“Unless Rav Belsky meant Geneiva, when Dina D’malchusa dictates who something belongs to or which rights he has. Whenever you’ll find Dina D’malchusa it is in this context. The Malchus has the ability to be Kove’a certain things. We probably depend on that for the Kinyan of checks and wire-transfers.“

Once again, I don’t know. If an unethical “chochom” tries to play games based on the differences between a halachik kinyan and U.S. law, I don’t know how that would be handled.

“Tosafos in Bava Basra 2b learns that Hezek She’eino Nikkar means a Hezek that isn’t obvious, not necessarily that the loss is not physical. Therefore, planting grapes too close to someone’s field is a Hezek Nikkar, while putting a Sheretz on fruits is not obvious because we can’t tell if they are Muchshar.“

True, Tosfos is clearly using the term “nikar” to mean “you can tell while the damage is being done that it is a hezek”, such as klayim still attached to the ground.

“Let’s not forget, Ve’asisa Hayashar Vehatov. “

I strongly agree.

Let’s not forget that people’s parnasa is dependent on their getting paid for their work. Or, in Rav Belsky’s words, “That’s very important to remember. Someone sweated nights and invested money and time in order to create a certain item that the public is interested in, and then he’s ready to sell it. And then it turns out that some Napster type of enterprise gets its hands on it, and people end up paying zero for it.”

5five, the reason I mentioned examples of non physical damage that Chazal reckoned with is to allow for the possibility of intelectual property to be considered stolen Al Pi Din.

The law adapted to the new circumstance. Halacha probably recognizes it too, based on Dina D’malchusa. It might also be a twist on Geneivas Daas. Stealing someone’s mindwork shouldn’t be worse than tricking. It is actually stealing somebody’s work.

If a Poel does work you must pay him. If you hire someone to dye your clothing and then secretly stick in more clothing that would be stealing his work. If you would be paying for the job of making a CD or if you would commission a programmer to write you a sophisticated program, you would be paying by the hour.

If someone makes the program on his own in order to sell it, he is essencially doing your work before you ask for it, and spreading the cost to all the customers. By giving another would-have-been customer his ready made job you are stealing that Chelek of work from the Poel.

Haleivi, your explanation sounds reasonable but Reb Moshe didnt explain it to mean that in his teshuva. Perhaps Reb Moshe only used the term colloquially? You also need to distinguish between a case where the copy caused a lost sale and where it did not.

42,

Interesting. What’s even more interesting to me is that if true, that would dispel a theory of mine, that if it’s not geneiva, there might be issues of lo s’chonem to purchase what is available b’chinom. It would seem that plain and simple fairness makes it a benefit for the purchaser to pay for what he uses.

HaLeiVi,

Interesting theory. It would explain very nicely the distinction between a case of a lost sale and a case where there is no lost sale, because the poel only worked for those who would purchase the item.

Sb,

What’s crossover? It sounds like an program that converts a pc based program to Mac based program, is that correct?

Davka, IIRC, allows two installations, one on a pc and one on a laptop, as long as they’re not used simultaneously. Assuming they don’t make a Mac version, I can’t see why it’s a problem, and it might be ok even if they do. You should contact them; I understand the owner is an ehrliche Yid and reasonable.

I just checked on Davka’s site. It seems that they make Davkawriter7 in a Mac version, but not 6.

This is from their FAQ section:

How do I run DavkaWriter 6 on my Mac?

Posted on February 16, 2011 by Davka Tech Support

DavkaWriter is, essentially, a Windows program. There is no Mac version.

If you use Windows on your Mac, as many Mac users do, or if you use Windows emulation or virtualization, you can run DavkaWriter in that configuration.

Some alternatives for this are:

Those all require the user to have a copy of Windows XP, Vista, or 7. These alternatives provide full DavkaWriter functionality.

ICOT,

That makes 5five?

Maybe he meant abandonware like OS/2?

OS means Operating System. Every computer has an operating system. I think he’s referring to a much older operating system from the early 1990’s…

snowbunny-

ehrlich means honest:)