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As far as those things mentioned, lying about age for a cheaper ticket is pretty much outright theft. Buying with specific intent to return is probably not, but is something I’m very uncomfortable with, have never done, and have told others they should not have done.
Avram
the differnce between to Bridge guy and the stadium guy is the Stadium guy was more deliberate in his attention to deciece and he was proably bragging to everyone what a Illuy he was for thinking of it.
The Bridge guy was more of a fool, I doubt he realized they would send divers out to look for him, but he did probably put people in greater danger than the stadium guy
I actually wonder if the police would really respond as they did in the fictional story.
I don’t know, it seems to me that the bridge guy did what a lot of people would do in that situation.
And by the way, ask anyone who knows me- I try to be as careful as possible when it comes to sheker, sometimes to a fault.
(And since this thread referred to a football game- I once had a boy tell me on a date that he admires the Patriots because they’ll do anything to get an edge. Huge red flag for me.)
What is the halachic difference between geneivas akum and geneiva?
DY: Why do you say buying with the specific intent to return is probably not?
The seller’s intention is to give the buyer a feeling of security that they can return it hassle free should something not work out. It is not a rental policy, and buying it al menas ken is tantamount to gezel.
It’s also a violation of dina d’malchusa (legally it’s called return fraud) and most of all a chillul Hashem.
Son, some stores have a no questions asked return policy. I was unaware of the law being that way, I will check into it. I agree that it’s a chillul Hashem when such behavior becomes associated with frum people, but otherwise (this is theoretical), how would anyone know your intention? This is also why I have some scepticism of that being the law; how can such intent be legislated?
Edit: Wikipedia does say it is illegal. How would this be enforced, though?
Doesn’t it depend on whether you use the item?
Why would someone but something with the intention to return it without using it?
The Bridge is not fictional and thats how the police act, if you do a quick google you will see whenever the police suspect a bridge jumper they do a search for the body. Unfortunatly its pretty common people jump off the GW Bridge and there is even a sign on it, saying Life is worth living and the number for the suicide prevention hotline
How do you know it’s not fictional?
Do you belive every story of Emunah that comes up like the one of Rav Kanivesky and the man with the scar who had trouble going on dates? and the next girl was the one he saved?
I belive it because its very beliveable. People jump off the GW Bridge all the time, Getting stuck in traffic right before shabbos also happens all the time on Fridays. And I also belive many people in the same circumstance would do the same thing
BTW I saw a Sheet from Baltimore on just this very subject it seems people getting stuck on the way between NYC and Baltimore happens fairly often and the sheet gave what to do
So you believe that it’s something which could realistically happen, but why do you believe it actually did happen? Do you believe that I’m a redhead? It’s not unrealistic, but you don’t have any reason to think it’s actually true.
Sometimes people buy things to look at and return if they don’t like it. Or there’s an online deal in which purchases over a specified amount are shipped free but you can return any of the items at no cost.
so what should the guy do? drive on Shabbos so people don’t think he jumped off the bridge??
Do you give the same questions to every “emunah story” that people relate?
And there are some Ive heard that are impossible to have occured yet people insist they occured.
Do you belive the Talking Fish Story? Did you give that story the same 3rd degree. This one very likely happend.
Hashemisreading- I agree- I don’t get what else the guy was supposed to have done. Maybe walked to the police station and reported it?? I mean, come on!
In Answer to the Halacha since simiar situations have come up and ive heard it discussed.
Here is what you should do, 1) dont go on the bridge if you dont think you can get across, If a case happens where the bridge shuts down when you are on the bridge and cant get on or off, try to get a goy to drive your car at least until you get off the bridge (I heard this directly from a R’Y)
Sometimes people buy things to look at and return if they don’t like it.
That would be legitimate use of the return policy.
Or there’s an online deal in which purchases over a specified amount are shipped free but you can return any of the items at no cost.
That would presumably be return abuse/fraud.
ZD, again, nobody claimed it did, so why do you think so? There are a lot of believable things which never happened.
DY: No questions asked still doesn’t mean they’re making it a rental policy. It’s simply an incentive for the buyer to keep it as hassle-free as possible.
As far as how it’s enforced: I don’t know.
zahavasdad,
People jump off the GW Bridge all the time, Getting stuck in traffic right before traffic also happens all the time on Fridays. And I also belive many people in the same circumstance would do the same thing
I actually don’t think that either story (missing kid “Mincha Service” at a football game and the GW Bridge Shabbos divers) is true, although for the sake of the discussion here it doesn’t really matter, since both stories reflect basic themes that are true. They may well have been based on true stories with details that got changed or exaggerated over time with the retelling.
1. Reporting a missing kid would result in a search and police response, not just a loudspeaker announcement (would a little kid be able to find his way to “Section 301, left side”?), and subsequently big trouble for the guy who reported what turned out to be a fabrication. If such a thing were actually done, it would have been a request to locate an adult who got separated from his party.
2. When you originally presented the story, you said the guy was driving into Manhattan from Teaneck, but the version in the link you provided had the guy driving out of the City to the Catskills.
3. Given a stopped car with flashers on, I would think the most likely conclusion would be that the car was abandoned due to malfunction. Would police really send divers into the cold river without a witness to the jump, a suicide note, or any other indication? How would they even know where in the river to search?
4. Would the police really be instantly angry when someone turned out not to be dead?
Lots of people claim the talking Fish story is true
2. When you originally presented the story, you said the guy was driving into Manhattan from Teaneck, but the version in the link you provided had the guy driving out of the City to the Catskills.
Frankly when i originally posted the story it was from memory, I later googled it, but frankly it doesnt really matter which way he was going as the driver went to Washington Heights to a friends house.
I dont think its legal to abandon a car on the Bridge, signs say STAY IN YOUR CAR. the reasons are 2 fold one is safety and the other is terrorism (The busiest bridge in the world is a prime target for terrorism)
Is it possible the story was embelished, Of course, but the gist is he abandoned the car and since this is a fairly common occurance you would think the police would have a good idea where the body went when the person jumped
DY: No questions asked still doesn’t mean they’re making it a rental policy. It’s simply an incentive for the buyer to keep it as hassle-free as possible.
Could be, it could also mean that they think enough people will decide to keep the item that it’s worth it for them.
ZD, Rabbi Mordechai Kamenetzky writes “Parsha Parables”. He didn’t mean to write it as a true,story, just to bring out a point, to consider how our actions affect others.
In that situation, leave a note.
Could be, it could also mean that they think enough people will decide to keep the item that it’s worth it for them.
That’s very likely true, but I’d argue that’s only b’dieved – cutting your losses because thieves will be thieves – and not a business plan.
Having been in similar circumstance, people begin to panic and I dont think he was thinking properly and a note proably isnt going to happen
DaasYochid,
In that situation, leave a note.
Exactly what I was thinking.
Predictions on the game the New York team or the New Jersey team?
What game?
The Bochers vs the Averiachs
“Reporting a missing kid would result in a search and police response, not just a loudspeaker announcement (would a little kid be able to find his way to “Section 301, left side”?)”
Perhaps I didnt relate the story as accurately or as clearly as I could. They didnt say a little kid was missing. they told security they couldnt find a member of their party and asked to please have him paged and gave his name as mincha service. do you truly believe security would launch an all out frontal attack on the stadium if those who are reporting a member of their party missing are not worried in any way?
“Predictions on the game the New York team or the New Jersey team?”
This reminds me of a great Pete Franklin rant. One season during the late 80s only the Bills made the playoffs and he lamented that there was no playoff football in ny. A caller called in to remind him that the bills were in the playoffs. He went on a rant for almost 15 minutes about how buffalo is not ny! I didnt like the guy much but that rant was a classic!
“cutting your losses because thieves will be thieves – and not a business plan.”
In my company it is built into the pricing. We know X amount of dollars will be lost because “thieves will be thieves”.
Whats hard to believe about the story is that a guy coming from Teaneck would abandon his car as opposed to using a Shabbos App to drive it to his destination. The story could have happened with someone from Lakewood, if you change the GW to the Outerbridge.
I know a fellow who would be considered Modern Orthodox who abandoned his car and wallet one erev Shabbos and walked several hours in the snow to get home.
Uphill, with no shoes
Scoff all you want, it’s a true story, and not unusual for a frum person, MO or otherwise, to be moser nefesh for Shabbos.
I really know a MO guy who was taking the train Home and the train got delayed and he got off the train at shabbos, left his wallet at a laudry mat and stayed up all night. Turns out he actually was in an area with a shul but he didnt know and Shabbos morning he saw some people walking to shul and spent the rest of the day at the Rabbis house.
His wife was going crazy especially after she got a got on the answering machine from the laundry mat
Especially after she got a message? What kind of message? If he left a message that he got stuck, at least she knew he was in a safe place.
On the answering machine, she left the volume on so she could hear a message
The husband did not call, the Laundry place called making the situation worse
In my company it is built into the pricing. We know X amount of dollars will be lost because “thieves will be thieves”.
Fascinating. How do you relate to such a customer though? It’s largely theoretical because you can’t be sure/have a policy etc, but do you take the person to be a stealing? In a case where you would be able to enforce the law, would you?
Well there goes the Jets Thursday night game.
Nu, ZD, so who won, the Avrexes, or the Boichers?
The Averechs told the Bocherim if they won there would be no chulent this week, so the Bocherim let the Averichem win
To the OP’s question, my guess is the maariv minyan never happend since the Jets lost, maybe had they prayed harder they would have won
Lol
No, the maariv munyan never happened because the child never ended getting lost.
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