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44 years ago, Yerushalayim became under Jewish control. It was a nes, a true solid miracle! Why didn’y Yeshiva World bother to mention it in their main news stories of the day? It doesn’t need to have a Zionist or a “State” twist. Just a public acknowledgement to the IDF soldiers who fought for our precious City of Gold and the hotel Kosel would have been nice….anyone disagree?
Mordechai Ben David has a song about this called ‘Yerushalayim is not for sale’.
SuperJew613 – Sorry to inform you but your statement of “Yerushalayim became under Jewish control”, is somewhat misleading. While it’s correct that the Medina took over, it’s definitely not under Jewish control. We are still in Golus and goyim still go up everyday onto the Har Habayis. This is a terrible disgrace. So what are you celebrating exactly?
So what are you celebrating exactly?
- Being able to daven at the Kosel
- Being able to live in Yerushalayim (a zchus so important that a husband may divorce his wife without a ????? if she doesn’t want to accompany him there)
- Being able to rebuild ?????? ???????, which, according to the ????, is a prerequisite for ???? to come
(to name a few)
You don’t have to be a Zionist, but sometimes the knee-jerk antagonism can make a person look somewhat foolish. Just because we are in Golus doesn’t mean nothing good can happen. Just because a “terrible disgrace” that has happened for thousands of years continues doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t celebrate the good.
maybe instead of calling this Yeshiva World News the name should be changed to Neturei Karta. World news
Health also mentioned that for the most part BT aren’t welcom into the fold, so know who you are dealing with…by the way that was a horrible comment, perhaps the worst I have ever read here.
Mike – I hate to wake you up to reality, but I never said that. Go back and read that topic -now closed!
BTW, you don’t have to be Neturay Karta, not to hold from the Medina!
Shalom -I’m not interested in fighting with Tzionim, but your points have no validity.
“1.Being able to daven at the Kosel
2.Being able to live in Yerushalayim (a zchus so important that a husband may divorce his wife without a ????? if she doesn’t want to accompany him there)
3.Being able to rebuild ?????? ???????, which, according to the ????, is a prerequisite for ???? to come”
1. They davened at the Kosel before ’48.
2. & 3. As far as I know all of Yerushalyim this would apply to, not just the old city.
So again what are you celebrating? Perhaps your political views are affecting your Judgment!
Health,
I am no ????? in the modern sense of the word (people to whom I like to refer as neo-Zionists). I am a Chareidi just like you. I just don’t like when people blindly feel a need to be “anti” to the point of sounding ludicrous.
Do I celebrate Yom Yerushalayim? No.
Do I think that it is proper to celebrate it? Not as a ??? ???.
Do I have a problem with people who celebrate it? Not any more than anyone who wants to celebrate a secular holiday. Unless of course they violate halacha (as it is generally understood by ??? ??????), such as saying ??? with a ????.
Do I think that what happened in 1967 was good for ??? ????? and a ??? from Hashem for which we have to thank Him? Absolutely!
You mentioned that we are still in ????. Of course you are right…I hate when ?????? refer to ??? ???? as ????, as if to say that Israel is not. You mentioned the disgrace that ???? still have unfettered access to ?? ????. That is true. But what does that have to do with thanking Hashem for other ????? he did?
As far as davening at the Kosel before 1948, that is true. They also had a ??? ????? before it was destroyed. What’s your point? When Hashem rebuilds the ??? ????? (may it be ????? ??????) will you wave it off, saying “no big deal, Hashem, we used to have one too” ??!! The fact is that after 1948 we were not able to, and if not for the ????? of 1967, we would not be able to daven there. Thank You Hashem for what happened in 1967!
And regard to the ??? of ??? ????? ???????? and rebuilding ?????? ???????, both are ???? in ????? ??????? and therefore only apply to areas which were within the wall of ??????? at the time of ??? ???. The vast majority of that is within the current Old City, and even the part that isn’t was for the most part inaccessible to yidden before 1967. (The only ???? in which areas of ??????? outside the walls of ??? ??? still have the same status as ??????? proper is Purim, which is ???? in being ???? ????? and not being “inside” it.)
“Why didn’y Yeshiva World bother to mention it in their main news stories of the day?”
Well, I created a Jerusalem Day thread in the coffee room and it got almost no responses. Maybe YWN understands that its readers don’t care about Jerusalem.
don’t care about Jerusalem.
I find that comment rather offensive. It is false, and there is no reason to accuse us of that.
ravshalom – After you clarified your position, I agree with a lot of your post.
Let me clarify my points.
“2.Being able to live in Yerushalayim (a zchus so important that a husband may divorce his wife without a ????? if she doesn’t want to accompany him there)”
This probably doesn’t apply nowadays because we hold that Yerushalyim doesn’t have Kedusha nowadays. See Chasam Sofer.
Also, the Churvos could have been built before ’48.
“The fact is that after 1948 we were not able to, and if not for the ????? of 1967, we would not be able to daven there. Thank You Hashem for what happened in 1967!”
This statement I agree with, but most celebrating Yom Yerushalyim are celebrating the Medina and not Hashem!
Therefore I pondered if someone causes something and they do something to correct it, do you owe them Hakoras hatov?
I doubt it; they caused the Jordanians not to let us in the old city. So no Hakoras Hatov or Yom Yerushalayim or Yom Hatzmos for me!
Health,
Suppose that the Arabs had won the 1948 war, that the Medinah had not survived. Do you really think we’d be able to daven at the Kotel?
popa,
The Jerusalem Day thread got ten comments. You were not one of the commenters.
charlie:
I was not one of the posters. I don’t even recall seeing the thread. And if I had, I probably wouldn’t have clicked on it, since I can’t imagine there would be any content I would have anything to add to.
I am very happy that we are able to visit Yerushalayim and the Kosel.
I do love Yerushalayim.
You should not accuse me of not loving it.
Suppose that the Arabs had won the 1948 war, that the Medinah had not survived. Do you really think we’d be able to daven at the Kotel?
Suppose the ’48 war was not instigated by the maneuvering of the Zionists, then the pre-48 conditions would remain.
shlishi -Thanx for responding for me -well said!
How can you say there is nothing to celebrate. You ask Hashem three times a day:
“???????????????? ??????? ??????????? ????????. ?????????? ????????? ????????? ???????????. ??????? ?????? ???????? ??????????? ???????? ?????. ???????? ????? ??????? ???????? ???????:”
You ask Hashem everyday to build up Jerusalem, yet when he does it you say “What is there to celebrate?”
You are kidding right?
OdAmiChay – Sorry to inform you. We don’t believe like you Tzionim that it has happenned yet. The Medina is not the beginning of the Geula. What we are saying in davening -is that Hashem should build up Yerushalayim with the Bais Hamikdash. It’s a one package deal! Where did you learn differently?
Odamichai:
I am asking for G-d to return the shechina to Jerusalem, not for the buildings to be rebuilt.
OdAmiChay- agreed.
Health and shlishi- Please, now you are saying what the Arabs are saying, meaning that we “deserved” to be attacked by six Arab countries all because the UN gave us a medina. Read the book HaTekufa HaGedola by HaRav Menachem Mendel Kasher, it might help you get a broader picture of this issue. Saying Yerushalayim has no Kedusha anymore is not correct. Halachically, the Chasam Sofer holds there is no Kedusha (it is a machlokes, see Rambam Hil. Beis HaBechira 6:14-16, the Chasam Sofer is ALSO sover that the Raavad {who disagrees with the aforementioned Rambam} agrees on the inherent Kedusha of Yerushalayim, the machlokes is the halachic Kedusha) , but he said that it is still Kodesh, albeit in a non-halachic manner, because it is the Shaar to Shamayim. In Yoreh Deah 234, he said that the Halachic Kedusha is gone, but still there is a mitzvah to live there because there is still an inherent Kedusha in Yerushalayim that is bigger than other places, and that the inherent Kedusha is unchangable. See Tashbetz 3:201, Yechaveh Daas…
Regards, Dovid
Not to mention that a great amount of Rabbonim, both Ashkenazim and Sfaradim, thought that the creation of Israel is Atchalta deGeulah.
Dovid: If the zionists hadn’t instigated for the UN resolution to declare a State, the 6 Arab armies would not have gone to war. and the vast vast majority of gedolim were very much against the zionists.
There are clearly two distict things being asked for
God should return to Jerusalem
?????????????? ??????? ??????????? ????????. ?????????? ????????? ????????? ???????????.
And build it up
??????? ?????? ???????? ??????????? ???????? ?????. ???????? ????? ??????? ???????? ??????
As for the beggining of the geula – I made no mention. That is asked for in the Beracha of Et Tzemach David…..
Poppa, I guess you choose to omit the second half of the beracha.
And also Health, I gave you my source the beracha you say everyday. Where did you learn differently?
Yes. We ask for Hashem to return and also to rebuild.
But that doesn’t mean that rebuilding without returning is something to celebrate.
Ask yourself: Would you celebrate if the Turks had rebuilt it and not let us come? Why not? We ask for it to be rebuilt, where does it say anything about us returning.
Maybe we can’t just darshen the bracha.
Dovid S.- “Please, now you are saying what the Arabs are saying, meaning that we “deserved” to be attacked by six Arab countries all because the UN gave us a medina.”
Noone said that -so don’t put words in our mouth. Do you really think that if the Tzionim wouldn’t have armed themselves to the hilt, that the arabs would have waged war so quick? The Tzionim brought their hatred out to the surface. I got some shocking news for you – All Goyim Hate Us! So why don’t all of them attack us? Because we don’t bring out their hatred to the surface, like the Tzionim did!
The reason I quoted the Chasam Sofer as I did was because I needed it to bring out my point that L’halacha that Gemorra that says you can divorce a wife for not coming with you to Yerushalayim couldn’t possibly apply nowadays. Even if there is kedusha there -definitely not as much as before -so you couldn’t force your wife to live there or else Get!
OAC -“Poppa, I guess you choose to omit the second half of the beracha.
And also Health, I gave you my source the beracha you say everyday. Where did you learn differently?”
If you learn like me -you have no Kasha on the second half!
You misinterpret the Tefilla -so I asked you who taught you your interpretation?
Dovid -“Not to mention that a great amount of Rabbonim, both Ashkenazim and Sfaradim, thought that the creation of Israel is Atchalta deGeulah.”
Gedolim said on those who thought this -“They made a big mistake”.
Poppa,
Kibbutz Galiut? Listen you are entitled to believe that we are not halachicaly aloud to enter Israel with a government because of the Gemmorah in Kesubos. But assuming you are not Satmar, the position you are coming from is very hard to defend. The people in Israel are not the Turks they are Jews. And yes you can darshen from a beracha in the sence that that beracha is what you ask god every day. Why would you ask god to build Jerusalem if it was not a good thing. I seriously can’t believe that someone pays attention to those words in Tfilla and could say its not a good thing.
OdAmiChay- My post right before yours’ answers all your questions!
I cannot believe there is a Jew asking me to explain to him why building up the city of Jerusalem is a good thing! God promised us the land and told us to live there. Mitzva reshus, chiuv, zionism, tzionim, throw around all the words you want – its our yerusha. Unless you think it is assur to move there like satmar how can you say fullfiling the words of the Torah is bad.
you are siding with those who hate us
Shlishi did not side with them, c”v. The argument was against angering and instigating them.
Would you accept an comment claiming we instigated the holocaust.
“The Tzionim brought their hatred out to the surface.”
Ever heard of the 1929 arab pogroms? Almost 20 years before the “medina” was even created, arab savages murdered 133 Jews including 68 in Hebron just for the simple fact that they were living in the land of their Forefathers. It’s almost as if you’re making an excuse for the arab brutalities.
I think you could take the building of bayis sheini as an example.
When it was built, it was a time to rejoice. However, there were those who cried. (I can just imagine the headlines…) They cried because they remembered how much more beautiful bayis rishon was. That doesn’t mean they were unhappy about the rebuilding.
Everyone agrees that the current rebuilding is a good thing and something to be thankful and pleased about.
But if you think about what it really should be like (shechina, bayis shlishi, etc) then you don’t see a reason for celebrations. Though, again, you may be thankful about it
It’s a sad day when jews are fighting jews over the importance of Jerusalem. For the record Jerusalem is and will always be of upmost importance to us. We may not agree with everything but the fact is that the holy city is now in Jewish hands and we have to thank hashem for giving the IDF the power to reclaim it.
As for pre 48 logic, Arabs were killing Jews in Palestine before the modern state….
With so much infighting no wonder we are still in galus
look in the hakdama of tzitz eliezer chelek 10.
Pre-zionism means pre-1898, when the zionists made clear their intentions to take over Palestine from the Arabs.
I think the intention to take over the land came a bit earlier than that, like after the exodus 😉
OdAmiChai:
The best moshol I ever heard for this is a father who throws his son out of the house. The son begs to come back. Finally the father says, “Ok, you can come back, but I’m not.”
LemonySnicket – “Ever heard of the 1929 arab pogroms? Almost 20 years before the “medina” was even created, arab savages murdered 133 Jews including 68 in Hebron just for the simple fact that they were living in the land of their Forefathers. It’s almost as if you’re making an excuse for the arab brutalities.”
Mr. Snicket – Pac man is absolutely right, but the hatred really came out after the Balfour declaration (1917). So why wait to attack till ’29?
Because the English protected and favored the Jews!
The following comes from a history web site, probably Tzioni, like you:
“In 1928, there were changes in the British government and Britain began to compromise on the Balfour Declaration as they were also in need of Arab oil. The Arabs began to incite violence against the Jews in Palestine and bloodshed began in 1929”
Chacham -“look in the hakdama of tzitz eliezer chelek 10.”
Why don’t you quote what he says, most people aren’t going to look it up?
The english protected Jews? Please… heard about what happened on Ben Yehuda Street (Brits killed 51 Yidden)? Heard about how they were taking arms away from Jews so they couldn’t defend themselves? They were the ones who were vetoing a cease-fire when the Arab Legion was winning (U.S. was pushing for a cease-fire, UK vetoed because they favored Arabs, gave them arms, etc.) Yeah right, they were protecting Jews.
Shlishi/Health, sources please? I can bring you 20+ Gedolim who suppotred creation of the Medina (Not including HaRav Kook z”l). Bring sources please.
No Kedusha and still a lot of Kedusha are two very different things. My point is that you said “This probably doesn’t apply nowadays because we hold that Yerushalyim doesn’t have Kedusha nowadays. See Chasam Sofer.” Please clarify next time in order not to mislead.
Why is it you are so afraid of Arabs? HaKadosh Boruch Hu helped us in all our wars with them, even against overwhelming odds. That shows that this ‘maase satan’ got great Siyata Dishmaya. Why is it you shove back at Hashem that what he has given us? The questio: “Is it good to proclaim a Medina?” was valid then, when the Arabs went to war and it looked like a massacre of Jews would happen. But now that Hashem answered us, I think the answer is clear.
The Medina isn’t perfect, but it IS Atchalta DeGeulah, no doubt in my mind. Sources will be brought tomorrow.
BTW> Please post the entire source, not none/only part. If you post only part of a source, it is misleading. (i.e. posting that Chasam Sofer said Yerushalayim had no Kedusha)
Dovid – Partial list of gedolim against:
R. Yoel Teitelbaum, R. Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, R. Yitzchok Zev Soloveitchek, R. Avraham Yeshayahu Karelitz, R. Yitzchok Dov Koppleman, R. Michoel Dov Weissmandl, R. Ahron Kotler, R. Mordechai Gifter, R. Elya Svei, R. Baruch Kaplan, R. Amram Blau, R. Avigdor Miller, R. Yitzchok Hutner, R. Dovid Friedman (Karlin), R. Meir Smika (Dvinsk), R. Yosef Roizen, R. Dovid Freund, R. Chaim Soloveitchek (Brisk), The Chofetz Chaim, R. Shaul Broch, R. Yissoschor Dov (Belze Rebbe), R. Chaim Ozer Grozinski, R. Chaim Elozar Shapiro.
Dovid S. -“The english protected Jews? Please…”
You obviously didn’t read what I posted.
I’ll post it again -“In 1928, there were changes in the British government and Britain began to compromise on the Balfour Declaration as they were also in need of Arab oil.”
Until this time they were pro-Jews and protected them from the Arab’s wrath!
“Health, sources please” Every single Godol who belonged to the Agudah, besides Satmar, was against creating a Medina! We obviously live in different circles and have diffeent views on who are/were the Gedolim!
Shlishi, point taken. My sources are coming tomorrow.
Health, I am sure we do not. As I said, I will give you 20/30 Gedolim who supported Zionism.
(You don’t count Sfaradi/Teimani/Mizrachi Gedolim? I cn give you 15 that supported. In those circles, there was unequivocal support for Zionism)
BTW> Please answer my last point, meaning why you complain that the Zionists were “maneuvering” when they had tremendous Siyata Dishamaya. That dosen’t show you that Hashem supports a medina?
Shlishi, you got the list from Natruna?
Dovid – If you use the logic that since the State was created Hashem “supported” its creation, the same line of reasoning requires you maintain that Hashem “supported” the holocaust.
Well, HaKadosh Boruch Hu does everything for Am Yisrael. Even the Shoah was, in an indirect way, needed (Why, don’t ask, I am not HaKadosh Boruch Hu, but I believe in Gam Zu LTovah). But I think that, considering that the Medina is very successful and helping Lomdei Torah, funding Kollels, batei knesses, and Aliya (no limit on immigration, free flight {Nefesh B’Nefesh}). Comparing it to the Shoah is, in my opinion, ridiculous.
Good night to all, Dovid
regarding the din of kidsha rishona kidsha leosid lavo, the chasam sofer is k’maat a da’as yochid of the achronim to pasken that way. In teshuvas rebbi akiva eiger he writes to the chasam sofer about this inyan and argues strongly with it.
Anyone who wants a full biur in kidsha rishona can look in tzitz eliezer 10:1 where he spends 80 pages going through this topic, the kedusha of the kosel etc.
And if you say the halacha is clearly like the chasam sofer, that would permit going on to har habais which 99% of gedolei doreinu assurred.
About the above mentioned gedolim most of them did not hold it was a maaseh satan. MOst clearly the brisker rov who said if it was really maaseh soton, it would make the soton stronger than hashem (bmechitzosom Loritnz) And most of them held of living in eretz yisrael and the kedusha of yerushalayim.
The tzitz eliezer can be foound here http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14509&st=&pgnum=10
Chacham, well said. I didn’t check out all of Natruna’s sources. I realize that they are a bit…biased. ??? ???
All of them opposed its creation beforehand and all (those that were alive) opposed it afterwards. That doesn’t mean they opposed living there; but they opposed Zionism and the State.
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