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“if you saw a choshuve talmid chacham wearing jeans”
He had to do some work with his hands, either to fix something around the house or to make some money.
because people judge others by how they dress and act and people should dress and act according to how they want to be looked at.
So what you are saying is that I have to dress to your perceptions? Sorry, thats not happening. I dress according to halacha and then according to the situation I am in. I am not going to dress for your prejudices and ill concieved notions, when they arent against halacha. It might be time to be introspective and say “Why am I judging a person like this? What middah do I have to change, rather than trying to get them to change something that isnt against halacha.”
Why should my friend care what random people in Monsey think? Is he rebelling against society? NO. Is he doing anything wrong? NO. If people want to think he is doing something wrong, that is up to them. But what ever happened to being dan lekaf zechus? Especially when it comes to a non-halachic issue…
There is a difference if you see someone you know do something spitefully – for example, a teenager putting on a pair of jeans to spite his parents. The jeans arent the actual issue here, its the rebellion. Please learn to seperate the two.
SJSinNYC:
Well said. We do for G-d, not for what others think. Then again, in Flatbush they may be worried for shidduch purposes….
“and if he doesnt people will talk and it may affect his shidduchim”
THAT is the aveira, that people are talking loshon hara, rechilus, hotzaas shem ra, and those aveiras mamesh in the Torah, which says nothing whatsoever about jeans.
So what you are saying is that I have to dress to your perceptions? Sorry, thats not happening. I dress according to halacha and then according to the situation I am in. I am not going to dress for your prejudices and ill concieved notions, when they arent against halacha. It might be time to be introspective and say “Why am I judging a person like this? What middah do I have to change, rather than trying to get them to change something that isnt against halacha.”
SJSinNYC: its not even that evryone who sees s/o wearing a certain thing (like jeans) will think that they are bad or s/t like that. but they will associate the person w/ anyone else they see who looks like that/wears that. so u r connecting urself 2 those type of ppl. if u dont care, go ahead, its not a PROBLEM. just some ppl arent aware that what they wear associates them w/ anyone else like that, and dont realize what impression they are giving.
well, thats what i think.
flatbush27:
B”H I don’t live in any of those places, and live somewhere where you don’t have to answer one of these “shidduch questionnaires”. If you want to wear jeans, you will still find a shidduch (at least here).
I also believe we talk about other people less than “in town”.
I grada agree with flatbush27. I noticed some out-of-towners have a inferiority complex that they let loose by criticizing in-towners, especially Frum New Yorkers. i.e “they’re too frum”, “they’re not nice” etc.
And it usually is comically hypocritical.
New York City is a very fashion aware place.
To survive in NYC you have to be aware how you are dressed regardless of your religious affiliation.
“Dress for Success” was published in New York City.
In Town—is this a universal understanding that In Town means NY and out of town means everywhere else in the world? If so, if someone lives in Los Angeles and they are going to NY for a chasuna, and someone asks where they’re going they’re supposed to say “I’m flying to a chasuna In Town? Just curious.
Not sure how to re-route this to jeans.
I think you are being unfair to GAW. He has not been hypocritical while conversing in the coffeeroom so far. Try to understand his comment, rather than call him a hypocrite. Remember, he didnt say they DONT talk about others, just less.
i dont think gavra_at_work is contradicting her?(g_a_w’s a she? interesting that i nvr thought abt this b4) self in this case, since it was only said that they talk less, not theyre perfect or always nicer. i still see your point though
cantoresq wrote: “please explain how the uniform of many a yeshiva leit, consisting of a wrinkled white shirt, often unlaundered, a pair of trousers that have not seen an iron in months, and worn out unpolished loafers, mismatched with an ill fitting jacket and topped by a frayed worn hat, is mechubad”
I think you are taking things a little to far here. Most mainstream yeshiva bochurim wear starched shirts, ironed pants, and well-fitting jackets. (I run the cleaners in a prominent yeshiva, and you’d be surprised how much clothing is cleaned every week.) Frayed worn hats are obsolete in the yeshiveshe velt, and considered harryish, mind you. Most bochurim, even those not “into” clothes dress mentchlich and bakovodik, and i don’t think they lose that when they grow into yungeleit with wives to look after their laundry. Nor have i seen it.
Ask any bochur or yungerman. The majority of today’s bachurim would be mortified to be outfitted in your idea of their typical wardrobe.
The fact that some are spazzed and do not realize that their shirt is stained and pants are wrinkled has little if anything to do with their lifesytle.
flatbush27:
Less is a matter of degree. Based on the statement that people in those areas talk (which is pure Lashon Hara), I was nichshal and answered based on that assumption.
I should have said (and ask the mod to edit my original comment, or at least delete it):
“Chas V’Shalom that people in the chashuv (out of town) areas of Lakewood, Monsey & Baltimore talk about other people just because they wear Jeans! I am not M’kabel and ask the Mod to edit that comment.”
Unfortunately, the person who wrote that comment “got me”. Its one of the major chesronos of the coffee room that Lashon Hara sometimes slips through.
Thank you for correcting me, although (for next time) you should be aware that people who are attacked personally are usually not as ready to recognize their mistake and would rather fight since they are personally offended.
Will Hill: I can only suggest you (and I) get a map. Monsey, Baltimore & Lakewood are all OOT. Flatbush is a Safek. The only vadai is Boro Park.
Note on prior comment: lashon Hara/ Motsei Shem Ra, not getting into technical details.
flatbush27:
You know what the sad part is? I agree with you 100% that jeans are not the malbush of a dignified person. I just will not force my own chumros/gedarim on others, which is why I turn out more “left wing” when (I think) I’m more “right wing”.
I once heard from a famous rav, a mechaber of many seforim and recognized thoughout Klall Yisroel on both sides of the aisle the following statement on Rosh Hashana:
(may be quoting a little off, Bemechilas kevodo)
“People like keeping chumros. If only people would keep Shulchan Aruch instead of Chumros, Klal Yisroel would be much better off and Moshiach would come. Just the four chalakim of Shulchan Aruch is hard enough”.
I also think doing things just for the purpose of “shiduchim” is somewhat silly (as opposed to raising yourself), but others do disagree. Maybe I’ll start a new thread on that.
whats the difference between saying someone or a community is not nice, not perfect, stuck up, annoying or talks about people? NOTHING!!! they are all bad attributes!! I cannot believe some people here fail to recognize the fact that GAW’s statement was completely hypocritical.
First, GAW has shown himself to be a nice, caring person throughout his time here. You havent been here that long, so I am letting you know that. I think that alone gives him an extra moment of thought from posters to see if what he said is out of character or something.
I personally agree with that statement though. In out of town communities, every Jew is important. So they may not dress/talk/think exactly like you, but they are there. People are appreciative of everyone.
In NY, you can compartmentalize people so much because there are so many Jews. I’ve always heard that when times are bad, Jews are much better to each other. Its such a sad statement that has been proven time and time again throughout history (as a general rule, not necessarily for each person).
I personally am thankful that I don’t care what others think of how I dress. As long as I am dressing tzanua, I know I am doing the right thing. I don’t care when people judge me based on that, because I recognize it as a flaw on THEIR part, not mine.
SJSinNYC:
Thank you for your kind words, but I still should not infer anything about ANY Jewish community or person that will be taken in a bad light.
There’s a major difference between always being very well dressed and being into clothes. A person should always be well dressed. It is a Kiddush Hashem. I personally pride myself in always being tip- top. But you get another guy whose majorly into his makes and will blow his wallet to buy himself some Gucci Tie or Armani Suit- these people are living in their Chitzonoyos and that is a bad thing.
You see this contrast most by Bochrim and it’s a shame to see a Bochur majorly into his clothes always flicking dust off his jacket whilst davvening, straightening his hat which anyway took him half an hour in front of a mirror to get the exact right angle- (bit perched too one side!!!)
😉
I was once in Yeshiva and I got good eyes!!!
GAW, which “famous” rav purportedly said that? And is the quote you made precise? Because if you take out just one word (“instead”), it makes all the difference.
i no someone who is the head of a major company (worth millions of dollars) and he goes into meetings wearing jeans
Will Hill:
Due to the location of the quote, I will have to decline.
Have you got a map? Perhaps you can start a new thread.
flatbush27:
Please also be Chozer on your statement that people in those areas talk about other Yidden just because they wear jeans. There is no reason to say people in those areas are Over the Issur of Lashon Hara.
As a Gavra, I am insulted. She? 🙂
flatbush27:
I thought we were discussing family members (i.e. parents), not the man himself, of which the question is valid. Also “talk” can be misrepresented, “ask” would be better (as you point out)(and then we would not have had this whole misunderstanding!)
I am glad we agree.
Will Hill, I do not know the spource of gavra_at_work’s quote.
I do have a quote from Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz ZT”L, which was quoted in the Mishpacha article on his yartzeit.
Mishpacha issue 239, page 27, courtesy of mishpacha.com:
and one of his seatmates at the head table
made an elaborate display of retaking
maaser from the bread on the table. Reb
Chaim was allergic to public displays of
piety, especially when he felt that they
subtly touched upon it.
merits having a Rebbe; only then will he
have a mesorah and be saved from all
I spoke to one of my learned friends, who feels that jeans got associated with the hippie movement. Thus, jeans became the symbol of rebellion and prikas ol. This does NOT apply to jean skirts, as it’s not the material, it’s the jeans. Cotton pants never had that stigma, but different yeshivas have different rules on what qualifies as “Ben Torah” clothing. I’ll try speaking to a menahel. these guys get challenged on everything, and have ready answers for everything.
This does NOT apply to jean skirts, as it’s not the material, it’s the jeans.
Shouldnt that mean bell bottoms though? Its the style of hippie jeans…if the material is ok, regular jean pants should be too.
Jeans are viewed as a low-class beged of low-class people. “Hippies”isn’t completely literal. Same with camo pants.
To be clear, there is no issur deoraysah here, unless you hold that jeans are a beged meyuchad for goyim.
Again, this is pre-menahel hocking.
why are jeans considered dressing like the goyim? that is like saying every designer clothing or shoes are goyish. they are all made for the goyim and goyim wear them.
Lo shinu es malbushayhen.
Jeans?
Yilb’shee anuvim vayisbooyee
aaryd621: welcome to the CR! now start from page 1 of this thread for more on jeans!
Jean skirts are also a big NoNo in this area.
aaryd621: there’s nothing wrong with wearing jeans. Some people just impose unnecessary chumros on people, because they don’t know any better.
Feif, jeans may help identify one as a working person, someone who uses his hands to make a living, chas veshulem.
Lo shinu es malbushayhen.
So, I’m assuming that, for the same reason, you’re opposed to ties, right?
The Wolf
are you assuming that about socks as well?
are you assuming that about socks as well?
You tell me. You’re the one who said that jeans are forbidden because of Lo shinu es malbushayhen.
So, would you say that ties are forbidden for the same reason? Why (or why not)?
The Wolf
You have to put the limits somewhere.
Raboysai, stop everything!!
Please tell me I have the kovod to be the first one to point out that jeans WERE INVENTED by a fellow yid! Harav Levi Yitzchok Strauss, originally from Berditchov.
Just for a change of perspective, google ‘Levi Strauss’ to read his fascinating story.
Incredible story, except that Berdichev is not in Bavaria. Like so many fascinating chasidishe ma’aselach, the place is wrong, the name is wrong, and he wasn’t gebentsched by some unknown holy rebbe to be “matzliach in dem hoizen gesheft”. Other than that, the story is quite boring.
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