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SJS –
No, “WE” shouldn’t. It is the Gedolim and Rabbonim’s job to tell us what is goyish and/or unacceptable.
Our job is merely to listen and follow their directives.
anon I agree with you.
Joseph, the we was a general we. I generally dont pasken for us 🙂
Out of curiosity, have your rabbonim come out and said jeans are assur? Did they say jeans are preferable not to wear? Did they make any statement of any kind?
My rabbonim have no issues with jeans, hence my train of thought. I am not sure any of the rabbonim ever evaluated the plaid skirt issue (they may have, I just havent heard about it). As anon pointed out, that could actually be dangerous. Imagine if a child went over to another one and turned out she was catholic. You have a possible dangerous situation there…
ok can i ask a pretty simple question?
mayb i am wrong but i do not know of anywhere on the torah taht it says jeans are asur…but it does say vahavta lereacha komocha and im pretty sure that it does not specify whether they are wearing jeans or not…so i believe we should stop jusdging someone because they are wearing jeans and if they want to do it let them and dont change your opinion of them
and as an aside…do the gedolinm get to say about things not directly related to halcha but more of how one personally lives their life…even if it is not written in the torah or gemara?
About denim skirts: they CAN be, and often are, quite tzniusdik in cut. And a few years back Shabbos denim suit, in a dark, soft denim, were the rage. When I told my kids no they mentioned east coast relatives who dress much more tzniusdikly then we do.
I have no issues with men in jeans, davening in jeans etc., as long as they are “kempt” vs. unkempt, i.e. tucked in, shoes tied, etc. But I haven’t seen similar conservatively styled jeans- that is trousers, not skirts – for men, or women, for that matter. And as long as they’re not regulation black rayon/cotton/wool etc. blend there will be a large number of yeshivish people who will look down on them.
No, the Torah does not state specifically that one should not wear jeans, neither does the gemorra. The Torah also does not state specifically for example, what kind of linen one should put on their guest’s bed, or how big of a smile one needs when being mevaker choleh. The point being that the Torah was given to people with sechel, the Torah is our guide and we need to make choices accordingly.
The gedolim are our guides who have a much deeper sense of spiritual reality then we do (hence the name gedolim) and we need their guidance in such times. Essentially they give a sense of spiritual security in the guidance they share.
What a person wears is a message to themselves and others of who they want to be seen as. A person wearing a sailors uniform will be assumed to be a sailor. Whether we like it or not what we wear will be seen by others, and depending on how you feel about that clothing, that is the choice that the person will make. It doesn’t define your essence, it just defines on how you want to be seen.
do the gedolinm get to say about things not directly related to halcha but more of how one personally lives their life…even if it is not written in the torah or gemara?
Teen, there is a big difference between halacha, advice and societal norms.
The rabbonim 100% get to decide halacha. Then it is your choice to follow or not (preferably follow).
Advice is offered and its your choice to follow it or not. I have never heard a Rabbi say jeans are assur. They may frown upon them though as a garment that should be avoided.
Societal norms are what people do. Generally, they follow halacha but dont necessarily have any halachic basis to them. Sort of like yeshivish men wearing black and white – its what they do. Is there anything wrong with a colored shirt? No, but yeshivish men dont wear them usually. Its your choice to follow societal norms or not, remembering that people may look at you funny if you don’t adapt to the surroundings.
SJS, I wasn’t trying to imply that plaid skirts were dangerous; I think most frum students could tell the difference between a fellow student & a Catholic schoolgirl, even if they are wearing identical uniforms. I was just pointing out that many frum girls’ schools use uniforms that are not just similar but sometimes identical to those used by Catholic schools. The fact that this is done by many of the most respected frum schools implies that, generally, clothes are not considered inherently Jewish or non-Jewish. That’s the point I was trying to make.
Anon, I didnt mean to misquote you. The potentially dangerous part was mine. If only I could edit my post to say that better…
Honestly, I think it is a potentially dangerous situation. But since parents should be watching their kids, its easy enough to diffuse. I would still maintain that plaid skirts are more dangerous than jeans 🙂
SJS – If the Gedolim issue a proclamation that henceforth day is night, and night is day and you should daven Maariv at 11:00 AM followed by Krias Shma al HaMitta, then thats what it is.
Following is not a “choice”, but an obligation.
joseph, who ever said anything about night and day? as far as i know “smol” and “yemin” translate as “left hand” and “right hand” 😉
ok, i got your point
moish, you keep demonstrating you are a hidden talmid chochom!
keep up the great work.
moish, lol, you’re good, you’re good!
~a~
I love jean skirts!! (Only the nice looking ones, like the dark ones…. Not the light cut up ones)
Following is not a “choice”, but an obligation.
Joseph, perhaps this is a semantics thing. We have bechira and can choose if we want to follow halacha or not. If we choose not to follow, we are going against halacha and there are consequences to that.
As for the rabbonim saying “maariv at 11 am” – the rabbonim have leeway in how they pasken, but if they try to change something to be against halacha, you arent supposed tofollow. I could be wrong about that, but thats what I was taught (and no, I am not specifically talking about maariv at 11).
Joseph, what if the Gadol who you followed told you to stop worshiping in the temple in Jerusalem and go instead to the new temples in Dan and Beth-el? It happened before – shortly after King Solomon passed away.
SJS – The “consequences” of not following halacha is gehenim.
Joseph,
That is talking about the Sanhedrin, not rabbanim.
yossiea, being we are unfortunate not to have a Sanhedrin functioning today, the Rabbonim act in their capacity for this (and other) purposes.
That doesn’t mean the halacha applies to rabbanim. While we can make up chumras every week, we don’t make up halachas here. The halacha you mentioned applies specifically to the Sanhedrin. You can’t extend it to all rabbanim.
The rabbanim are also bound by the concept that one who adds to the halacha, detracts from it. Hashem gave us the halachas HE wasnted us to follow. he never told the rabbanim to change His perfect religion and way of life and Torah, by adding chumras.If He wanted us to do the chumras, THEY would have been the halacha m’Sinai.
there is a difference between adding to halacha and being machmir on oneself.
When one develops their sensitivities in certain areas, and prefer to be machmir it doesn’t mean one is adding to the halacha.
If He wanted us to do the chumras, THEY would have been the halacha m’Sinai.
BS”D
Many of the chumras are just that; they were proper halacha but due to economic and social hardship in Europe and the Eastern lands as well as the travails of the early emigration to the US, it was impossible to keep halacha on a proper level. Now, with economic prosperity and social freedom everywhere Jews live except Iran (and now Venezuela), we enjoy our freedom as Hashem wants us to, by giving up the phony yoke of social correctness in favor of ol malchus Shamayim. However, since there are those sincere Yidden who still live in the old times and do not realize why we have our freedom, the halachic corrections are mistakenly called chumras instead of what they are – corrections or hachzoros atoro leyoishno.
On the other hand, heterim and kulas are not meant for everyday living. They are meant for situations such as travel, interaction with secular relatives, baalei tshuva at various times in their personal development, physical and psychological limitations and illnesses L”A etc.
If the first immigrants to the US had been able to hold on to Yiddishkeit instead of kosher and Shabbos keeping Yidden having become a minority very quickly, we probably would have had cholov Yisroel, pas Yisroel, and glatt as the standard in the United States as the CY standard would have developed in 1880 and not 1955 so that the large firms would have had to have allowed mashgichim for C”Y (which is not hard anymore and one day the present situation will be fixed when a major firm goes C”Y and brings costs down).
Being machmir regarding certain areas of Avodas Hashem doesn’t mean that the halachos are being added onto.
The problem comes in when the ikur is made tofel and vice versa. But there is nothing wrong with someone being machmir l’shem shomayim.
SJS – The “consequences” of not following halacha is gehenim.
Joseph, I never stated what the consequences are, but you might not want to either. Sometimes people temporarily choose to transgress but then repent. Or their sin may not warrant gehenim. I don’t know the tabulation, but neither do you. Just realize that because of bechira we can choose to follow or not.
The problem comes in when the ikur is made tofel and vice versa. But there is nothing wrong with someone being machmir l’shem shomayim.
I agree 100%. Another problem is when people dont understand what the halacha vs the chumra is and preach it as halacha, followed by saying that those who dont follow are not following halacha. And, if you are accepting a chumra on yourself, you may want to check with a Rabbi to make sure the chumra you want to keep doesnt somehow conflict with a differnet mitzvah.
BS”D
Also, the problem here is that we (and I am the most guilty because I discussed CY in the wrong thread) are confusing halacha with minhag.
Not wearing jeans is a communal minhag but if they are clean and respectable the issur is only a communal one with no real halachic validity. (Ditto for denim skirts; I understand that some communities frown upon them as do some families, but in most places if they are clean and the right length you’re usually well within the rules).
On the other hand, going to shul in dirty jeans or hip hop styles is a bizayoin. If you are a known entity in your shul and you show up like that, unless it is obvious you’re in the middle of cleaning your home or car and you wanted to run to minyan because you might be #10, expect stares and dirty looks because you’re not treating the shul with proper respect.
KiruvWife, I mostly agree with you. Where we view things a little differently is in the inyan when someone is machmir l’Shem Shamayim, and THEN proceeds to view anyone who does NOT follow that chumrah as being less frum. And don’t say that this is not so. it happens all the time.
If there were chumrahs that were “modified” by the people because times were hard in Europe, as Itzik implies is the reason for same, then they were not chumrahs, they were the actual halacha that people were not following. Halacha msut be followed, but when mamesh chumrahs are being accepted as the “new” halacha and people are made to feel their frumkeit is lacking for not taking on those chumrahs, it creates tremendous divisiveness in the frum community, something which we cannot afford to have.
“If He wanted us to do the chumras, THEY would have been the halacha m’Sinai.”
Oomis, according to that logic, why didn’t Hashem just give us the shulchan aruch? Are we not supposed to listen to the torah shel bal peh?! He gave the rabbonim the right to interpret the torah however they see fit. If a they say something, it is the halacha.
“The problem comes in when the ikur is made tofel and vice versa. But there is nothing wrong with someone being machmir l’shem shomayim.
I agree 100%. Another problem is when people dont understand what the halacha vs the chumra is and preach it as halacha, followed by saying that those who dont follow are not following halacha. And, if you are accepting a chumra on yourself, you may want to check with a Rabbi to make sure the chumra you want to keep doesnt somehow conflict with a differnet mitzvah. “
kiruvwife and SJSinNYC, I’m with you there. If someone wants to except a chumra on themselves, good for them, but they must make sure it’s muttar, and they must not look down on those who aren’t machmar like them.
Of course we have to follow the Torah Sheb’al peh. There is a great deal of disagreement among poskim as to what the end result of certain halachos might be.
By the time most people have accepted a chumrah upon themselves, MANY people in their community have likewise done so, and then they ALL tend to forget that it is a self-imposed chumrah. They regard it as the absolute halacha. it is human nature to believe that you are better than someone else, when you do something strict that they do not. It’s kind of the way that strict vegetarians believe themselves to be superior to people who eat meat. The meat eaters are doing absolutely nothing wrong, but the people who are machmir on their own eating habits, feel greatly superior because of it.
It never seems to be about accepting a personal chumrah on oneself. My rov ZT”L was one of the few people who actually did that. He would pasken something as muttar for the person asking the shailah, though we knew he did not do it himself.
oomis–I don’t advocate people who keep certain chumros to look disparagingly at others who don’t keep the same chumros. L’shem shomayim means all angles, and surely to put others down dismisses the notion of Lshem shomayim.
I’m also not an advocate of the idea that those who don’t keep the chumros, to automatically assume that those people who have developed sensitivities in certain areas, and are machmir, are instinctively looking down on those that are not paralleling their avodas Hashem. It is important for everyone who is interesting in continuing up the ladder to be aware of their self worth, and being comfortable with increasing their sensitivities in Avodas Hashem, and not letting others derachim get in the way of growing. All must keep the lines of communication open between them and their paskining Rov.
ok back to jeans….where in he torah does it asur jeans?
teen, I guess you didn’t have a chance to read back on one of my posts-I copied part of if for you.
No, the Torah does not state specifically that one should not wear jeans, neither does the gemorra. The Torah also does not state specifically for example, what kind of linen one should put on their guest’s bed, or how big of a smile one needs when being mevaker choleh. The point being that the Torah was given to people with sechel, the Torah is our guide and we need to make choices accordingly.
What a person wears is a message to themselves and others of who they want to be seen as. A person wearing a sailors uniform will be assumed to be a sailor. Whether we like it or not what we wear will be seen by others, and depending on how you feel about that clothing, that is the choice that the person will make. It doesn’t define your essence, it just defines on how you want to be seen.
because they are not as tight as jeans
Who says jeans have to be tight? Thats a ridiculous statement. Do people wear tight jeans? Yes. Do people wear loose fitting jeans? Yes.
It doesn’t define your essence, it just defines on how you want to be seen.
Most of the time its true – sometimes however, you don’t realize the situation you walk into looks down on something (here, jeans), so you arent defining how you want to be seen.
“only for the better cause they are more comfortable because they are not as tight as jeans”
LOL!
What on earth are you talking about?
sjs-I assume you meant the people in the situation one walks into look down- a situation in and of itself can not look down at another person.
If a person is wearing something, it was only that person’s choice to wear that which they put on. Therefore, they are choosing a look. No one chooses to be looked down upon. A police officer wearing a uniform will be judged as being a police officer and can’t get offended if people judge him as being one when he is wearing a uniform.
Where I live, in the summer, almost none of the women are wearing what I am, and yes we are both hot. But just because they don’t understand tznius (yet) doesn’t mean they will not choose to look down on me. They might look down on me but so what. I’m confident in my choice of clothing for various reasons, and am not in the least bit worried at being looked down upon.
I prefer not being controversial, and much prefer being straight, and emesdik. That being said, if a person is going to wear jeans, that is a choice. They should just be cognizant of the places they wear them, and see if that is in congruance with the standards of their surroundings. I.e. it wouldn’t be suggested to wear jeans to a black tie event….and I think those of us thinking people can extrapolate further.
BS”D
although the ‘jean wearing jobs’ dont demand jeans.
They are easier to wash, and for a building contractor or tradesman or auto mechanic who needs to work on his knees in crawl spaces, the thicker fabric provides more protection.
Kiruvwife, yes the people 🙂
What I mean is this – sometimes, someone wears a pair of jeans. They are making no statement other than that they are in comfortable, durable pants. Then, they come across a situation where they are put into a situation where everyone around them looks down on jeans wearers. Is he making the statement or are they percieving his statement?
For example: you are invited to your friend’s BBQ. It was just going to be a few of his friends that you know. Normal dress code: casual (including jeans). Last minute, lost of his family stops in town and comes to the BBQ. They are more right wing and things jeans are bad. You are now the minority at the party wearing jeans and they may look down on you for wearing them. So, is the jeans wearer thats the problem or the perciever?
“it doesnt but its not bikovidig for a Jew to wear jeans unless he needs them for work although the ‘jean wearing jobs’ dont demand jeans. plenty of these people wear other pants on the job and nothing ever happened to them because of it. only for the better cause they are more comfortable because they are not as tight as jeans “
Perception is everything. A tuxedo (and even more so WHITE tie and tails) is considered to be THE most fancy bekovodig garment that a man could wear. You will probably never see a yeshivishe person or chossid put one on. Not everything that one thinks shows kovod, is necessarily understood by someone else to show kovod. When I see yeshivish camp counselors wearing their shabbos pants, jackets, and white shirts while running around in the heat playing ball with their campers, I feel that THAT is not bekovodig. It is an insult to the same clothing that they also wear for Shabbos.
The ones looking down at someone just for wearing jeans, is in the category of being judgemental, which all humans are. Being judgmental is part of our instinct and is healthy and good when used properly. If the person judging will act in a way that is not within Torah guidelines, then they need to reevaluate their premise in judging. If the judgement leads them to a place where they won’t ask that person for fashion advice, then the jeans wearer should just chill out, and not feel like every person that doesn’t wear jeans is looking down on them.
I do maintain though that choosing to wear jeans, even if just for comfort, will put a person in a certain segment of society, where clothing choice does categorize who we want to be seen as. Same with a person who will ONLY wear a white shirt and black pants. They want to be seen a certain way.
The word of the day is “bikovidig”. Let us put it into English. It means “honorable”. We just heard that some baseball player who was paid $25 million a year has admitted to using steroids. That is not bikovidig. Sometimes you have to make choices. You are a Kohen from an illustrious family but the trust fund just ran out. You have 2 choices:
A) You can continue wearing your suit and go begging.
B) You can dress down and do some manual labor which is profitable and legitimate.
According to the Gemara B) is more bikovidig than A).
wouldn’t you say that being over on an issur is not bekovidig? he never said “bekovidig” is the halachic status of the person. it’s a separate thing.
We are splitting hairs here. Something can be both assur and not bekovidig. In sports, before certain performance enhancers became formally assur they were first not bekovidig.
Here is another example: A former President earns $10 Million a year in speaking engagements. It is perfectly legal, but it lowers the status of the presidency. Begging or relying on government assistance is not assur, but it surely is not bekovidig.
I do maintain though that choosing to wear jeans, even if just for comfort, will put a person in a certain segment of society, where clothing choice does categorize who we want to be seen as. Same with a person who will ONLY wear a white shirt and black pants. They want to be seen a certain way.
I think there are certain articles of clothing that make a statement – wearing a kippah MAKES a statement. Wearing a streimel MAKES a statement. What does wearing a pair of jeans state? It could be that you are doing manual labor or maybe more modern or 100 different things. Wearing a kippah says “I am an orthodox Jew and (presumably) following halacha.”
To be more clear – its the kippah that makes a statement, not the material. My friends MO husband wears a big velvet kippah. Why? He says its the easiest kippah to find large and he wants to cover his bald spot as much as possible. When he goes to Monsey, sometimes people give him funny looks because he is wearing a big velvet kippah (and his face kind of looks chassidish – cant explain how that is exactly but he just does) so THEY think he is making a statement. Is he? No, but they percieve the statement.
“”I think there are certain articles of clothing that make a statement – wearing a kippah MAKES a statement. Wearing a streimel MAKES a statement. What does wearing a pair of jeans state?””
Wearing a pair of jeans makes the statement: “I’m comfortable wearing a pair of jeans”.
Some people are (comfortable with that), and some aren’t, and the various reasons are personal.
Just because a person is not trying actively to make a statement doesn’t mean that a statement won’t be made. Human nature is such that people will perceive what is being worn as a statement for better or for worse.
Just because a person is not trying actively to make a statement doesn’t mean that a statement won’t be made. Human nature is such that people will perceive what is being worn as a statement for better or for worse.
I think we are at semantics. I don’t think a statement is being made, just the perception of the statement. I can misinterpret many things, but it doesnt mean I am right.
Example: I see two people arguing heatedly. I percieve that they are very mad at each other. What was actually happening? They were practicing for a play. So I percieved a problem that didn’t exist.
MAYBE THERE IS A REASON WHY YOU DONT SEE ANY CHOSHUVA TALMIDEI CHACHAMIM WEARING JEANS ANYTIME OF THE YEAR
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