Jeans

frumsatire, you’re kidding about the “jeans can’t be goyishe if a Jew invented them” line, right? Because ****; **** will never be Jewish songs, even though **** wrote them. I do agree that arbitarily calling some clothes goyishe is silly though.

Josh31, I’ve worked in that type of office too. If anyone came in wearing a suit people would ask if he had a meeting with the higher-ups or ask him how his interview went.

Please do not post the names of non-jewish songs. Thank You. Moderator-55

If you wear jeans just say you wear them because you like them, don’t give an explanation. They are not appropriate attire for religious people as they are a garb of non Jews but hey if you want to wear them go ahead just don’t go on the defense.

I would like to know where you get that its not appropriate for religious people. Is it that its casual? Because then women would not be able to wear jean skirts and I never heard of them being outlawed (frowned upon in some communities, but not outlawed). SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY WOMEN CAN WEAR JEAN SKIRTS BUT MEN CANNOT WEAR JEANS (pardon my yelling, but I broached this before in this topic and no one answered).

Also, everyone talks about dressing for our King – yes we do. But there is also a level up to dress. We generally save our fancier attire for shabbos/yom tov and then even fancier attire for weddings. If you wear it all week, then on shabbos its not a special garment! So yes, I see nothing wrong with being less formal during the week.

“If you wear jeans just say you wear them because you like them, don’t give an explanation. They are not appropriate attire for religious people as they are a garb of non Jews but hey if you want to wear them go ahead just don’t go on the defense.”

Jeans are comfortable, and they take a lot of abuse. They’re great to wear casually.

As far as appropriateness, well, there are jeans and then there are jeans. Regular Levis. if you don’t wanna wear them, OK! If you do, also OK! But, once you start sifting through the fad brands and styles, ripped, logos, etc, then I’d be hard pressed to say those are NO PROB and also be intellectually honest. Plus I think regular ol’ Levis look way better. Full disclosure – I do wear jeans, weekends and Fridays.

rumsatire, you’re kidding about the “jeans can’t be goyishe if a Jew invented them” line, right? Because ****; **** will never be Jewish songs, even though **** wrote them. I do agree that arbitarily calling some clothes goyishe is silly though.

Josh31, I’ve worked in that type of office too. If anyone came in wearing a suit people would ask if he had a meeting with the higher-ups or ask him how his interview went.

Please do not post the names of non-jewish songs. Thank You. Moderator-55

Moderator exactly what is a Jewish song?

It seems that if a frum artist illegally copies a non-Jewish song and makes the lyrics yiddish thats ok – but if someone like Paul Simon creates his own song that its not Jewish. Seems a little strange dont you think

frumsatire- wrong topic

moish- i’m going to have cardiac arrest! You can’t do this to me. I will personally come and take that gun if you even THINK of DREAMING of taking that yarmulka off your head. Do you hear me loud and clear?

My stomach is in knots- please tell me you didn’t take it off…

BS”D

It depends who you are and what you do. If your community allows them and they are clean and respectful then so be it. If you are wearing them as a sign of rebellion, then you will be treated accordingly.

However, many haimish contractors, repairmen, building supplies dealers, food preparers/butchers etc wear jeans to work and I do not see how they can change for mincha in the winter nor would they be expected to.

because how are jean skirts goyish. goyish women dont wear jean skirts (usually). goyish men wear jeans.

Many goyish women wear jean skirts, especially in the african american communities. Why do you think many main stream stores sell them? Whenever I am looking for jean skirts, I find them at regular stores (I don’t shop in Jewish clothing stores that often because of the price).

I was under the impression its the material thats the issue. After all, there are many mens pants made out of non jean material that follow “jeans” patterns and many pants made from denim that are made with a tailored look. So, is it the material thats the issue or the pattern? If its the material, then women wouldnt be able to wear jean skirts. If its the pattern, then tailored jeans should be appropriate. Please clarify.

I very much agree with Itzik’s post above. I would just add that no one should look down on someone who comes from a community that allows jeans, just accept that its not something you would wear.

moish01: you are a real member of the cr gang, we all care about you!!! just the idea of you saying what difference does it make if i take off my yarmalka-you wouldn’t ever know i was a jew w/o it!!! moish moish moish-we care so so much about you, it hurts us when you say such things like that!!! you are a yid, a yid-all yidden are different!!! in my heart, i just know that one day you’ll be this amazing person, one that we all would be so proud of!!!(i gatta say this has got to be the toughest cr day, with ames’s & squeak’s departure-i’m just in this mood of saying what’s on my mind!!!)

because how are jean skirts goyish. goyish women dont wear jean skirts (usually). goyish men wear jeans.

WHAT????????????? ALL types of women wear jeans skirts. I am surprised you think otherwise.

anyway this thread could get an update???? thanx mod72!!!

asdf I just noticed something very wierd (well maybe not so wierd but funny anyway) the older threads were updated but the time satyed the same only the username was changed. the consequences of not having a mod on for several hours.

Jeans are goyish – some denim skirts are also. But, as there are so many other materials available why go for denim if you know it’s not appropriate? As I said if you want to wear jeans – fine wear them because you like them but don’t say they are appropriate attire – cos they’re not.

Jeans have become a symbolic form of clothing of “Hey, I’m really cool in how I dress, I’m in with the in crowd”

The way a person dresses says a lot about him/her. When I interview someone I always look at how they are dressed – it says something and very often gives me an insight into their character. Taste does not come into the equation here it’s what lies behind how they present themselves that talks to me

Also business casual does not allow Jeans (even w/o a suit).

Where I work, jeans are acceptable business casual wear in certain departments (such as mine). The reason this is allowed is so that when you are called out to the field (power plants, steam plants, substations etc) that you can still go without changing much (just changing into safety shoes).

SJSinNYC, of course on shabbos you should dress more formally than during the week. So on shabbos wear a suit, and during the week wear dress shirt/pants (assuming you’re male). However, you still shouldn’t be dressed informally when davening during the week.

Where I live, many men come to shul in khakis and a sports jacket on Shabbos. They will show up to shul in jeans, because its what they wear. I don’t have a problem with it, so long as the jeans arent the ripped/torn ratty looking ones. I do understand that others want to always be more formal, which is fine, but sometimes what I see men wearing to shul (although the material may not be denim) is the same level of casualness as jeans, just in a different color (for example, casual black pants).

Jeans are goyish – some denim skirts are also. But, as there are so many other materials available why go for denim if you know it’s not appropriate? As I said if you want to wear jeans – fine wear them because you like them but don’t say they are appropriate attire – cos they’re not.

Please clarify – is it the material that is goyish or the style of pants? If its the material, then no jean skirts would be ok for women.

I have no problem if you think that you wouldnt wear them, but calling saying they are inappropriate attire across the board (IMHO) is a misnomer.

Jeans have become a symbolic form of clothing of “Hey, I’m really cool in how I dress, I’m in with the in crowd”

In certain crowds this is true (and Itzik referenced this nicely above), but in my community jeans are normal attire. So wearing them is not a statement in any way. Walking into a yeshivish shul in jeans may be (depending on the situation) making a statement.

Nobody: denim is not connected with a goyishe form of dress. I don’t know where you get that idea from, but it’s wrong. Many people where denim, both Jewish and non-Jewish. I’ve been over to my Rebbe’s house and saw his wife wearing a denim skirt.

Wearing ripped, frayed jeans made especially that way is a different issue – not because it’s goyish, but because it doesn’t look presentable. You can look presentable in a normal pair of jeans.

I usually wear jeans on weekends because I do some work around the house. Jeans are comfortable, durable, and wash out easily. Do they get faded? Of course, all clothing does. The difference is that with other pants, as they fade, the material wears out also, so they don’t reach a point where they’re really faded. Jeans last longer, and can reach a stage where they’re extremely faded out.

Actually the only clothing I’ve seen Jewish people wear that I connect with goyishe forms of dress are certain plaid skirts, as I’ve stated above. It seems to me that this type of clothing is nevertheless considered acceptable for Jewish girls’ school uniforms simply because it’s convenient for the students to be able to buy from larger suppliers, and because there really is nothing inherently wrong with plaid skirts. Many people view wearing jeans the same way.

What I meant was that denim in itself is now connected with goyshe forms of dress.

I understand where you are coming from, though I disagree with you. You probably would have been part of the groups that ridiculed German Jews for wearing “short jackets” when they started, which is part of mainstream society now. We can agree to disagree on this point, because there are many things that I would put as “goyish” over denim. I am glad that at least you are consistent and think women shouldnt wear denim either.

As for style – there are MANY subjective areas of style as to whether or not its kosher, and this is often on a Rav by Rav basis what is paskened as ok or not. The point I was asking for is just to clarify if its the denim material, rather than the casual style of the pants. People seem to be jumping back and forth here and not really saying one, the other or definitively both. Nowadays, many jeans are made in trouser styles so that they are much more formal.

You mention that in your community jeans are enormal attire, please do forgive me here but that is not normal attire unless the person does not know that there is or should be a dress code for shul.

We are definitely going to have to disagree here. Many of the men who come to shul in jeans, usually on sunday, because that is their day to do things. This includes mowing the lawn, taking the kids to the park, hiking etc etc. Constantly changing clothing all day long just doesnt make sense. Also, they don’t wear ripped/stained/dirty clothing to shul, just more casual. And they need the casual clothing for their activities of the day.

You don’t have to worry about offending me (or my community) if you want to respond. As long as you speak nicely (as you generally do), its OK to disagree with me. I am generally the minority here, and have no problem with that!

To YW Moderator-21: Please check your sources. “Dungarees” comes from one of the Indian languages (i.e., the subcontinent of Asia, not “Native American”), and may have nothing to do with dung.

Does a Jewish laborer, chef, carpenter or mason have to wear a black suit and white shirt on the job? I do not think so.

” In the times of the gemara, only the rabbonim wore them. “

So what did the rest of the guys put on their heads? Guaranteed there were no Borsalinos in those days.

People have correctly posted that jeans were invented by a Jew, Levi Strauss.

People have also pointed out that chassidim adopted the garb of the Polish non-Jews, and looking at them today, one would never know that their levush is non-Jewish in origin.

So which form of dress is goyish and which is not? When the chassidic garb was adopted, it was during “modern” times for those chassidim (though it is the past history for us). So they actually were wearing modern-day non-Jewish clothing. AMAZING! And yet, when someone points out that the subject of some 135-140 posts were actually invented by a Yid, there are people who adamantly refuse to admit that this is so. And the argument that certain winter non-Jewish hioliday songs were written by Jews shows that that does not automatically confer Jewish status on something, is misleading. Those songs clearly and absolutely are defined by their non-Jewish holiday content. Unless I see a tzeilem or some other clearly non-Jewish icon on those jeans, I have no reason to follow that same line of thought as the music issue provoked. Clothing made by a Jew is Jewish clothing, unless there is reason to think otherwise. whether or not one chooses to wear it, is that person’s personal preference. it can be a matter of taste or the feeling that it is more religiously decorous, but it is not something that should be referred to as “goyishe clothing,” in my opinion.

you wear jeans and a hat?? wow you’re more confused than i am!

what a question!

oomis, by giving that example I was trying to say that an invention or idea isn’t inherently Jewish simply because a Jew thinks of it, nor is it inherently “goyish” if the inventor/ composer/ writer isn’t Jewish. Is the theory of radiactivity (discovered/ studied by Pierre & Marie Curie) somehow less Jewish than the theory of relativity? I wasn’t trying to be flip, just giving an example to make my point, which is that even if jeans were invented by a non-Jew that in itself doesn’t make them goyish. And if plaid skirts aren’t considered goyish just because they’re worn by Catholic schoolgirls, surely jeans aren’t goyish either.

Joseph, maybe, but it doesnt make it treif either.

I agree with Anon – if we allow (and often require) our children todress like catholic school girls, maybe we should reevaluate whats “goyish”

not everything in this world has to be a “jewish thing”