- This topic has 90 replies, 41 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 8 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
“”Some jeans are tight fitted, with holes in the knees, is this kovod haTorah?”
No more or less kavod hatorah that a black felt hat bent out of shape, a white shirt that testifies to this mornings breakfast or a pair of black pants that would benefit from a visit to the washing machine.”
Silly straw man comment.
Let’s pose it the correct way. A white shirt and dark pants worn as intended or the torn tight jeans(sold that way) worn as intended. Yes there are people who could benefit from being a “bit” neater. But that is equally true for all groups.
The point is that the Jeans begin at a much lower point on bakovodik attire.
If you think that is not true, why don’t you look at the dress policy at any professional office. There is professional attiren !usiness casual,dress down and way at the bottom you get jeans.
Loyal Jew: I hope you were just joking,if you weren’t you should read the igros moshe on this inyun.
“Let’s pose it the correct way. A white shirt and dark pants worn as intended or the torn tight jeans(sold that way) worn as intended.”
Surely you are aware that jeans are sold in many other styles. Tight and/or torn are not the only jeans sold in stores. One can purchase black cotton pants that are tighter than the jeans you dont like, does this move black cotton pants down on your bakovidik scale?
While you are free to disagree, I dont think many people will assert that the yeshiva “uniform” has to do with bakovidik as much as it does uniformity which in turn answers the question of the OP. When part of the herd, one follows the herd (this is not a statement of right or wrong).
Many people (especially what I have seen with Israelis) wear extremely tight black pants and tight white shirts, so tightness is not the issue. Also the shoes are so point and hair slicked with the hat worn in a cool manner-is that kavod hatorah or just for one’s own personal looks? Either way, when one dresses in a kavodik manner it reflects on his behavior and what he represents. Jeans are a clothing used for a casual manner and not a kavodik way to express oneself to the world.
“Jeans are a clothing used for a casual manner and not a kavodik”
Tell that the many corporate executives who appear frequently in public wearing jeans (you can google many pictures online if you so choose). Again, not all jeans are the tight, torn variety. You can even find “dressy jeans” sold in stores. If you feel that they are not appropriate, by all means, dont wear them. Many people disagree with you though and wear them even when they are not in casual mode.
Can you please clarify how or why casual and bakovodik are mutually exclusive?
The Ben Ish Chai HaKodosh (Ben Yehoyada Bovo Metzio 61b) says the indigo plants they used for fake Techelies were Achuz by the Sitra Achra. 50+ years ago they used to use **that** plant in order to make LEVI’s jeans.
apush- The fact that the world has lost sight of how to behave in a bakovidik’ manner doesnt mean we have to. The same way you wouldnt wear shorts to kol nidrei; although permissible, it just doesn’t feel right. Lihavdil, a president or CEO who lacks chashivus for himself and wears jeans doesn’t mean that they are bakovidik. When the goyish world still had some morals you wouldn’t catch an executive out of a suit.
You avoided the question. Why are casual and bakovidik mutually exclusive? Casual does not mean a lack of self worth either. Shlumpadik does.
It is nice everyone has come up with some sort an answer.
I have to tell you that jeans are not acceptable in my experience.
When I go shopping in town on a Sunday, when I am more chilled out and just want to put on some pre-BT clothes, women pull their children away from me in the stores, no one holds the door open for me, and I get dirty looks.
It is a WAY different experience when I am in white shirt and black pants.
In fact, even wearing a baseball hat with an athletic team emblem on it seems to put me on a lower madraga in the eyes of others.
Only you reading this would know how you would react to me in jeans, baseball hat, and chas veshalom cut offs in the summer time.
Also, while people can do it, I would not go to a minyan or anything like that in jeans.
Now, when you add to the mix a yeshiva bochur weaing jeans? Of course it is an issue; a BIG issue. Again, only you know how you would react to seeing a bochur on your block wearing blue jeans.
Strut at your own risk!
Hi feif un.
Leather jackets for a bochur?
What kind are you thinking about? I have owned many kinds and gave up looking for the perfect one, but I cannot imagine what would be suitable for a yeshiva bochur.
Not for nothing, but there was a time, on this very site, people discussed deviating from wearing a white shirt.
Careful thought was put into each answer.
Now we are all gung-ho about jeans, leather jackets, and boots for yeshiva boys and guys? lol
Forest for the trees, my friend.
BTGuy: I don’t think that’s true. If I had to guess, I’d say you’re projecting how you look at yourself on others (or you’re in a community which looks down on that type of dress, in which case your logic is circular).
People have written here that jeans are for the the lowest rung of society, why is it surprising that “women pull their children away from me in the stores, no one holds the door open for me, and I get dirty looks.”
apush- you just made up a word. congrats. no, they arent exclusive, but jeans are still a no go. theres a difference between self-worth and dressing the part of a ben torah. jeans dont qualify.
Hi Sam2.
It is nice to took a wild guess at thinking what I said is not true, especially since you have no direct or indirect evidence to support your guess. BUT, you have your right to flip a coin on what you “want” to think, and to post what you like, and that is a wonderful thing.
Please explain the circular reasoning behind my stated experience. I dont see it.
Can you break down the syllogism of what I stated to support your rebuttal as being circular reasoning? And is circular reasoning necessarily, and I am not agreeing with you on your point, but is circular reasoning enough to make ones statement fallacious?
Speaking of logic, are you introducing an assumption that I am prone to bubba meisa and lies?
I dont know Sam2. Sounds like you have an emotional investment in your rebuttal to me and not one based on fact, or my facts.
: )
How you dress is important
people are correct, I respect people who wear a suit and white shirt to shul on shabbos vs wearing jeans.
However if you are a Plumber and you come to me wearing suit pants and a white shirt, I will not exactly trust a plumber who does not come dressed like a plumber should
TOI: I did not, and will not, advocate a yeshiva bachur wear jeans into the beis medrash for afternoon seder (although I feel he can shteig just fine if he did). However, I am saying (and you will probably still disagree with me) that I see no problem, with a yeshiva bachur wearing a pair of jeans when he is playing ball, helping his father clean the car for pesach or when engaged in a similar activity.
Your last statement, is not what you have been saying until now. Until now you equated jeans with lower elements of society and not bakovidik, therefore I asked you why they were mutually exclusive. Now, you are using the “uniform” argument. I am stating that I believe there are times when they are appropriate.
SO at the end of the day whats better, untucked white shirt black pants (b/c tucked in white shirt is obviously the best), dressy jeans (because normal jeans are obviously the worst), or cargo pants
Hi Z.
What you said pretty much sizes it all up. You should have posted the first post. lol
In New Square all the Skvere chasidim wear boots on shabbos.
Hi MonseyFan.
Boots? As in sideburns?
I think there is an ambiguous understanding of boots, and they have all been spoken about here: snow boots, rain boots, dress boots totally appropriate with a suit, Doc Martin type construction boots, pointed toed motorcycle boots with or without large buckles and leather strap accessories, casual suede boots etc..
But how about this? What about bochurim wearing jewelry like leather wrist bands, gold chains, metal wrist band, gold chain and ornament or a Chai for around the neck…or even a gold initial ring…or rings of sapphire, etc.
BTGuy: My point was that if you’re in a community that has decided to look down on jeans that’s why “mothers pull children away from you” when you where jeans, and therefore you (and the community) see jeans as being something that shows a person a mother should keep their kids away from, which is because the community looks down on jeans, which is because jeans show something bad about the person, which is because people look down on jeans, etc.
I believe that you think what you said it true based on your experiences. You view yourself in a certain way when you wear jeans and therefore think that everyone else views you in the same way.
My real problem is this: far too many people in Yiddishkeit nowadays decide that whatever they’re uncomfortable with is Assur. What happened to just not doing something that you feel is a Nisayon for you? I have a Nisayon with problem Y. So I know for myself to avoid situations where Y could occur. Does that mean that I have to try and get the whole world to think that Y is Assur? Apparently, many people here (and throughout the Frum world) think yes. Rav Schachter always quotes the Mesilas Yesharim that someone has to realize what his Nisyonos are and make Gedarim for himself to avoid falling in. And this Nisyonos are different for every person. So why is it that everyone suddenly thinks that if they have a Nisayon they have to make a Geder for the whole K’lal? I would never tell you to wear jeans. You see a problem with yourself when you wear jeans. It makes you feel lower about yourself and more willing to do improper things. Okay, so now that you realize that you should choose not to wear jeans. That doesn’t, however, mean that it has the same effect on everyone (or anyone) else. So don’t wear jeans. But don’t tell everyone else that they shouldn’t either (which was very much the vibe I got from your post). That was my point.
“SO at the end of the day whats better”
My vote is for a white shirt tucked into a pair of dressy cargo jeans.
If you wear nice regular jeans (no holes) I dont see any problem. A yeshiva bachur shouldn’t wear it because we have accustomed that it’s not for a yeshiva bochur, for anyone else, I see no problem!
apush- you clearly did not read my earlier post where i said that every attire has its proper time. if you feel the need to wear jeans when cleaning for pesach, fine. If youre a plumber, go for it. My argument about it being a lower class beged was for everyday use, if your profession doesnt require it. Glad to have made myself clear. The uniform thing shtams from the fact that its more bekovidik’.
“The uniform thing shtams from the fact that its more bekovidik’.”
It shtams from the fact that it is uniform. If more bakovidik was the criteria, then a suit and tie would be the uniform. Perhaps a tux and tails.
I didn’t say the most bekovivke clothes known to Man. The standard uniform of a yeshivamann is comrised of clothes that (until the world lost its mind) were considered the most respectable everyday wear. I’m not arguing anymore, you get my point, you just want to nitpick.
“until the world lost its mind”
styles are constantly changing, what was considered respectable 100 years ago is not necessarily what is considered respected now just like clothes from 200 years ago wasnt respectable 100 years ago. In the last few years especially jeans has become a perfectly acceptable style of clothing for everyday use. The only argument against yeshiva bochurim wearing jeans is that its not the accepted uniform plain and simple. It is possible to wear a nice pair of jeans and look just as respectable as someone wearing dress pants. Nobody’s trying to nitpick just stating the facts
Hi Sam2.
You made a lot of good points, but I have to say I know I am the same person no matter how I dress. I am not projecting anything. That is the response I get. Nothing is imagined.
I will tell you the same community has many families “afraid” of goyim, in the same way. Also, when I had a guest visit me with a nice, pet dog, and they needed to walk it, people were fearful and went to the other side of the street.
Additionally, a lady came out of her door and yelled at us that they don’t have dogs around here and the kids were throwing rocks.
These few things; “goyish” dress, pet animals, are dealt with differently in a frum community because of some cultural norms that have developed. Again, nothing is imagined.
I have to share with you that my search into Torah is primarily for the spiritual, the social aspect has many beautiful things, too, but also I have experienced things and heard ideas from some people that are thoroughly rude and unacceptable.
Sometimes, some of the people and the religion they represent are not in sync. But for me, that has nothing to do with the truth and beauty and awesomeness of Hashem and Torah.
far east- And, obviously, I disagree.
BTGuy: You saw kids throw rocks at someone and you still want to defend the community’s standards as a whole?
Its not kavod for the Beis Midrash.
Hi Sam2.
Yes. I do.
How can we not defend our religion and community as a whole just because an individual or individuals fall short of what we expect from them, or even do horrendous things or display horrendous attitudes?
Also, it happened again this week. I have had a cold and been going out in jeans, military coat (I was not in the military though) because it is warm, sneakers, and a baseball hat.
People acted like I was not there or part of the oilam.
When I dress in white shirt and black pants, people are always introducing themselves asking for all kinds of information from me and then inviting me over for a meal.
That never happens when I am seen dressed otherwise.
lol..ok, enough of that topic.
BTGuy: You’re still a Jew. I see that as a Chisaron in your community (no community is perfect though; Hal’vei that’s the worst of your community’s problems), not your dress. Especially if you were sick. It’s not like you were doing it to cause trouble.
wanna know why i hate threads like these?
no?
well im gonna say why anyway.
heres how they go:
“is it mutar to wear jeans?”
“yeah sure, why not?”
“its asur! its not a yiddishe levush!”
“thats ridiculous…its durable work clothing…”
“ok, but only in the workplace”
“what makes one more acceptable than the other”
INSERT RANDOM DISTINCTION HERE
“but what about (insert controversial article of clothing here)”
“thats also assur”
“why”
APPLY LATHER RINSE REPEAT
want to know what these threads always boil down to? why YOU wear the clothes you wear, to make a statement or to be comfortable. so please…can you all stop the childish bickering? when im bored at work i want interesting threads to post on!
If your reason for not wearing jeans is because it is goyish, then the same argument can be made about eating chocolate, since it was first discovered by the native population in Mexico
“I’m not arguing anymore,”
Discussion is much better.
There is nothing wrong with wearing jeans and if people mistreat you for wearing them then they are wrong because you are a jew and they should treat every jew properly. Not just those that dress the same as they do.
If your reason for not wearing jeans is because it is goyish, then the same argument can be made about Speaking ENGLISH
zdad-your arguments are always so compelling.
as much as it should be accepeted, we all know that the reality is it will always be looked down upon in some comunities, and people will always argue that its “goyish” clothing, whatever that means…
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.